Is this America anymore?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I recall an NPR story/interview with a retired gentleman (may have been CIA, haven't been able to find a link) who said they/he used it quite a bit in Vietnam.  The long and the short of it was that you didn't really get much out of a prisoner, and the longer the torture continues, the less usefull they become (for both obvious and not-so-obvious reasons). 

 

I'm sure their are actual percentages that we will never see.

344553[/snapback]

 

Another thing to consider is what kind of "torture". Sleep deprivation and pulling out one's fingernails are both considered torture...but I'd wager that overall sleep deprivation is MUCH more effective.

 

But as for toture itself...ideally, no one shouldn't have to resort to it. As a practical matter...it has been and always will be an inescapable reality of the human experience. I'm pretty much resigned to its occurrence.

[BillsFanNC]

Lastly, anyone who thinks that the "Liberal" mantra is "Be nice to the TERRORISTS, and they will be nice to us" is a complete idiot.

344495[/snapback]

 

Mindset, not mantra. Some libs are guilty, not all.

[KD in CA]

3.  Is there any reason to believe that prisoner abuse/torture/whatever may actually have a negative impact on how the US is viewed globally? 

 

 

If the left wingers repeat it ad nauseam for months on end every time some prisoner stubs his toe? Yes, I'm sure it will have a significant negative impact on how the US is viewed globally. That's probably why people are wondering why the media can’t go a week without putting some bullsh-- ‘torture’ story on the front page that only serves to incite our enemies.

[Ghost of BiB]

...or more like, it is easier to just make ridiculous statements in hopes that people will blindly believe them. No need to actually back them up with facts.*

 

I am still waiting on the "Iraq never had WMD's" thingy from him. Just remember, facts are irrelevant when you have an agenda.

*MoveOn.org rule #7.

344406[/snapback]

 

I thought (might have to go back and look) that he finished his lies and misdeeds statement with a resound "Facts Suck". I simply wanted to be enlightened, as I have no understand of national policy and especially none concerning anything related to any of the WMD issues. All my opinions on anything are obviously driven by my blind allegiance to anything coming out of the right wing inspired hate media.

[KRC]

I thought (might have to go back and look) that he finished his lies and misdeeds statement with a resound "Facts Suck". I simply wanted to be enlightened, as I have no understand of national policy and especially none concerning anything related to any of the WMD issues. All my opinions on anything are obviously driven by my blind allegiance to anything coming out of the right wing inspired hate media.

344671[/snapback]

 

Well, we all know that your knowledge of national security issues is based strictly on what you hear from Rush Limaugh.

[Ghost of BiB]

Speaking of PTR, anyone noticed how quick he disappears? Starts the thread then walks. What's wrong with a little discourse? I'm still waiting for my deeply thought enlightment. Reading Ted Coppell transcripts to gain some more expertise enabling you to look down your nose at all of us blind minions?

[VABills]

Speaking of PTR, anyone noticed how quick he disappears? Starts the thread then walks. What's wrong with a little discourse? I'm still waiting for my deeply thought enlightment. Reading Ted Coppell transcripts to gain some more expertise enabling you to look down your nose at all of us blind minions?

344774[/snapback]

Kind of like Petrino, which damn we haven't seen in a while. Maybe he is looking for his gerbil again.

[TheMadCap]

Here's a quote from that article:

 

"Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time," Amnesty Secretary General Irene Khan said as the London-based group issued a 308-page annual report that accused the United States of shirking its responsibility to set the bar for human rights protections.

 

The use of the term gulag refers to the extensive system of prison camps in the former Soviet Union, many in remote regions of Siberia and specifically designed to hold political prisoners. The Soviets took over the system from the czarist government and expanded it after the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Untold thousands of prisoners of the so-called gulags died from hunger, cold, harsh treatment and overwork.

 

 

Yeah, that's an accurate comparison there. Good job Irene....

[Ghost of BiB]

Kind of like Petrino, which damn we haven't seen in a while.  Maybe he is looking for his gerbil again.

344775[/snapback]

 

Now, that is cruel. He might be a wuss, not by his beliefs, but by his willingness to express them and then walk away for three months because someone disagrees with him, but I've never thought of him as a gerbil fag.

 

Just a pasty lawn gnome.

 

At least you are a dwarf with a tan.

[VABills]

Now, that is cruel. He might be a wuss, not by his beliefs, but by his willingness to express them and then walk away for three months because someone disagrees with him, but I've never thought of him as a gerbil fag.

