Kurt Warner on Josh's recent INTs

[PoundingDog]

The last throw in the Texans' game brought new light on why running your route precisely is what separates great ones (Jerry Rice is famous for) from a JAG receiver. And Yes Diggs is someone Josh can trust and Palmer is someone Josh can't in stress scenarios.

 

I'm not saying Josh is perfect. Just like Warner pointed out, as well as many others (cover 1, Marino etc.), the Steelers game INT is all Josh.

 

 

 

[SoonerBillsFan]

7 minutes ago, PoundingDog said:

The last throw in the Texans' game brought new light on why running your route precisely is what separates great ones (Jerry Rice is famous for) from a JAG receiver. And Yes Diggs is someone Josh can trust and Palmer is someone Josh can't in stress scenarios.

 

I'm not saying Josh is perfect. Just like Warner pointed out, as well as many others (cover 1, Marino etc.), the Steelers game INT is all Josh.

 

 

 

The INT on the slant is 100% Josh. He had both guys wide open on slants to the top, let alone what Warner says

[HoofHearted]

14 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

The INT on the slant is 100% Josh. He had both guys wide open on slants to the top, let alone what Warner says

They wouldn't have been if he had eyes that way first though. That's what a lot of people who watch this film and break it down don't understand. Zone coverages move with eyes. Steelers were in a Cover 3 look on that play. That backside Safety with eyes away is not going to drop down as far with eyes away as he would with eyes too because the route will develop further before eyes can get back to that side. Queen would immediately push to Knox with eyes to that side. So eyes top first would have brought the Safety down to the slant of 1 and Queen to the slant of 2, essentially the exact same coverage you get to the bottom with eyes to it between the overhang and backer.

 

Just a bad concept vs what we got from the defense.

[Maine-iac]

10 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

They wouldn't have been if he had eyes that way first though. That's what a lot of people who watch this film and break it down don't understand. Zone coverages move with eyes. Steelers were in a Cover 3 look on that play. That backside Safety with eyes away is not going to drop down as far with eyes away as he would with eyes too because the route will develop further before eyes can get back to that side. Queen would immediately push to Knox with eyes to that side. So eyes top first would have brought the Safety down to the slant of 1 and Queen to the slant of 2, essentially the exact same coverage you get to the bottom with eyes to it between the overhang and backer.

 

Just a bad concept vs what we got from the defense.

When the backer blitzes he should have automatically gone to that side.  You throw to replace the blitzer in almost all situations.  If it's done right it's almost a bang bang play and neither queen nor the safety are going to get to the TE before Allen would have had a completion.  At the bare minimum you don't throw into that coverage.  For all the great things Allen does his best games he takes the profit and plays efficiently and in his not great games, which is happening more this season, he looks off easy throws and winds up in bad situations.  It's not the be all end all of stats but there's a reason Allen's QBR is at an all time low.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

On that last Houston game play:

 

1) that should not have been OPI on Gabe. He was running a normal route and the defender was the one who basically initiated that contact.

 

2) Warner is right: Palmer royally screwed up. 

[HoofHearted]

4 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

When the backer blitzes he should have automatically gone to that side.  You throw to replace the blitzer in almost all situations.  If it's done right it's almost a bang bang play and neither queen nor the safety are going to get to the TE before Allen would have had a completion.  At the bare minimum you don't throw into that coverage.  For all the great things Allen does his best games he takes the profit and plays efficiently and in his not great games, which is happening more this season, he looks off easy throws and winds up in bad situations.  It's not the be all end all of stats but there's a reason Allen's QBR is at an all time low.

If he throws it immediately it’s definitely bang bang. You’re gonna be about 5 yards short of a first though. Not sure the competitive nature in Josh gets him to throw that short of the stick regardless of whether it’s the right thing to do or not unfortunately.

[SoonerBillsFan]

42 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

They wouldn't have been if he had eyes that way first though. That's what a lot of people who watch this film and break it down don't understand. Zone coverages move with eyes. Steelers were in a Cover 3 look on that play. That backside Safety with eyes away is not going to drop down as far with eyes away as he would with eyes too because the route will develop further before eyes can get back to that side. Queen would immediately push to Knox with eyes to that side. So eyes top first would have brought the Safety down to the slant of 1 and Queen to the slant of 2, essentially the exact same coverage you get to the bottom with eyes to it between the overhang and backer.

 

Just a bad concept vs what we got from the defense.

Im sure you are shocked considering who the OC is...

[RobbRiddick]

I wish we could trade this guy for Maye, straight up. 

[Maine-iac]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

If he throws it immediately it’s definitely bang bang. You’re gonna be about 5 yards short of a first though. Not sure the competitive nature in Josh gets him to throw that short of the stick regardless of whether it’s the right thing to do or not unfortunately.

I'm not going to try to sell you that they get a first but it was 3rd and 9 and they certainly could have picked up 6 or 7 and been inside the 40.  We've gone for it a million times on a 4th and 2 and the edge of Prater's field goal range.  All that aside the throw he did make was one of a lot of bad decisions Josh has made this year.  The throw he missed is forgivable.  The throw he made was just bad.  Outside of last year Allen has turned the ball over pretty consistently most of his career.  We've also usually had better defenses to absorb some of that.

