Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 from the corner on NRO: Haven't read much about this in the news .... but a Navy info source that I receive sent this out this morning. Thanks to the Navy's new readiness model 28 ships were ready to get underway within 24 hours. Bataan (a helicopter carrier) and HSV (High Speed Vessel) 2 Swift, out of Naval Station Ingleside, Texas, are off the affected coastline providing support. Four MH-53s (huge helos capable of moving 40-50 troops) and two HH-60s (capable of moving about 20 troops) off the Bataan are flying medevac and search and rescue (SAR) missions in Louisiana, and supporting the Coast Guard's 8th District. Bataan's hospital and staff has been augmented by an additional contingent from the Navy's Bureau of Medicine (BUMED), consisting of 85 personnel, including 12 physicians and 4 surgeons. The Iwo Jima (large helo carrier) Expeditionary Strike Group (ESG) is sailing from Norfolk, Va. loaded with disaster-response equipment. The USNS Arctic (T-AOE 8 - an oiler, ammunition and stores (as in refrigerated stores)) is currently off the Gulf Coast. USS Iwo Jima (LHD 7) (large helo carrier), USS Shreveport (LPD 12) (large helo capable troop transport ship), and USS Tortuga (LSD 46) (large, helo capable troop transport ship) are expected soon. A medical staff augmentation for Iwo Jima is expected to be en route tomorrow. The hospital ship, USNS Comfort (T-AH 20), is departing Baltimore by September 3 to bring some 270 medical staff, capable of supporting 250 hospital beds, to the Gulf region. Project Hope has offered to embark additional medical personnel, and the Air Force's Surgeon General has offered to provide still further staff if needed. USS Harry S. Truman (aircraft carrier) (CVN 75) and USS Whidbey Island (LSD 41) (same as Tortuga above) are sailing today for areas off the Gulf Coast in support to FEMA relief operations. Truman will serve as a command center and an afloat staging base, and will carry additional helicopters from Naval Air Station Jacksonville to support search and rescue efforts. Whidbey Island will bring to the region the ability to employ a movable causeway. USS Grapple (ARS 53) (salvage ship) is currently en route in order to assist with maritime and underwater survey and salvage operations. Military Sealift Command has transferred control of five of its ships to the Navy's Second Fleet to provide further support to relief efforts. USNS Bellatrix, Altair, Pillilau, Bob Hope, and Argol are in the Gulf of Mexico already (all capable of carrying lots of food stuffs, and supplies). USNS Arctic is also at sea in the Gulf and acting as a FEMA support ship and providing logistics services support for the other ships at sea. Navy helicopters from Jacksonville and Mayport, Fla., are supporting relief efforts, and Navy Seabees from Port Hueneme, Jacksonville, and Norfolk are on scene or making preparations to deploy to assist in relief operations. USNS Pollux is operating onboard dialysis equipment for the patients of a local hospital, providing diesel fuel for area hospitals' generators, and providing meals and berthing to relief workers. 427777[/snapback] The "D" in "LSD" and "LHD", by the way, stands for "dock". Those ships have floodable well decks for amphibious operations...which means they can and probably will stage small boats and landing craft from offshore. Which is probably desperately needed as soon as possible, I'd think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 what about this: Rich, As a degreed Mechanical Engineer (with very limited experience in hydrology, I'd be the first to admit), I was disappointed by how slow the repair process was, specifically regarding the 17th Street Canal levee. It seems to me that the attempts to re-establish the levee at the break point were misguided at best: the gap is large, the levee underneath eroding, and unstable. It seemed to me a far more obvious solution was to use the Hammond Highway bridge (a newly constructed bridge just north of the levee break) as a logicalt area to establish a cofferdam. Then, once water flow over the broken section of the levee was stopped, re-establish the levee, and then start pumping out. The bridge provides a hard point for landing supplies, is accessible from Lake Ponchartrain (esp. via barges, which could carry large volumes of materials and equipment). This could have been done relatively easily as opposed to trying to establish a new levee section in rushing water. The only disadvantage that I could see would have been that the cofferdam would then have to be removed once the original levee was reestablished, but that's a minor problem given the level of flooding that ensued during the feeble attempts to plug the levee itself. Interestingly, from the limited photos I've seen, it seems that two cranes are now on the bridge. Wonder what's next in the minds of the engineers on site? 427796[/snapback] Engineers get it in their head (yes, I am generalizing) to think one way and everything won't do! There are all kinds of mechanical and hydraulic tricks that you can use. Just plain stubborness pervades some people. I suspect mobilizing (note CTM ) a repair crew was the toughest? Then they got so blinded by the levee break... A quick scan up canal on the sat image shows a VERY VERY narrow mouth (where the flow was equalized to boot, yet flowing fast). CTM said that the lake levee actually went too. That would have a bigger problem. I am just a peon Lock and Dam operator with limited expierence