HappyDays Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: they have no culture... They haven't had consistent coaching Watch how the entire defense reacted after that win on Sunday and tell me they don't have a culture. Jim Schwartz as we know from firsthand experience is a leader of men. The Bills didn't swarm Doug Marrone when we beat the Aaron Rodgers led Packers in Buffalo, they swarmed Schwartz. Kevin Stefanski has been coaching with both hands tied behind his back because the Browns owner made the worst trade in NFL history. 8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Nothing that shows they could correct flaws.. remember Baker was a prospect with a lot of game experience and his flaws were minimal for a rookie prospect Baker was a perfectly fine player when they decided to move on from him. Nothing more nothing less. It took him longer to reach his ceiling than Allen, that is true. Is your take that if Brian Daboll was in Cleveland they somehow would have flipped trajectories? Yeah I just hard disagree with that. Allen was the architect of his own success. He rebuilt his mechanics from the ground up. He survived years of horrible pass protection and bottom tier WR play. He created the stability in the organization, not the other way around. Edited September 26 by HappyDays 1 Quote
FireChans Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: They haven't had any stability that would have developed Josh consistently over the first three to five formative years.. they have no culture... They haven't had consistent coaching Nothing that shows they could correct flaws.. remember Baker was a prospect with a lot of game experience and his flaws were minimal for a rookie prospect He needed minimal development.. he just needed steadiness.. they couldn't even give him steadiness No I have zero belief that the browns would have been able to develop Josh Allen to the point where they are super bowl contenders while correcting his flaws.. I don't believe it at all Just like the Jets.. look at the roster they put around Sam darnold the year 3 the kid they traded up to make their franchise quarterback.. Jamison crowder was their number one wide receiver hahaha By that time we gave Allen diggs and brown and Beasley .. Could the Ravens have developed Josh Allen? Absolutely I have zero Faith the browns would have.. because they had a ready-made prospect and they couldn't even stay the ship.. I have zero doubt they could have developed somebody who needed years of development Baker came in a 29 touchdown quarterback a rookie record and they still couldn't right the ship... I have zero Faith they could have developed Josh Allen If they thought they could have developed him they would have drafted him because all the pundits believed he had the highest ceiling... But he needed tons of development.. which sometimes never happens... They obviously didn't think they could develop him and neither did jets We had no stability or culture or consistent coaching when we drafted Josh Allen. McD and Beane were first timers in their new roles. Beane wasn't even a scout coming up. I don't think they did anything that special, outside of picking the right QB. Honestly. I reject the notion that they wiped away 20 years of dysfunction in one offseason because they took an 8-8 roster to 9-7. Edited September 26 by FireChans Quote
HappyDays Posted September 26 Posted September 26 4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: People here are becoming like spoiled Patriots fans who think Josh Allen would be a superstar on 31 other teams it doesn't work like that .. the NFL has never worked like that So you think the Pats organization forgot how to develop a QB when they drafted Mac Jones? Quote
FireChans Posted September 26 Posted September 26 2 minutes ago, HappyDays said: So you think the Pats organization forgot how to develop a QB when they drafted Mac Jones? The Pats superior culture and coaching died on the vine the second their superstar QB walked out the door. Apparently they were 100% responsible for Brady's success but also could not ever replicate it again. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 7 minutes ago, HappyDays said: So you think the Pats organization forgot how to develop a QB when they drafted Mac Jones? Hello every single quarterback has bust potential.. from the number one overall pick to the 7th rounder how they get developed from 22 to 27 is Paramount and then it also takes external factors.. quarterbacks actually rely on other people Mac Jones just didn't have what it takes to follow up the greatest of all time... How can the Packers go from favre to Rogers to love? It's because they know how to develop quarterbacks as a organization.. they let them sit and learn and they groom them .. developing quarterbacks is absolutely an organizational thing Which is why from day one I said McDermott sitting Josh Allen was the smartest thing.. a quarterback can only grow from the bench .. a full year would have had Josh correcting his flaws even earlier Everything McDermott is done has been terrific in developing Josh Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
