complain all you want about the coaching, but

[dave mcbride]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it. the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound.

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster. you can't blame mularkey for that. but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking.

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

[dib]

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely.

 

Yes, I still would have. There is an old saying about pass plays. "Only three things can happen when you pass, and two of them are bad."

[zow2]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

 

Thank you for the intelligent post and not the knee-jerk reaction we always get on this board regarding play calling. I've said it time and time again that the play calling is not much different than every other successful team in the NFL. Moreover, in order for JP to succeed they MUST keep him away from obvious passing situations. Everyone wants Willis, Willis, Willis,...but that only gets JP into 3rd and 5 and 3rd and 6 a bunch of times. HE is going to fail in too many of those situations. Our coaching staff realizes this and tries to utilize JP when he has the best chance to succeed (1st and 2nd down passes). We needed a TD down there and passing on 1st down was the best, most opportune time to do it. The guy was open, it was a poor pass, get over it. The Bills are having mega problems running the ball in from anywhere in the red zone. They needed to put Miami away and the gods of football had other ideas. I can't blame coaching for every play call that fails. Every play is designed to work if executed properly.

[bluv]

This is one of the few times I don't find as much fault with the coaches; it was all on JP. If he completes that pass the game really is over and we would be writing about the day JP had and how the coaches had the killer instinct and confidence in JP and blah, blah, blah. The coaching staff biggest problem was playing NFL like a Madden videogame by just calling plays and experimenting instead of trying to win and finish the game. Just imagine if we had agood coaching staff who knew how to work magic and make the opponents adjust to our game. Think about it, we were 2nd before the game started probably number one after in points scored in the 1st quarte and opening drives. What if we had a coaching staff who knew how to manage games after getting a quick lead versus one that tinkers with success and play around with this or that and then forget what got them on the board in the 1st place. In the beginning it was McGahee having successful run but the coaches not sticking with it and now this. What if the passing game with Evans and Mouds having good games could be combined with a good WM running game? All we can do is imagine for it will never happen with this coaching staff and they will not force the D to adjust as they will make it easy and do that for them!

[The Dean]

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling?

521378[/snapback]

 

 

Well you know my answer to the question posed above...God damned right I'd complain about the call...even if it WAS successful. While that play is a standard (not a "trick") play, it was the absolute wrong call GIVEN THE SITUATION. 1st and goal, up by that many points, was NOT the time to put the ball in the air. Futhermore, if I'm the OC or HC, I want to get Willis the TD there...and I have at least 3 plays to do it (maybe 4). Stupid, dumb-ass, not paying attention to the game call. I was scraming at the TV the sceond JP went back to pass.

 

I tell ya, I'm really statring to sour on MM...but I'm not calling for his head just yet.

[Dawgg]

That was a horrible call, given the score and the point in the game. Absolutely horrbile and that is not a knee-jerk reaction.

 

If this were the West Coast offense or some derivitave of the run and shoot, I can understand it. But that is not the identity of this offense. It's wrong on many levels.

 

1. This offense is designed to run the ball, play physical football and force the issue even if teams know that a run is coming.

 

2. We have a franchise back who can move the line of scrimmage. By passing on first down, coaches are basically saying they don't think our back can gain 3 yards given 3 chances.

 

3. They had a lead. All the more reason to protect the football and ensure that we put points on the board (be it 3 or 6).

 

4. Yes, had the play succeeded nobody would be complaining. BUT THE PLAY FAILED. And failed miserably. Why? The coaches decided to get cute. The percentage play with a lead, a young QB and the best RB in the NFL, is to run run run at the goal line.

 

In short, I think it was a stupid call and felt that way the moment I saw Losman execute the fake. Thats just me though

 

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

[KOKBILLS]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

 

 

You are looking at that Play as one Play in a Game rather than looking at the Game Management as a whole...It's not the Play it's the Game strategy and not understanding that in that situation a FG MUST BE ASSURED...It's a 23 point lead instead of a 20 Point lead...it is significant...You assure the 3 points reasonably by Running the Ball all 3 downs, and who knows, maybe you get 6...But you have to have 3...

 

So, Woody Hayes or not, you take the slightest possibility of either A) An INT..., or B) A blown Blocking assignment that leads to a QB fumble, completely out of the equation...That is Coaching...It has nothing to do with if the Play may or may not have worked...It has everything to do with when the Play was called...