seeing cofferdams going up... Looking at the area of NOLA early in the week, I THOUGHT THE SAME EXACT THING. At the controlling works here in S. Chicago, it is obvious what even 2-3 feet of head (difference in water elevations) can do. I mentioned the draw-down and coffering during the Chicago loop flood in the early 1990's. I also wonder what was going on at the controlling works on the intercoastal at Harvey and Algiers?... Were they evacuated, probably? Being a Corps employee in a vital water control capacity, I don't know what SOP would be during a hurricane down there?... Do you have to show up for work? What I don't understand is like CTM stated earlier why not compartmentalize the canals? Later thinking cost... To do it on the cheap, why weren't bulkheads placed throughout the system? They could have slipped the cofferdams in these bulkheads. At the lock where I work, that is how they dewater the sector-gates and chamber. My early posts likened they effort to holding a burst water pipe with your hand, failing to reach for the main. The marina was on fire directly at the mouth of the canal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 According to Kathleen Blanco this weekend, she made the mandatory evacuation order only after the president, AP wrote, "called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation." 427798[/snapback] That is a plus in the GWB response! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 That is a plus in the GWB response! 427823[/snapback] It just highlights how bad the local level decisions have been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 http://the-rail.blogspot.com/2005/09/are-c...e-disaster.html fox vs. cnn coverage 427806[/snapback] Not surprising. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDS Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Castro just offered 1100 doctors and 26 tons of medicine... that'll make some people squirm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 CTM said that the lake levee actually went too. That would have a bigger problem. 427821[/snapback] It did, and that was apparently a HUGE problem. Something like a 200 foot breach that may have eroded to 500 feet (no one was ever really clear on the size - surprise, surprise - but reports seemed to have it getting bigger with time). And I've heard of a third breach somewhere...but I think by that time the solid biological waste material had intersected the oscillating cooling device, and no one was in any position or even mood to say where and how bad. NO may very well have been able to survive the canal breach. When the lake levee went (which is the one I believe they were trying to drop sandbags into - 3000 lb sandbags into a 200 foot breach, real good plan ), they were pretty much screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 It just highlights how bad the local level decisions have been. 427827[/snapback] Sentimentality's part of it. It's a lot easier sitting a thousand miles away saying they have to abandon the city (EII and I together came to that conclusion in a few hours - that it would have to be completely abandoned to be fixed. And he's an idiot, we never agree on anything. ) But when you're the governor of Louisana, the necessity of abandoning your biggest city is probably a lot harder to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 It just highlights how bad the local level decisions have been. 427827[/snapback] So true. So true. I just can't get past the 3 day lag... It is just too damning... The death and lawslessness Nothing seemed to go right during this disaster in NOLA! Which leads me right back to the immediate levee response totally being a slam dunk indictment against the Corps and the US gov. Everything hinged on that aspect or plan. Amazing how quickly things could fall apart!! Just my opinion, others have argued relentlessly that the state and local gov should have had better plans, that the feds by owning the hydraulics around that town should take the fall. I see NOLA being subdued into submission by the fed plans for that area throughout the years. They just said eff it, let them (US) handle it, putting utter faith in Washington. Maybe Betsy ('65) and Camille ('69) are to blame for this big gov attittude? Very, very preventable (levee break and response) even with a hurrincane that wasn't preventable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 It did, and that was apparently a HUGE problem. Something like a 200 foot breach that may have eroded to 500 feet (no one was ever really clear on the size - surprise, surprise - but reports seemed to have it getting bigger with time). And I've heard of a third breach somewhere...but I think by that time the solid biological waste material had intersected the oscillating cooling device, and no one was in any position or even mood to say where and how bad. NO may very well have been able to survive the canal breach. When the lake levee went (which is the one I believe they were trying to drop sandbags into - 3000 lb sandbags into a 200 foot breach, real good plan ), they were pretty much screwed. 