 

Just a pasty lawn gnome.

 

At least you are a dwarf with a tan.

344795[/snapback]

Not lately. Hasn't been warm enough to get out playing golf much.

[Ghost of BiB]

Here's a quote from that article:

 

"Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time," Amnesty Secretary General Irene Khan said as the London-based group issued a 308-page annual report that accused the United States of shirking its responsibility to set the bar for human rights protections.

 

The use of the term gulag refers to the extensive system of prison camps in the former Soviet Union, many in remote regions of Siberia and specifically designed to hold political prisoners. The Soviets took over the system from the czarist government and expanded it after the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Untold thousands of prisoners of the so-called gulags died from hunger, cold, harsh treatment and overwork.

Yeah, that's an accurate comparison there. Good job Irene....

344790[/snapback]

 

(shakes his head) Yeah, that's my post.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Here's a quote from that article:

 

"Guantanamo has become the gulag of our time," Amnesty Secretary General Irene Khan said as the London-based group issued a 308-page annual report that accused the United States of shirking its responsibility to set the bar for human rights protections.

 

The use of the term gulag refers to the extensive system of prison camps in the former Soviet Union, many in remote regions of Siberia and specifically designed to hold political prisoners. The Soviets took over the system from the czarist government and expanded it after the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution. Untold thousands of prisoners of the so-called gulags died from hunger, cold, harsh treatment and overwork.

Yeah, that's an accurate comparison there. Good job Irene....

344790[/snapback]

 

I've just read a few books on the Gulags (currently working my way through The Gulag Archipeligo). That's a pretty damned !@#$ing ignorant comparison to make...

 

...though coming from AI, it doesn't surprise me much. I've always considered them idiots - well meaning, perhaps, but idiots nontheless.

[Ghost of BiB]

I've just read a few books on the Gulags (currently working my way through The Gulag Archipeligo).  That's a pretty damned !@#$ing ignorant comparison to make...

 

...though coming from AI, it doesn't surprise me much.  I've always considered them idiots - well meaning, perhaps, but idiots nontheless.

344809[/snapback]

 

Coming from an idiot...you would know.

[TheMadCap]

I've just read a few books on the Gulags (currently working my way through The Gulag Archipeligo).  That's a pretty damned !@#$ing ignorant comparison to make...

 

...though coming from AI, it doesn't surprise me much.  I've always considered them idiots - well meaning, perhaps, but idiots nontheless.

344809[/snapback]

 

That was pretty much my point too...

[PromoTheRobot]

I'm not defending terrorists.  I'm not defending anything that they did that got them sent to Gitmo.  Let's just assume that every single one of the detainees there is the worst of the worst.  Every single one of them deserves to be there. 

 

1.  What is the USA's obligation to hold itself to a higher set of standards than how these people, and how other people/governments treat their own prisoners, or their own people, or innocent civilians?  People on this board are very quick to shoot down the "They do it, so it's OK for us to do it" arguement in other debates...why should it apply here?

 

2.  Does the use of "torture" (not very easily defined if you really think about it) actually lead to usefull intelligence (historically), or are they just giving up anything that pops into their heads to stop the torture.  Has torture/prisoner abuse ever been a usefull tool?

 

3.  Is there any reason to believe that prisoner abuse/torture/whatever may actually have a negative impact on how the US is viewed globally?  If we are to believe that the Bush foreign policy plans for the mid-east include the spread of Democracy and Freedom, how does any prisoner abuse, justified in the eyes of the US or not, help to spread these ideals?  Extra credit if you leave "Who the !@#$ cares" out of your response.

Lastly, anyone who thinks that the "Liberal" mantra is "Be nice to the TERRORISTS, and they will be nice to us" is a complete idiot.

344495[/snapback]

Thanks for trying to explain things for me, but it's pointless. Any issue that takes more than one sentance to explain is lost on them. If it ain't black/white, yes/no, their eyes glaze over, then they just go back to watching Fox News or NASCAR.

 

PTR

[PromoTheRobot]

Speaking of PTR, anyone noticed how quick he disappears? Starts the thread then walks. What's wrong with a little discourse? I'm still waiting for my deeply thought enlightment. Reading Ted Coppell transcripts to gain some more expertise enabling you to look down your nose at all of us blind minions?

344774[/snapback]

Unlike you I have a job and can't spend 18 hours a day arguing with people who only speak in one-sylable words.