[dave mcbride]

You are looking at that Play as one Play in a Game rather than looking at the Game Management as a whole...It's not the Play it's the Game strategy and not understanding that in that situation a FG MUST BE ASSURED...It's a 23 point lead instead of a 20 Point lead...it is significant...You assure the 3 points reasonably by Running the Ball all 3 downs, and who knows, maybe you get 6...But you have to have 3...

 

521454[/snapback]

i disagree. i'd rather go for the kill and have a 28 point lead, and i strongly believe that play action is generally a safe call. turnovers can happen on running plays too, you know. also, the bills haven't scored a rushing touchdown in weeks, and its not for lack of effort. it's because of a weak running game inside the red zone that generally moves backward once it gets close.

 

as for dawgg's comment:

 

"1. This offense is designed to run the ball, play physical football and force the issue even if teams know that a run is coming.

 

2. We have a franchise back who can move the line of scrimmage. By passing on first down, coaches are basically saying they don't think our back can gain 3 yards given 3 chances."

 

i'd answer that a: you may think it's designed to run the football, but it sure doesn't act like a team that's designed to run the football. in fact, they've run it a ton in the last couple of weeks, but they haven't managed to move the ball effectively. as for mcgahee being a franchise back, i'll grant that he's pretty good, but he ain't all that, and he certainly hasn't performed all that well lately.

[KOKBILLS]

i disagree. i'd rather go for the kill and have a 28 point lead, and i strongly believe that play action is generally a safe call. turnovers can happen on running plays too, you know.  also, the bills haven't scored a rushing touchdown in weeks, and its not for lack of effort. it's because of a weak running game inside the red zone that generally moves backward once it gets close. 

 

as for dawgg's comment:

 

"1. This offense is designed to run the ball, play physical football and force the issue even if teams know that a run is coming.

 

2. We have a franchise back who can move the line of scrimmage. By passing on first down, coaches are basically saying they don't think our back can gain 3 yards given 3 chances."

 

i'd answer that a: you may think it's designed to run the football, but it sure doesn't act like a team that's designed to run the football. in fact, they've run it a ton in the last couple of weeks, but they haven't managed to move the ball effectively.  as for mcgahee being a franchise back, i'll grant that he's pretty good, but he ain't all that, and he certainly hasn't performed all that well lately.

521468[/snapback]

 

With all due respect, you just don't get where I'm coming from on this...And you obviously never will...Just like the differences in NFL Teams, the differences in good and poor coaching is razor thin...It is usually the small things, the little details and decisions that make the big differences in the long run...

 

MM just does not have what it takes to be a Top NFL Head Coach...He is not that far removed from the problems that GW had...Decent Coordinator, not a HC...Maybe it's one Play, maybe it's more than that...Maybe I'm wrong...but I doubt it...

[CoachChuckDickerson]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

 

You seem to be neglecting the fact that it was first and goal from the 3. Sure a lot of teams run play action on first and goal if they are at the 9,8,7,6,5 and maybe even the 4. Running it from the 3 is just moronic.

[Blue Chipper]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

 

 

I could not disagree more. It's 1st and goal not third and goal. Maybe if you are stuffed or thrown for a loss on the 1st two downs you put it up. But MM didnt even try to run it in the endzone. Good teams run it down your throat or atleast attempt to run the ball when you are that close. Plus it was a sideline throw which is longer than any throw on the field and gives the db more time to brake on the ball. A tight end dump or even a quick slant in would be a safer throw than that. Ive said it before I would run the ball anytime you are inside the 5. It's up to your o-line and rb to come up with a score.

[Simon]

With all due respect, you just don't get where I'm coming from on this...And you obviously never will...

I think he understands perfectly well where you're coming from. I also think that he just happens to disagree with your desire for the staff to go into a little shell and start coaching against the scoreboard with a full quarter and a half left to play.

I happen to fully agree with him and view your desire to take the air out of the ball with 20:00 left to play to be nothing more than coaching not to lose. And I don't want teh Bills staff caoching scared, and I don't want them coaching against teh scoreboard in the middle of the game, and I don't think umpteen posts lamenting a perfectly normal call in the middle of the 3rdqrtr are a a reasonable response to the Bills willingness to do something that a lot of good teams regularly do.

Just because he/we disagree(s) with your philosophy, doesn't mean that you have some special insight that we're too stupid to understand. It just means that we disagree.