[HoofHearted]

Just now, SoonerBillsFan said:

Im sure you are shocked considering who the OC is...

I mean those coaches on the other side get paid to make good calls too. Bad calls will happen. What’s more concerning is that all slants was the call. It’s not a great concept in general.

[HappyDays]

25 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

If he throws it immediately it’s definitely bang bang. You’re gonna be about 5 yards short of a first though. Not sure the competitive nature in Josh gets him to throw that short of the stick regardless of whether it’s the right thing to do or not unfortunately.

 

Do you think Davis needed to cross the face of the slot there or did Josh misplace the throw? My thought watching it live was Josh expected Davis to continue running and the end result is we probably end up in 4th and 2.

 

Edited 33 minutes ago by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

I'm not going to try to sell you that they get a first but it was 3rd and 9 and they certainly could have picked up 6 or 7 and been inside the 40.  We've gone for it a million times on a 4th and 2 and the edge of Prater's field goal range.  All that aside the throw he did make was one of a lot of bad decisions Josh has made this year.  The throw he missed is forgivable.  The throw he made was just bad.  Outside of last year Allen has turned the ball over pretty consistently most of his career.  We've also usually had better defenses to absorb some of that.

Yeah, really bad read by him. Just forcing stuff trying to make something happen.

[Maine-iac]

Just now, HappyDays said:

 

Do you think Davis needed to cross the face of the slot there or did Josh misplace the throw? My thought watching it life is Josh expected Davis to continue running and the end result is we probably end up in 4th and 2.

There was two under and a safety over to the side Allen threw it.  You can't throw that pass into that coverage.  The underneath coverage had position long before Davis was ever going to reach them and there's really no chance Davis even could just cross the DB's face.  Once the LB blitzed it should have gone to the left side. 

25 minutes ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

On that last Houston game play:

 

1) that should not have been OPI on Gabe. He was running a normal route and the defender was the one who basically initiated that contact.

 

2) Warner is right: Palmer royally screwed up. 

I think this is the one where we had a man downfield on the play so even without the pick it would have been a penalty on our OL.

[SoonerBillsFan]

14 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I mean those coaches on the other side get paid to make good calls too. Bad calls will happen. What’s more concerning is that all slants was the call. It’s not a great concept in general.

He has had horrible game plans and game management/ calling sine he took over the gig.

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, HoofHearted said:

They wouldn't have been if he had eyes that way first though.

 

I have been screaming this for 2 months now. They just don’t get it.

 

Welcome back.

[HoofHearted]

27 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Do you think Davis needed to cross the face of the slot there or did Josh misplace the throw? My thought watching it life is Josh expected Davis to continue running and the end result is we probably end up in 4th and 2.

Josh held the ball too long. Slants should be hitch and throw as far as footwork. He waited for the route to get to the sticks.

[HappyDays]

13 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

The underneath coverage had position long before Davis was ever going to reach them and there's really no chance Davis even could just cross the DB's face.

 

I saw a video of Chris Simms breaking down our run offense in this game. He briefly touched on this INT saying that Davis screwed Allen over by not crossing the CB's face. I'm not saying that Simms is automatically correct, or that Kurt Warner is, or least of all that I am. I inherently trust @HoofHearted more than anybody on this board with these questions. I'm just saying that's what it looked like Allen's thought process was. Gabe throttles down a bit and only accelerates back into his route once he realizes where the ball is headed. That brief slow down affected the outcome.

 

I could be convinced Allen shouldn't have thrown this ball in any case because Echols' leverage muddies the read, but I do believe the ball was thrown where Davis would have been if he had continued the pace of his route and that a pass breakup would have been the worst case scenario.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

31 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

 

I think this is the one where we had a man downfield on the play so even without the pick it would have been a penalty on our OL.

I thought the penalty was on Gabe for OPI? 

[thewookie1]

The Steelers one is 75% on Josh and 25% on Gabe

 

Josh made the wrong read/choice on the throw but it didn’t have to be an interception. If Gabe runs through there at full speed it’s either 4&2 or an incompletion.

So it’s Josh fault for the opportunity but Gabe’s for making the result the worst possible

[Maine-iac]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I saw a video of Chris Simms breaking down our run offense in this game. He briefly touched on this INT saying that Davis screwed Allen over by not crossing the CB's face. I'm not saying that Simms is automatically correct, or that Kurt Warner is, or least of all that I am. I inherently trust @HoofHearted more than anybody on this board with these questions. I'm just saying that's what it looked like Allen's thought process was. Gabe throttles down a bit and only accelerates back into his route once he realizes where the ball is headed. That brief slow down affected the outcome.

 

I could be convinced Allen shouldn't have thrown this ball in any case because Echols' leverage muddies the read, but I do believe the ball was thrown where Davis would have been if he had continued the pace of his route and that a pass breakup would have been the worst case scenario.

If there wasn't a second inside coverage guy I could get on board but with Simm's idea but where Allen threw the ball was so far in front of Davis that really only the defender had a chance of getting there first.  The best and only out I can give Allen, and in my mind it's reaching, is that somehow the inside WR blocked Allen's view of the 2nd underneath coverage guy and somehow Allen didn't know he was there.  All that said when the LB blitzed Allen should have immediately dumped it to Knox.