 

But I would be happy to debate you on any topic. As long as we stick to documented facts, not something you heard on Savage Nation or Sean Hannity.

 

PTR

[Ghost of BiB]

Thanks for trying to explain things for me, but it's pointless.  Any issue that takes more than one sentance to explain is lost on them.  If it ain't black/white, yes/no, their eyes glaze over, then they just go back to watching Fox News or NASCAR.

 

PTR

344842[/snapback]

 

That the best you can do?

 

I know the shades of grey more than most people.

I will look you directly in the eyes when i talk, and my eyes are clear.

I don't watch TV news.

But, I do enjoy NASCAR. Give you that one. Thank you for belittling a few million people. You like basketball? I think it sucks.

[Ghost of BiB]

Unlike you I have a job and can't spend 18 hours a day arguing with people who only speak in one-sylable words.

 

But I would be happy to debate you on any topic.  As long as we stick to documented facts, not something you heard on Savage Nation or Sean Hannity.

 

PTR

344844[/snapback]

 

Yes, you stupid prick. I have a job.

[VABills]

That the best you can do?

 

I know the shades of grey more than most people.

I will look you directly in the eyes when i talk, and my eyes are clear.

I don't watch TV news.

But, I do enjoy NASCAR. Give you that one. Thank you for belittling a few million people. You like basketball? I think it sucks.

344845[/snapback]

Yeah you do have that fault don't you? I try not to hold it against you too much.

[Ghost of BiB]

Yeah you do have that fault don't you?  I try not to hold it against you too much. 

344853[/snapback]

 

And you have some morbid fascination with hitting little white balls with expensive sticks.

 

Whatever.

 

At least we can agree on Buffy.

[VABills]

And you have some morbid fascination with hitting little white balls with expensive sticks.

 

Whatever.

 

At least we can agree on Buffy.

344861[/snapback]

 

Just so long as I am first.

 

Actually the balls I use and lose are close in price to clubs anymore.

[Ghost of BiB]

Just so long as I am first. 

 

Actually the balls I use and lose are close in price to clubs anymore.

344866[/snapback]

 

I have a joke for you, later...when I can remember it.

[VABills]

I have a joke for you, later...when I can remember it.

344868[/snapback]

Focus

 

Oh sorry wrong person.

[Ghost of BiB]

Unlike you I have a job and can't spend 18 hours a day arguing with people who only speak in one-sylable words.

 

But I would be happy to debate you on any topic.  As long as we stick to documented facts, not something you heard on Savage Nation or Sean Hannity.

 

PTR

344844[/snapback]

 

We'll talk National Defense, National Strategy and National Security. What do you consider "documented facts", since I have authored some of them, I'd like to know?

[VABills]

We'll talk National Defense, National Strategy and National Security. What do you consider "documented facts", since I have authored some of them, I'd like to know?

344870[/snapback]

 

Damn I feel insignificant. All I have ever done is wrote an SOP for a base NBC team, and responsible for the upgrade of all Marine Corps systems back in the 80's, to include fiber optics comms at Quantico.

[Ghost of BiB]

Damn I feel insignificant.  All I have ever done is wrote an SOP for a base NBC team, and responsible for the upgrade of all Marine Corps systems back in the 80's, to include fiber optics comms at Quantico.

344873[/snapback]

 

Oh, another MENSA member.

[Alaska Darin]

Oh, another MENSA member. 

344878[/snapback]

Well, his arms are so short he can't pat himself on the back TOO hard.

[Ghost of BiB]

Well, his arms are so short he can't pat himself on the back TOO hard.

344887[/snapback]

 

Damn Hobbits.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

Unlike you I have a job and can't spend 18 hours a day arguing with people who only speak in one-sylable words.

 

But I would be happy to debate you on any topic.  As long as we stick to documented facts, not something you heard on Savage Nation or Sean Hannity.

 

PTR

344844[/snapback]

 

 

His job is writing the policies you want to debate with him.

[Ghost of BiB]

 

His job is writing the policies you want to debate with him.   

344894[/snapback]

 

 

I wasn't going to go that far...but there are all kinds of Bills fans. I DO want PTR's insight as to why I am a moron. He da man.

 

You want to talk intelligently about counter-proliferation issues? I'm dying for your insightful input.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I wasn't going to go that far...but there are all kinds of Bills fans. I DO want PTR's insight as to why I am a moron. He da man.

 

Well..."close enough for county work", as we used to say back in Bflo.