FireChans Posted September 26 Posted September 26 9 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: By year three our offensive line was already turning around and so is our wide receiver core.. again we have had a great plan in place You cannot fix everything in one year with a salary cap.. the bills had a plan and they stuck to it Josh Allen has had tremendous coaching from our entire coaching staff.. everybody says top down our organization is supreme Sorry every quarterback can regress even ones who are already Stars.. Patrick mahomes is regressing right now.. Josh Allen can still regress .. nothing is set in stone that Josh Allen is going to be an MVP for 10th Straight more years.. if you don't protect a quarterback they regress When they start to regress they're bad flaws start popping up again .. it's taking Josh Allen 5 plus years to totally correct some of these flaws and some still pop up occasionally I have zero Faith the Cleveland browns would have been able to develop Josh Allen over 5 years while keeping his flaws away... Josh Allen still through tons of picks 2 years ago 6 years in It would have been a lot worse in Cleveland .. a lot a lot a lot worse People here are becoming like spoiled Patriots fans who think Josh Allen would be a superstar on 31 other teams it doesn't work like that .. the NFL has never worked like that How you develop from 22 to 26 is massive for a quarterback Nobody who works for a football team would believe your opinion Nobody Every single person knows it takes an army to groom an NFL quarterback.. literally takes three four five years.. not one or two I have 0% faith that the Cleveland browns organization would have the ability to develop Josh Allen over 5 years Zero faith... In fact most people didn't believe the bills could develop Josh Allen.. and it turns out we do have a really good coaching staff and GM, who have given Josh Allen every chance to become the best quarterback he is Sorry we literally have built an elite offensive line and we have given Josh Allen weapons since year 3.. and Josh Allen has still had ups and downs because he's growing 0% Faith he would have the same career on the browns because they don't do enough as an organization to groom a franchise quarterback Josh Allen had flaws here in year 6.. they would be amplified four times in New York or Cleveland They built an elite offensive line....last year. Roger Saffold was quite literally the worst IOL in the league and he started 16 games for us in 2022. In Josh's FIFTH year. Our IOL play was a disaster that season and guess what....we still had an elite offense, won a bunch of games and went to the divisional round. Because we had Josh Allen. This is just circular logic. We clearly have a "really good coaching staff and GM" because they "developed Josh Allen." How do we know? Because Josh Allen is great. What are the odds that Beane and McD develop the next kid when Josh retires? I'll give you 100-1 odds they fail and all get fired. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 7 minutes ago, FireChans said: They built an elite offensive line....last year. Roger Saffold was quite literally the worst IOL in the league and he started 16 games for us in 2022. In Josh's FIFTH year. Our IOL play was a disaster that season and guess what....we still had an elite offense, won a bunch of games and went to the divisional round. Because we had Josh Allen. This is just circular logic. We clearly have a "really good coaching staff and GM" because they "developed Josh Allen." How do we know? Because Josh Allen is great. What are the odds that Beane and McD develop the next kid when Josh retires? I'll give you 100-1 odds they fail and all get fired. As in develop the next kid to be a Hall of famer? Probably not a high odd because Josh had the talent he needed to be groomed .. can they develop a tyrod Taylor level guy who can win games? Yeah I believe that All the scouts admitted Josh Allen had the highest ceiling and the most talent.. what they all doubted was the ability to correct all those flaws because it's really hard to do and it takes a team at the NFL level If the browns and jets thought they would be able to correct those flaws they would have drafted Josh because even their scouts would admit he had the most talent... Taking a cleaner prospect in Baker kind of shows they didn't think they could develop that high-end talent Baker floor was good QB.. 29 touchdowns out the gate ... Josh's floor was lower and they clearly didn't think they can get him to that ceiling.. If it was 100% cut and dry they can get Josh Allen to his ceiling they would have drafted the 6'5 mobile gunslinger over the 5 ft 11 quarterback who is good but not as talented The Jets also went with a cleaner prospect in Sam.. because news flash developing a quarterback is very tough Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
FireChans Posted September 26 Posted September 26 3 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: As in develop the next kid to be a Hall of famer? Probably not a high odd because Josh had the talent he needed to be groomed .. can they develop a tyrod Taylor level guy who can win games? Yeah I believe that All the scouts admitted Josh Allen had the highest ceiling and the most talent.. what they all doubted was the ability to correct all those flaws because it's really hard to do and it takes a team at the NFL level If the browns and jets thought they would be able to correct those flaws they would have drafted Josh because even their scouts would admit he had the most talent... Taking a cleaner prospect in Baker kind of shows they didn't think they could develop that high-end talent Baker floor was good QB.. 29 touchdowns out the gate ... Josh's floor was a lot lower and they clearly didn't think they can get him to that ceiling.. If it was 100% cut and dry they can get Josh Allen to his ceiling they would have drafted the 6'5 mobile gunslinger over the 5 ft 11 quarterback who is good but not as talented Tyrod Taylor is a career backup. Talk about setting the bar low. Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 9 minutes ago, FireChans said: Tyrod Taylor is a career backup. Talk about setting the bar low. I was just throwing it out there... I think the bills after Josh Allen if we still have the coaches in place can develop a solid quarterback Josh Allen has the tools that if he was groomed and coached correctly could take him to world class.. but again the word is groomed and coached correctly Again the browns and jets passed up those world-class traits because they obviously didn't think it was developable... If it was cut and dry he's not falling to seven John elway passed him up.. he was not a cut and dry Hall of Fame player and I am very thankful that it's turned out this way But if it was that simple that he was going to be the best ever.. he's not getting passed up The Buffalo Bills organization absolutely deserves some credit.. of course Josh has a terrific work ethic but so do most NFL players.. the organization does deserve some credit Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
HappyDays Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: How can the Packers go from favre to Rogers to love? I don't believe anything the Packers did in the early 90s has any relevance to the organization today. If that were true we wouldn't have gone from Jim Kelly to a parade of nobodies for two decades. And by the way I think Jordan Love is a pretty good QB but he has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same breath as those other two. I also want to be clear I'm not saying coaching can't make QBs look better. Like Brock Purdy doesn't become a $265M QB if not for Kyle Shanahan. But I also think Purdy's limitations are pretty obvious when you watch him play so while the system makes him look better within his own skill set, elite offensive coaching hasn't magically transformed him into an elite QB. 20 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said: Which is why from day one I said McDermott sitting Josh Allen was the smartest thing.. a quarterback can only grow from the bench .. a full year would have had Josh correcting his flaws even earlier I'm neutral on the subject of starting QBs early vs letting them learn from the bench. There are positive and negative cases on both sides. Allen pretty clearly got better as he played more throughout his rookie season but that doesn't mean it was inherently the best path to developing him. My overarching take is that it doesn't really matter - elite QBs will become elite, bust QBs will bust, no matter what their situation looks like early on. You can look no further than what Allen survived in his early years after taking over for a franchise that was nothing but a laughingstock. We've been so spoiled by Josh Allen's play we've forgotten how bad it was before. As recently as 2017-2018 we had all-time goofy storylines going on like the Peterman game, Kelvin Benjamin eating his way out of the league, Vontae Davis retiring at halftime. Same old Bills we said. But then Allen ascended and all of it went away overnight. And now retroactively we credit the same organization that produced those moments for Allen's ascension? Yeah I'm not buying it. Edited September 26 by HappyDays 1 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 55 minutes ago, HappyDays said: I don't believe anything the Packers did in the early 90s has any relevance to the organization today. If that were true we wouldn't have gone from Jim Kelly to a parade of nobodies for two decades. And by the way I think Jordan Love is a pretty good QB but he has a long way to go to be mentioned in the same breath as those other two. I also want to be clear I'm not saying coaching can't make QBs look better. Like Brock Purdy doesn't become a $265M QB if not for Kyle Shanahan. But I also think Purdy's limitations are pretty obvious when you watch him play so while the system makes him look better within his own skill set, elite offensive coaching hasn't magically transformed him into an elite QB. I'm neutral on the subject of starting QBs early vs letting them learn from the bench. There are positive and negative cases on both sides. Allen pretty clearly got better as he played more throughout his rookie season but that doesn't mean it was inherently the best path to developing him. My overarching take is that it doesn't really matter - elite QBs will become elite, bust QBs will bust, no matter what their situation looks like early on. You can look no further than what Allen survived in his early years after taking over for a franchise that was nothing but a laughingstock. We've been so spoiled by Josh Allen's play we've forgotten how bad it was before. As recently as 2018 we had all-time goofy storylines going on like the Peterman game, Kelvin Benjamin eating his way out of the league, Vontae Davis retiring at halftime. Same old Bills we said. But then Allen ascended and all of it went away overnight. And now retroactively we credit the same organization that produced those moments for Allen's ascension? Yeah I'm not buying it. There is zero NFL coach that would say sitting a quarterback is bad for his career If you have the ability to sit them it is only going to help professional quarterback.. it's the one position where getting thrown to the fire does not really help Josh was playing like a chicken with his head cut off backyard football... If he got the Patrick mahomes treatment he 100% would have came out year two much sharper That's one thing that's not debatable to me.. a talented quarterback who sits is never going to hurt them.. Blake bortles threw for 4,000 yards and 35 touchdowns year 2.. much better than Josh Allen's year 2 stats...you would think that would be signs of development.. but flash in the pan seasons happen.. anybody would be happy with 35 touchdowns and 