427848[/snapback] Yi-Ya-Yi... As I shake my head in disbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 So true. So true. I just can't get past the 3 day lag... It is just too damning... The death and lawslessness Nothing seemed to go right during this disaster in NOLA! Which leads me right back to the immediate levee response totally being a slam dunk indictment against the Corps and the US gov. Everything hinged on that aspect or plan. Amazing how quickly things could fall apart!! Just my opinion, others have argued relentlessly that the state and local gov should have had better plans, that the feds by owning the hydraulics around that town should take the fall. I see NOLA being subdued into submission by the fed plans for that area throughout the years. They just said eff it, let them (US) handle it, putting utter faith in Washington. Maybe Betsy ('65) and Camille ('69) are to blame for this big gov attittude? Very, very preventable (levee break and response) even with a hurrincane that wasn't preventable. 427866[/snapback] Realistically, though...when the levees went, how quickly could they have repaired them? Your approach to the canal breach is common-sense enough (screw the breach, block the narrow ends of the canal. ) But the lake levee had a breach two city blocks long (direct quote from the news - so it's probably BS, and take it for what it's worth) with a lake emptying through it. How do you plug a breach that wide against that hydraulic pressure...and do it in a way so that it's not just going to erode around the plug as you're placing it in? I can't even begin to imagine a way of approaching it effectively until the water levels equalize...but there's got to be a way. The Dutch can't wait for half their country to equalize in water level with the North Sea before they plug a breach in the dike system, after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Sentimentality's part of it. It's a lot easier sitting a thousand miles away saying they have to abandon the city (EII and I together came to that conclusion in a few hours - that it would have to be completely abandoned to be fixed. And he's an idiot, we never agree on anything. ) But when you're the governor of Louisana, the necessity of abandoning your biggest city is probably a lot harder to see. 427854[/snapback] Hey, hey, hey... Wait, you'd be surpised what a closet lib you are. Draw it right back into the historic French Quarter and flood everything else. It could be a tourist destination for revelers, history buffs and Mardi Gras. For my wife... Keep Faulkner's home and the Ezra Jack Keats collection (she is such a geek). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crap Throwing Monkey Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Hey, hey, hey... Wait, you'd be surpised what a closet lib you are. 427876[/snapback] Go to hell, B word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 It is hard to see it waste. I can't step foot in the French Quarter without thinking about Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 It is hard to see it waste. I can't step foot in the French Quarter without thinking about Poe's "The Cask of Amontillado" 427882[/snapback] Before any of you brainiacs call me on it... And I gotta leave. For some reason Poe's work above reminds me of New Orleans... I know his roots are in Baltimore? Cask does not take place in NO... Yet, the carinval setting reminds me of it. Geographically, lower catacombs would be an impossibilty in NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gross Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Wow. An analysis of what would have happened in New Orleans if Ivan had hit directly, basically looking at the hypotheticals of a Cat 4/5 hitting New Orleans and the "lessons supposedly learned" from the evacuation efforts for Ivan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacka Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 from the corner on NRO: Haven't read much about this in the news .... but a Navy info source that I receive sent this out this morning. Thanks to the Navy's new readiness model 28 ships were ready to get underway within 24 hours. 427777[/snapback] But the Navy should have had these ships all supplied and sitting at the mouth of the Mississippi on Friday (8/26). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Stupidity usually does with me. 427721[/snapback] Stupidity like saying "A crisis is pretty much by definition a cluster!@#$"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 Realistically, though...when the levees went, how quickly could they have repaired them? Your approach to the canal breach is common-sense enough (screw the breach, block the narrow ends of the canal. ) But the lake levee had a breach two city blocks long (direct quote from the news - so it's probably BS, and take it for what it's worth) with a lake emptying through it. How do you plug a breach that wide against that hydraulic pressure...and do it in a way so that it's not just going to erode around the plug as you're placing it in? I can't even begin to imagine a way of approaching it effectively until the water levels equalize...but there's got to be a way. The Dutch can't wait for half their country to equalize in water level with the North Sea before they plug a breach in the dike system, after all... 427873[/snapback] You are so right and that is what I was trying to convey. I have to stop ripping everybody and look at it realistically like you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted September 3, 2005 Share Posted September 3, 2005 But the Navy should have had these ships all supplied and sitting at the mouth of the Mississippi on Friday (8/26). 427926[/snapback] No. You are right. But, a five day "steam" is too long IMO, especially when we are fighting a war. ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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