The Frankish Reich Posted 5 hours ago Author Posted 5 hours ago Why can't I buy this Toyota? https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/what-a-15-000-electric-suv-says-about-u-s-china-car-rivalry-43cd564e?st=2PsQJy&reflink=article_copyURL_share SHANGHAI—The offer sounds like a scam—a new Toyota electric-powered sport-utility vehicle for about $15,000, complete with sunroof and cup holders. But the Toyota bZ3X is real, and it is actually on sale starting at that price. There is a catch: To buy one, you have to be in China. Economists talk about "utility." The value of something relative to something else. Yes, allowing Toyota to import this car would impact the sales of Teslas and GM EVs and whatever. But it would provide huge benefits to lots and lots of American consumers who wouldn't be stuck with ultra-expensive monthly payments, who would appreciate a truly affordable (and EV to boot) well made vehicle to serve their daily needs. What kind of communistic "you must support the American state-sponsored vehicle producers" system do we live in? Tesla is better-positioned than other American automakers to compete in China, since its models have always been all-electric and it makes the vehicles in Shanghai with Chinese batteries. Yet it has fallen behind in another aspect that makes China special: speed of development. Tesla has two models widely available—Model 3 and Model Y—and both have been on the market for years. China’s BYD has about 25 models, according to the market-analysis firm Inovev, and is constantly introducing more. Am I saying that the "communist" Chinese auto industry is more openly competitive - classic capitalist, where those who don't innovate fall behind and go out of business - than the American auto industry? Yes. Yes I am. 2
Motorin' Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 1 minute ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Well, I’ve skied in Davos. People there own plenty. Not surprised by the faux elitism. Hope you're not worried about selling the summer home on Lake Cuomo next to the Clooneys! Personally, I'm willing to recalibrate my spending over the next couple of years if it means a far more sustainable and ownable supply chain than the current system that is dependent on China. Communist China, the darling of Davos skiing socialists and Lake Cuomo summering, world government yearning, faux communists.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted 5 hours ago Posted 5 hours ago 4 minutes ago, Motorin' said: Not surprised by the faux elitism. Hope you're not worried about selling the summer home on Lake Cuomo next to the Clooneys! Personally, I'm willing to recalibrate my spending over the next couple of years if it means a far more sustainable and ownable supply chain than the current system that is dependent on China. Communist China, the darling of Davos skiing socialists and Lake Cuomo summering, world government yearning, faux communists. First, let’s establish that WEF does not support the quote you posted nor is it representative of the beliefs of most attendees there. You were being disingenuous and then criticized me for not being in on your persecution syndrome. I have in laws in Lugano on the Swiss side. Less crowded the Cuomo but I think they’re looking to sell.
Doc Brown Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago 11 minutes ago, Motorin' said: Not surprised by the faux elitism. Hope you're not worried about selling the summer home on Lake Cuomo next to the Clooneys! Personally, I'm willing to recalibrate my spending over the next couple of years if it means a far more sustainable and ownable supply chain than the current system that is dependent on China. Communist China, the darling of Davos skiing socialists and Lake Cuomo summering, world government yearning, faux communists. India runs children sweatshops too. You may be willing to sacrifice but I guarantee you that most Americans won't. Depending on the poll, the range of Americans living paycheck to paycheck is between 65 to 80%. 1
The Frankish Reich Posted 4 hours ago Author Posted 4 hours ago 21 hours ago, Doc Brown said: India has significantly lower labor costs (70%) than China. It's a logical place to move your manufacturing production if I was a CEO. True. The war on China will just encourage a faster race to the bottom. China is no longer the cheapest labor manufacturer. Vietnam, Laos, Bangladesh, Indonesia ... the manufacturing hubs continue to move south and west. 1
Joe Ferguson forever Posted 4 hours ago Posted 4 hours ago Just now, Doc Brown said: India runs children sweatshops too. You may be willing to sacrifice but I guarantee you that most Americans won't. Depending on the poll, the range of Americans living paycheck to paycheck is between 65 to 80%. Yeah, but he wants to decide for us! We should all sacrifice even if we disagree. But, we should never agree to be immunized for the common good. Freedom!!!
Doc Brown Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago 1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said: True. The war on China will just encourage a faster race to the bottom. China is no longer the cheapest labor manufacturer. Vietnam, Laos, Bangladesh, Indonesia ... the manufacturing hubs continue to move south and west. Much cheaper labor in those countries by quite a bit. Even before Trump took office China's exports to the US fell from 20% in 2018 to about 13% in 2023. 1
Motorin' Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago 1 hour ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Yeah, but he wants to decide for us! We should all sacrifice even if we disagree. But, we should never agree to be immunized for the common good. Freedom!!! Immunized. I got Covid for the first time a few months after my second "immunization." And you're still keen on defending the communist country that developed Covid 19 via gain of function in a level 2 facility.
Joe Ferguson forever Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago 1 minute ago, Motorin' said: Immunized. I got Covid for the first time a few months after my second "immunization." And you're still keen on defending the communist country that developed Covid 19 via gain of function in a level 2 facility. Sounds like you blame the lockdowns for your biz failure or was it the WEF?
Motorin' Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago 1 minute ago, Joe Ferguson forever said: Sounds like you blame the lockdowns for your biz failure or was it the WEF? Sounds like you're the same condescending piece of sh!t or did you peek at your portfolio and decide to try to be an extra big a-hole?