[gggbills]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

 

You may be right, good teams with good offenses. You know what I am going to say next, so here it is.....We are not a good team, we do not have a good offense. And, we have a bad OL. JP had already fumbled the ball once in the red zone, and a call like that could have easily turned into a 10 holding flag on anyone of our great OLinemen. 3 runs and FG would have put that game way. I do not understand why a coach would call a run on 3rd and 10 from the 50 yardline with 2:16 remaining in the 4th (with our 2nd string RB no less), when you MUST get a 1st down to end the game, but that same coach cannot run the ball on 1st and goal from the 3.

 

It was a bad call to go with the other bad calls MM has made. Sometimes just plain old 3 yards and a cloud of smoke works better than having someone who broke their wrist take a direct snap from center and throw the ball. It is almost as if MM cannot have success unless it is done in some tricky way, otherwise he does not enjoy it. I liked MM when he got here, but I am sick of him now.....time for him to go

[KCNC]

Agree with Dawgg.

 

No way do you pass in that situation. Run three times and if you don't get it in, take the field goal. That's what Marv would have done. Instead we give them the momentum and the rest is history.

 

I think he understands perfectly well where you're coming from. I also think that he just happens to disagree with your desire for the staff to go into a little shell and start coaching against the scoreboard with a full quarter and a half left to play.

I happen to fully agree with him and view your desire to take the air out of the ball with 20:00 left to play to be nothing more than coaching not to lose. And I don't want teh Bills staff caoching scared, and I don't want them coaching against teh scoreboard in the middle of the game, and I don't think umpteen posts lamenting a perfectly normal call in the middle of the 3rdqrtr are a a reasonable response to the Bills willingness to do something that a lot of good teams regularly do.

Just because he/we disagree(s) with your philosophy, doesn't mean that you have some special insight that we're too stupid to understand. It just means that we disagree.

521509[/snapback]

[SouthernMan]

look around the league -- good teams with good offenses regularly call play action passes on first and goal. it's a very safe play at least in theory, and 1st down is the time to do it.  the point of the game is to score as many points as possible, which is what the bills were trying to do. it's not a "trick" play and isn't unsound. 

 

moreover, if the play had succeeded, would anyone here have complained about it as bad playcalling? not likely. i had certain problems with the actual pass play called, but part of that was a function of the lack of a capable tight end on the roster.  you can't blame mularkey for that.  but in any event, the receiver was open and it should have been a td. all the complainers also seem to be forgetting the problems the bills have had moving the ball on the ground inside the 20 because of the crappy run blocking. 

 

geez - i feel like this board is haunted by the ghost of woody hayes, who said this immortal line many moons ago: "only three things can happen with the forward pass, and two of them are bad."

521378[/snapback]

 

Well, if you read my previous post, you already know my view on this play.

 

Any dispute on this point?...The object of the game is to win - plain and simple. Doesn't matter if it's by one point or 45 points. It all counts the same come playoff time.

 

The best chance to secure the win in yesterday's game, with 19 minutes and a 20 point lead, was to score at least 3 points. This would have put the Dolphins in a position where they would have needed 24 unanswered points to take the lead. The likelihood of them getting 3 TDs all accompanied by 2 pt conversions was remote.

 

Keeping this in mind, the Bills should have played a very conservative series. Yes, it might have been a boring 1,2,3, Willis for no gain series, but it would have almost surely gotten them the 3 points to lock up the game, making the score 26-3. Furthermore, it could have taken the wind out of the Dolphins sails. Instead, the turnover produced the total opposite effect, giving them hope. On the other hand, they may have gotten the TD with Willis running. That would have been the cue for the fat lady to start singing.

 

Let's look at it this way:

Say you're Batman and the Joker has your balls clamped to the table of an approaching logging buzzsaw. All you need for the Joker hit the stop button is for the Bills to get 3 points and you get to keep your nuts. Do you want to see the young JP throw the ball in a short field or do you want to see the Bills play it safe so they can kick the 3 pointer ( or possibly get 6)?

 

If I'm making the call, I want Willis to get the ball (the one with Tagliabue stamped on it), hold it tight, and run like hell towards the endzone.

[Peter]

The wr was open. It should have been a td.

[gggbills]

Well, if you read my previous post, you already know my view on this play.

 

Any dispute on this point?...The object of the game is to win - plain and simple. Doesn't matter if it's by one point or 45 points. It all counts the same come playoff time.

 

The best chance to secure the win in yesterday's game, with 19 minutes and a 20 point lead, was to score at least 3 points. This would have put the Dolphins in a position where they would have needed 24 unanswered points to take the lead. The likelihood of them getting 3 TDs all accompanied by 2 pt conversions was remote.