4,000 yards.. but they didn't develop Blake bortles anymore.. Trevor Lawrence has gotten no development in Jacksonville It takes an entire organization years to develop a quarterback... Years Josh isn't the first big quarterback with a rocket arm who can move.. there are plenty of busts of quarterbacks who are 6'3-6'4-6'5 who had cannons who could move.. with a good work ethic There's a reason why destination has always meant everything in the NFL... Would Josh be a superstar with harbaugh's or Pete Carroll or Reid? Sure! They are A+ coaches who bring A+ staffs And culture 25 other organizations is he the best player in the world? No , he doesn't have enough support and development from those organizations to reach that point.. Josh relies on other people so he needs to rely on the organization... There are external factors to how good Josh Allen looks Go bills !! Enjoy every game there's only x amount left! Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
LEBills Posted September 26 Posted September 26 1 hour ago, FireChans said: We had no stability or culture or consistent coaching when we drafted Josh Allen. McD and Beane were first timers in their new roles. Beane wasn't even a scout coming up. I don't think they did anything that special, outside of picking the right QB. Honestly. I reject the notion that they wiped away 20 years of dysfunction in one offseason because they took an 8-8 roster to 9-7. Yea it’s tough to separate things because it has always been Josh, McDermott and Beane. Especially Josh’s rookie year though I think McBeane made a lot of mistakes in handling him. Of course our roster wasn’t good and the assets we did have weren’t put much towards OL or WRs for Josh in 2018. What always sticks with me is that we went into the year with a QB room of rookie Josh and a second year, 5 picks in a half Peterman. That was always inexcusable and showed the brain trusts inexperience. They finally brought in Anderson and Barkley later that year that Josh could learn how to prepare as a QB from and he improved. Basically I think McDermott and Beane have improved in some areas and made some smart moves in their tenure. But Josh being so fool proof is why we are where we are imo. 1 Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 14 minutes ago, LEBills said: Yea it’s tough to separate things because it has always been Josh, McDermott and Beane. Especially Josh’s rookie year though I think McBeane made a lot of mistakes in handling him. Of course our roster wasn’t good and the assets we did have weren’t put much towards OL or WRs for Josh in 2018. What always sticks with me is that we went into the year with a QB room of rookie Josh and a second year, 5 picks in a half Peterman. That was always inexcusable and showed the brain trusts inexperience. They finally brought in Anderson and Barkley later that year that Josh could learn how to prepare as a QB from and he improved. Basically I think McDermott and Beane have improved in some areas and made some smart moves in their tenure. But Josh being so fool proof is why we are where we are imo. correct Allen has succeeded in spite of McDermott and Beane, not because of and likely would have anywhere else 2 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: correct Allen has succeeded in spite of McDermott and Beane, not because of and likely would have anywhere else The vast majority of people employed in football do not agree Every GM and scout and coach knows that situations matter.. we have Josh at a 10 out of 10 Could he be a six or a seven out of 10 in some other places? Sure 99% of NFL players never reach their full potential because of circumstances.. aka the organization around them... Josh has maybe five or six places where he becomes the best player in the world 25 other teams he's a talented quarterback with a lot of flaws like Jay Cutler https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4792204/would-tom-bradys-career-have-been-the-same-if-not-drafted-by-patriots This article by a former player sums it up.. some organizations world class, some shouldn't be coaching Pop Warner That is what it's like all around the NFL Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: The vast majority of people employed in football do not agree Every GM and scout knows that situations matter.. we have Josh at a 10 out of 10 Could he be a six or a seven out of 10 in some other places? Sure 99% of NFL players never reach their full potential because of circumstances.. aka the organization around them... Josh has maybe five or six places where he becomes the best player in the world 25 other teams he's a talented quarterback with a lot of flaws like Jay Cutler and i think on about 50% of other teams he's not only the best player in the world but multiple SB winner 1 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: and i think on about 50% of other teams he's not only the best player in the world but multiple SB winner There's absolutely not 16 organizations where he's a super bowl winner lol You might as well just say Sean McDermott sucks and so does our organization hahah because football is the ultimate team game Our turnover differential over the last four seasons is ludicrous .. and Josh's had plenty of turnovers besides last year This organization drafts and develops talent better than 28 other franchises .. everybody agrees we have a top-notch front office and scouts and executives and coaches It takes all of that to win.. there are not six other NFL franchises that are better ran top to bottom than the Buffalo Bills who draft and developed better than the Buffalo Bills Again in that same draft two quarterbacks got drafted ahead of