 

You want to talk intelligently about counter-proliferation issues? I'm dying for your insightful input.

344906[/snapback]

 

Uhhh..."Bush bad!"

[Ghost of BiB]

Come on big man, talk to me.

[PromoTheRobot]

Come on big man, talk to me.

344925[/snapback]

Pick the topic. The War in Iraq? Treatment of detainees? Dismantling of Checks and Balances? Committing troops to battle with insufficient resources? You decide.

 

So you say you authored some policies? At what level? Military? Cabinet? Congressional? I'd be real curious to know. (unless it's one of those "if I told you, I'd have to kill you" things) But if that's the case, what are you doing posting here?

 

PTR

[Ghost of BiB]

Pick the topic.  The War in Iraq? Treatment of detainees?  Dismantling of Checks and Balances?  Committing troops to battle with insufficient resources? You decide.

 

So you say you authored some policies?  At what level? Military? Cabinet?  Congressional? I'd be real curious to know. (unless it's one of those "if I told you, I'd have to kill you" things)  But if that's the case, what are you doing posting here?

 

PTR

344955[/snapback]

 

No, definitely not congressional. I do policy, counter WMD strategy and WMD related operational planning for defense. Not a secret to too many folks here, so...what the heck? Go ahead. Tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I only have 30 years in the business. You saw a TV show. Enlighten me.

[Ghost of BiB]

When it comes out of draft, I'll send you a copy of the National Military Strategy to Combat WMD. I'm one of the authors.

 

Tell me about your TV show again? You really piss me off.

[Campy]

Pick the topic.  The War in Iraq? Treatment of detainees?  Dismantling of Checks and Balances?  Committing troops to battle with insufficient resources? You decide.

 

So you say you authored some policies?  At what level? Military? Cabinet?  Congressional? I'd be real curious to know. (unless it's one of those "if I told you, I'd have to kill you" things)  But if that's the case, what are you doing posting here?

 

PTR

344955[/snapback]

Promo - if he's gonna' give you the choice of topic, go with something political like the checks and balances issues you mentioned above. IMHO if there is one poster to whom we all should defer on questions of terrorism, WMDs and the like, it'd be the Ghost.

 

He deals with all of that stuff and the oftentimes unpleasant realities that go along with it for a living - it really is his job. I can say that he's not some internet tough-guy or message board know-it-all after having met him when he was in town on business and he stopped by our Backers club to catch the Bills-Raiders game with us. We had the opportunity to talk, and I kept switching the topic while he was talking because his answers to my questions on things like terrorism, chem and bio weapons, etc, were really freakin' me out. He knows his stuff.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't engage him in debate, just choose your topic carefully.

[Dante]

Last night I was reading specific incidents of prisoner abuse at Guantanamo Bay.  One of the claims were MPs were throwing nerf footballs at the detainees.  Let me tell you, my heart really goes out to them on that one. 

344360[/snapback]

Yeah sounds traumatizing. Not quite as bad as our prisoners getting their head cut off on tv but almost as bad.

[SilverNRed]

Promo - I advise you go right ahead and debate Ghost. I don't think he's had a chance to thoroughly embarass someone since he returned to the board.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Sounds like this place has been bit by:

 

Federal Bureaucrat Virus

 

Divides your hard disk into hundreds of little units, each of which does practically nothing, but all of which claim to be the most important part of your computer.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

When it comes out of draft, I'll send you a copy of the National Military Strategy to Combat WMD. I'm one of the authors.

 

Tell me about your TV show again? You really piss me off.

345049[/snapback]

Well since you work in defense, tell me about the lack of armour for Humvees and the like. A lot of folks say they support the miltary, yet there seems to be little outrage over the fact that our soldiers went into a hostile theatre without proper equipment.

 

Now it's my understanding (from sources like the NY Times and PBS) that there is a philosophical battle between Donald Rumsfeld and the brass at the Pentagon. Rumsfeld seems to be pushing for a "quick strike" style of Army. Smaller, lighter, smarter, etc. But that vision doesn't mesh with the reality on the ground in Iraq.

 

Also, was there a miscalculation, either by the White House, or military planners, about how the Iraq invasion would play out after the fall of Saddam?

 

I could go on forever with questions. I'm really curious to get your take, since you are on the inside. In a nutshell, I feel that the entire Iraq campaign was started for the wrong reasons, not planned for the aftermath, and now we're in deep with young men and women losing their lives.

 

But that's my opinion. I want to get your side.

 

PTR