 

Keeping this in mind, the Bills should have played a very conservative series. Yes, it might have been a boring 1,2,3, Willis for no gain series, but it would have almost surely gotten them the 3 points to lock up the game, making the score 26-3. Furthermore, it could have taken the wind out of the Dolphins sails. Instead, the turnover produced the total opposite effect, giving them hope. On the other hand, they may have gotten the TD with Willis running. That would have been the cue for the fat lady to start singing.

 

Let's look at it this way:

Say you're Batman and the Joker has your balls clamped to the table of an approaching logging buzzsaw. All you need for the Joker hit the stop button is for the Bills to get 3 points and you get to keep your nuts. Do you want to see the young JP throw the ball in a short field or do you want to see the Bills play it safe so they can kick the 3 pointer ( or possibly get 6)?

 

If I'm making the call, I want Willis to get the ball (the one with Tagliabue stamped on it), hold it tight, and run like hell towards the endzone.

521529[/snapback]

 

LOL....yes, what he said...I want to keep my nuts!! RUN THE BALL DAMM YOU!!!!

[dave mcbride]

Agree with Dawgg.

 

No way do you pass in that situation.  Run three times and if you don't get it in, take the field goal.  That's what Marv would have done.  Instead we give them the momentum and the rest is history.

521525[/snapback]

marv wouldn't have done it because marv wouldn't have called the play. kelly would have. and kelly did actually do the same thing in 1996 at the end of the game and down by 7 at the miami one yard line. he was called for a very questionable intentional grounding that put them back at the 11, but that's neither here nor there. the bills did it a lot in those days.

[dave mcbride]

Well, if you read my previous post, you already know my view on this play.

 

Any dispute on this point?...The object of the game is to win - plain and simple. Doesn't matter if it's by one point or 45 points. It all counts the same come playoff time.

 

The best chance to secure the win in yesterday's game, with 19 minutes and a 20 point lead, was to score at least 3 points. This would have put the Dolphins in a position where they would have needed 24 unanswered points to take the lead. The likelihood of them getting 3 TDs all accompanied by 2 pt conversions was remote.

 

Keeping this in mind, the Bills should have played a very conservative series. Yes, it might have been a boring 1,2,3, Willis for no gain series, but it would have almost surely gotten them the 3 points to lock up the game, making the score 26-3. Furthermore, it could have taken the wind out of the Dolphins sails. Instead, the turnover produced the total opposite effect, giving them hope. On the other hand, they may have gotten the TD with Willis running. That would have been the cue for the fat lady to start singing.

 

Let's look at it this way:

Say you're Batman and the Joker has your balls clamped to the table of an approaching logging buzzsaw. All you need for the Joker hit the stop button is for the Bills to get 3 points and you get to keep your nuts. Do you want to see the young JP throw the ball in a short field or do you want to see the Bills play it safe so they can kick the 3 pointer ( or possibly get 6)?

 

If I'm making the call, I want Willis to get the ball (the one with Tagliabue stamped on it), hold it tight, and run like hell towards the endzone.

521529[/snapback]

but the bills threw the ball most of the way down the field to get to the 3!! why abandon what's working? they clearly intended to score a td, which they would have done had losman been on target.

[The Dean]

I think he understands perfectly well where you're coming from. I also think that he just happens to disagree with your desire for the staff to go into a little shell and start coaching against the scoreboard with a full quarter and a half left to play.

I happen to fully agree with him and view your desire to take the air out of the ball with 20:00 left to play to be nothing more than coaching not to lose. And I don't want teh Bills staff caoching scared, and I don't want them coaching against teh scoreboard in the middle of the game, and I don't think umpteen posts lamenting a perfectly normal call in the middle of the 3rdqrtr are a a reasonable response to the Bills willingness to do something that a lot of good teams regularly do.

Just because he/we disagree(s) with your philosophy, doesn't mean that you have some special insight that we're too stupid to understand. It just means that we disagree.

521509[/snapback]

 

 

You're full of crap, ya moron!

 

With that said, I want MM coaching with a an eye on the score and the clock. I don't think we had to go into a "shell"...but, game management counts for something and this staff needs to prove thay have that ability. I'm pretty sure I know what you'd have done in that sitch...and I don't think it involves a pass.

 

With all that said, a running TD at that point in the game would have made more of an impact on the rest of the game than a score through the air...with less of a downside.