Josh because they were considered safer.. the Jets and the browns did not believe they can develop Josh Allen... Because all the scouts agreed he was the most talented he just needed time to be developed If it was surefire that in 3 years you're going to get the best player in the world they both would have drafted him.. but they didn't because their organization did not think they could develop someone with those flaws, and they took a lesser talent who was a cleaner prospect That's the smoking gun that Josh Allen is not a surefire Hall of famer everywhere.. because nobody doubted his talent.. what the browns and jets doubted was his ability to correct flaws Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: There's absolutely not 16 organizations where he's a super bowl winner lol You might as well just say Sean McDermott sucks and so does our organization hahah because football is the ultimate team game Our turnover differential over the last four seasons is ludicrous .. and Josh's had plenty of turnovers besides last year This organization drafts and develops talent better than 28 other franchises .. everybody agrees we have a top-notch front office and scouts and executives and coaches It takes all of that to win.. there are not six other NFL franchises that are better ran top to bottom than the Buffalo Bills who draft and developed better than the Buffalo Bills ok so in your view we have the best QB, the best coaching, best front office, best scouts and executives...and we haven't even won a conference championship yet? you honestly believe the guys who watched Allen compete w Nathan Peterman and said to themselves 'yep, Peterman's our guy!' are responsible for developing the best QB in the league😂😂come on 2 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: ok so in your view we have the best QB, the best coaching, best front office, best scouts and executives...and we haven't even won a conference championship yet? you honestly believe the guys who watched Allen compete w Nathan Peterman and said to themselves 'yep, Peterman's our guy!' are responsible for developing the best QB in the league😂😂come on It's because it's hard to win a super bowl John elway didn't win a super bowl till his penultiman season.. the Buffalo Bills had Hall of Fame rosters with Jim Kelly another Hall of Fame quarterback and never won one I also already made the point that McDermott trying to sit Josh Allen shows his hands are all over it and it shows how smart he is.. because not one quarterback coach in the world would say sitting a rookie quarterback is bad for them It is always the right move and quarterbacks back in the day used to all sit even if they were first round picks.. Drew Brees Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, even Aaron Rodgers and Patrick mahomes Sitting a quarterback is never the wrong idea.. it will only fix your flaws Showing McDermott absolutely new what he was doing.. the only problem was nobody expected Nathan Peterman to be that freaking bad that we had to throw Josh to the fire .. the bills would have went through a 6 in 10 year with Peterman if he didn't throwing an interception every other pass.. even 10 touchdowns and 12 interceptions they would have lived with Sitting him 100% the correct coaching call.. that actually gave me more confidence in McDermott than anything because he does have control.. nobody wants to sit your top round quarterback but it is the right decision Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
GoBills808 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said: It's because it's hard to win a super bowl John elway didn't win a super bowl till his penultiman season.. the Buffalo Bills had Hall of Fame rosters with Jim Kelly another Hall of Fame quarterback and never won one I also already made the point that McDermott trying to sit Josh Allen shows his hands are all over it and it shows how smart he is.. because not one quarterback coach in the world would say sitting a rookie quarterback is bad for them It is always the right move and quarterbacks back in the day used to all sit even if they were first round picks.. Drew Brees Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, even Aaron Rodgers and Patrick mahomes Sitting a quarterback is never the wrong idea.. it will only fix your flaws Showing McDermott absolutely new what he was doing.. the only problem was nobody expected Nathan Peterman to be that freaking bad that we had to throw Josh to the fire Sitting him 100% the correct coaching call revisionist history there is zero reason to believe sitting Allen behind Peterman was some stroke of developmental genius that they immediately abandoned after 1.5 games 2 Quote
Buffalo716 Posted September 26 Posted September 26 (edited) 4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said: revisionist history there is zero reason to believe sitting Allen behind Peterman was some stroke of developmental genius that they immediately abandoned after 1.5 games McDermott's planned the entire time was to sit Josh Allen.. he started the preseason as the QB 3 Even if we had tyrod Taylor level play they weren't going to throw Josh in until the next year.. Peterman being historically bad made the change happen If we had even average they're not making the change that year... A bad organization names the top pick qb1 right out the gate... And throw them to the fire.. we literally gave Josh Allen development from training camp as the qb3 and were trying to hold off Ryan Fitzpatrick or tyrod Taylor would have kept him on the bench for one season and it would help Edited September 26 by Buffalo716 Quote
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