Joe Ferguson forever Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago 2 minutes ago, Motorin' said: Sounds like you're the same condescending piece of sh!t or did you peek at your portfolio and decide to try to be an extra big a-hole? Nah, Buffet reminded me yesterday that if a 15% loss bothers you, you’re in the wrong game. Then he said trade should not be used as a weapon. Pretty smart for a 94 yo billionaire. 1
Motorin' Posted 3 hours ago Posted 3 hours ago Just now, Joe Ferguson forever said: Nah, Buffet reminded me yesterday that if a 15% loss bothers you, you’re in the wrong game. Then he said trade should not be used as a weapon. Pretty smart for a 94 yo billionaire. So just the regular level of condescension and douchebaggery. 1
sherpa Posted 2 hours ago Posted 2 hours ago 2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said: Why can't I buy this Toyota? https://www.wsj.com/business/autos/what-a-15-000-electric-suv-says-about-u-s-china-car-rivalry-43cd564e?st=2PsQJy&reflink=article_copyURL_share SHANGHAI—The offer sounds like a scam—a new Toyota electric-powered sport-utility vehicle for about $15,000, complete with sunroof and cup holders. But the Toyota bZ3X is real, and it is actually on sale starting at that price. There is a catch: To buy one, you have to be in China. Economists talk about "utility." The value of something relative to something else. Yes, allowing Toyota to import this car would impact the sales of Teslas and GM EVs and whatever. But it would provide huge benefits to lots and lots of American consumers who wouldn't be stuck with ultra-expensive monthly payments, who would appreciate a truly affordable (and EV to boot) well made vehicle to serve their daily needs. What kind of communistic "you must support the American state-sponsored vehicle producers" system do we live in? Tesla is better-positioned than other American automakers to compete in China, since its models have always been all-electric and it makes the vehicles in Shanghai with Chinese batteries. Yet it has fallen behind in another aspect that makes China special: speed of development. Tesla has two models widely available—Model 3 and Model Y—and both have been on the market for years. China’s BYD has about 25 models, according to the market-analysis firm Inovev, and is constantly introducing more. Am I saying that the "communist" Chinese auto industry is more openly competitive - classic capitalist, where those who don't innovate fall behind and go out of business - than the American auto industry? Yes. Yes I am. Not that this matters, but there is a Tesla dealership about one block from the Silk Market in Beijing. The Silk Market is a huge individual vendor in kiosks market, very popular, so we would always go there. I was there with a guy who owned a Tesla, and we looked at their offerings at this dealership. He said that the prices, because of tariffs, were at least 30% higher than in the US. China has been screwing the US and it's labor for decades, and it is undeniable. That doesn't even address the pilferage of US patented products and other industrial espionage. Simply, it's what they do.
The Frankish Reich Posted 1 hour ago Author Posted 1 hour ago 58 minutes ago, sherpa said: Not that this matters, but there is a Tesla dealership about one block from the Silk Market in Beijing. The Silk Market is a huge individual vendor in kiosks market, very popular, so we would always go there. I was there with a guy who owned a Tesla, and we looked at their offerings at this dealership. He said that the prices, because of tariffs, were at least 30% higher than in the US. China has been screwing the US and it's labor for decades, and it is undeniable. That doesn't even address the pilferage of US patented products and other industrial espionage. Simply, it's what they do. Fair point. But dig deeper. Tariffs, yes. Subsidies? They work both ways. Tesla played the EV incentive game beautifully in the U.S., and even today makes a princely sum by monetizing those incentives and selling them to other companies. So when Trump or Peter Navarro says "reciprocal tariffs" include all kinds of other non-tariff barriers to entry, well, that's really hard to compute and that's not just a one-way street.
Trump_is_Mentally_fit Posted 1 hour ago Posted 1 hour ago 55 minutes ago, Homelander said: Right, the small business owners will just be out of business.
The Frankish Reich Posted 1 hour ago Author Posted 1 hour ago 8 minutes ago, Roundybout said: MAGA ism really is Maoism You will have as much as you need and not as much as you desire, so that others may have more someday as manufacturing jobs return. The new Mr. Ten-Year Plan.
sherpa Posted 1 hour ago Posted 1 hour ago 24 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said: Fair point. But dig deeper. Tariffs, yes. Subsidies? They work both ways. Tesla played the EV incentive game beautifully in the U.S., and even today makes a princely sum by monetizing those incentives and selling them to other companies. So when Trump or Peter Navarro says "reciprocal tariffs" include all kinds of other non-tariff barriers to entry, well, that's really hard to compute and that's not just a one-way street. The China thing is not even a question for me. I remember one trip sitting next to a Silicon Valley guy who was a CEO of a solar cell company. He relayed to me the issue of dealing with them. His company had developed a new technology for solar panels and was going to produce them in the area of China that does that. There is a Chinese gov requirement to submit product information to their gov once a certain level is reached, and they did. He said that two months after this submission, a Chinese factory opened less than a mile from where they were going to build, producing the exact same panels. No sympathy from me, and I could relay five stories more in addition. They are crooks who have been stealing and exploiting US and other western industry for years.
The Frankish Reich Posted 51 minutes ago Author Posted 51 minutes ago 32 minutes ago, sherpa said: The China thing is not even a question for me. I remember one trip sitting next to a Silicon Valley guy who was a CEO of a solar cell company. He relayed to me the issue of dealing with them. His company had developed a new technology for solar panels and was going to produce them in the area of China that does that. There is a Chinese gov requirement to submit product information to their gov once a certain level is reached, and they did. He said that two months after this submission, a Chinese factory opened less than a mile from where they were going to build, producing the exact same panels. No sympathy from me, and I could relay five stories more in addition. They are crooks who have been stealing and exploiting US and other western industry for years. Not denying that, but people used to say the same thing about Japan. That one worked out o.k. for us.
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