Gary M Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 31 minutes ago, Warcodered said: and 5 miles of it are new. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/09/06/fact-check-donald-trump-built-more-border-wall-than-meme-claims/3437653001/ Yeah because replacing old the old style with the new style shouldn't count. I'm sure no one was getting over/under/through it 2 hours ago, WideNine said: If it ever comes down to armed citizens vs the US government and its military, folks would be better off leaving the country. I hear the coast of Spain is nice. Not sure how many service members you know, but a lot are going to be pro 2A. I know a lot of the retired ones are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, Gary M said: Not sure how many service members you know, but a lot are going to be pro 2A. I know a lot of the retired ones are. I know enough, some in my own family - Army and Marine. Heck my own wife served in the Army. Some argue, but most agree that we need to keep guns out of the hands of criminals, and the mentally unstable. It is usually there that they don't really have a clue what to do beyond their concept of 2nd amendment intent. Most would say they are not criminals or mentally incompetent and have the right. Then I ask what policies would they create to keep guns out of the hands of criminals or the insane? I get nothing. What happens when you die, and you will someday? Do your ARs disintegrate, do they go to a licensed dealer to ensure the next owner has a background check? Or, do they go to that nephew who is a few beer's short of a 6-pack and lost his hunting license when he mistook a sheep for a deer? Too many guns in this country is part of the reason our police go into confrontations with ichy trigger fingers. It is dumb not to have better controls around gun ownership. Personally, I would gladly take on the extra hoops and oversight if it saved one innocent life and I know I am not the only responsible citizen that feels that way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 hours ago, WideNine said: That may have been the case when folks carried muskets. Now it is a delusional take of folks that watched too many action movies. If it ever comes down to armed citizens vs the US government and its military, folks would be better off leaving the country. I hear the coast of Spain is nice. At that point we could all say the great experiment of democracy called the USA had failed as we would not be able to stand in the way of an autocratic regime thus armed. Which is exactly why the military and its leadership pushes back against a President who is far too quick to dust off a Sedition Act penned in 1798. Or, good luck folks hunkering down in your bathroom with your ARs and body armor, while a remote controlled reaper drone flying at 25,000 feet surgically vaporizes you with a hellfire missile, or turns you into human confetti releasing a bunch of spinning blades. https://www.wsj.com/articles/secret-u-s-missile-aims-to-kill-only-terrorists-not-nearby-civilians-11557403411 Our military has become very efficient prosecuting anti-terrorism and asymmetrical warfare. Bro, the US military would NEVER unleash itself on the American people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Dragoon said: Bro, the US military would NEVER unleash itself on the American people. We can both agree there and thank God that for now we have men and women of high character and sensible leadership over our military who would condemn that kind of overreach by a sitting President. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/politics/trump-military-troops-protests.html Also by that rational, you eliminate the argument for citizens arming themselves with assault weapons as a last line of defense against a government gone bad. Since, as you say, our military would never back such a government. That leads us back to peaceful forms of protests and insurrection and voting as the rational tools of resistance to bad government. Edited October 23, 2020 by WideNine 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 16 minutes ago, WideNine said: We can both agree there and thank God that for now we have men and women of high character and sensible leadership over our military who would condemn that kind of overreach by a sitting President. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/07/us/politics/trump-military-troops-protests.html Also by that rational, you eliminate the argument for citizens arming themselves with assault weapons as a last line of defense against a government gone bad. Since, as you say, our military would never back such a government. That leads us back to peaceful forms of protests and insurrection and voting as the rational tools of resistance to bad government. 1. I stated the military could never be unleashed on the American people because of the rank and file, not the brass. I used to be a non commissioned officer in the Army — if I was ever told to do anything overbearing to US citizens I’d refuse and I know the enlisted soldier. The enlisted soldier would never. 2. I do not concede I eliminated the need for a well armed populace. The fact a well armed populace exists has been critical in keeping our government from becoming too authoritarian. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 Just now, Dragoon said: 1. I stated the military could never be unleashed on the American people because of the rank and file, not the brass. I used to be a non commissioned officer in the Army — if I was ever told to do anything overbearing to US citizens I’d refuse and I know the enlisted soldier. The enlisted soldier would never. 2. I do not concede I eliminated the need for a well armed populace. The fact a well armed populace exists has been critical in keeping our government from becoming too authoritarian. Well yes and no... I still do not believe a so-called "well-armed" populace is a major deterent because the gap in arms capability is just too large. Now folks could try to close that capability gap, then the rational becomes even more ridiculous...so you allow your average Joe or paramilitary to buy tanks and RPGs so our well-armed citizens are closer to being more capably-armed deterrents to an autocratic regime? ...the impractical and dangerous absurdity of that train of logic becomes clear. I do believe that the rank and file members of the US military as well as their leadership would refuse to be used in such a way against their own countrymen. So in truth it is the conscience and the sworn duty of our nation's military to protect this nation's citizens, combined with peaceful means of enacting government change which are the real deterrents. No need to arm folks with quasi- military assault weapons. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Dragoon said: Bro, the US military would NEVER unleash itself on the American people. But the US military would unleash itself against a cadre of heavily armed domestic terrorists bent on starting a civil war by kidnapping and murdering government officials if it came to that. Just as the FBI and the DHS did recently in Michigan. The idea that these private militias represent "the people" is bull manure. They don't. They never have. They represent some people who think like they do, but mostly they represent their own skewed worldview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spartacus Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 27 minutes ago, SoTier said: But the US military would unleash itself against a cadre of heavily armed domestic terrorists bent on starting a civil war by kidnapping and murdering government officials if it came to that. Just as the FBI and the DHS did recently in Michigan. The idea that these private militias represent "the people" is bull manure. They don't. They never have. They represent some people who think like they do, but mostly they represent their own skewed worldview. you are correct the rioters, looters and armed thugs terrorizing cities are what its all about these peaceful protesters represent the will of the masses People want their homes and businesses destroyed- payback for systemic racism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, WideNine said: Well yes and no... I still do not believe a so-called "well-armed" populace is a major deterent because the gap in arms capability is just too large. Now folks could try to close that capability gap, then the rational becomes even more ridiculous...so you allow your average Joe or paramilitary to buy tanks and RPGs so our well-armed citizens are closer to being more capably-armed deterrents to an autocratic regime? ...the impractical and dangerous absurdity of that train of logic becomes clear. I do believe that the rank and file members of the US military as well as their leadership would refuse to be used in such a way against their own countrymen. So in truth it is the conscience and the sworn duty of our nation's military to protect this nation's citizens, combined with peaceful means of enacting government change which are the real deterrents. No need to arm folks with quasi- military assault weapons. You made me laugh a couple posts back when you talked about militaries not being used against their own people and then you mentioned moving to Spain....a place where that literally happened not too long ago. I support the 2nd amendment. As an Iraq veteran I assure you, small arms and homemade explosives can be hell to the military. Trust me. 32 minutes ago, SoTier said: But the US military would unleash itself against a cadre of heavily armed domestic terrorists bent on starting a civil war by kidnapping and murdering government officials if it came to that. Just as the FBI and the DHS did recently in Michigan. The idea that these private militias represent "the people" is bull manure. They don't. They never have. They represent some people who think like they do, but mostly they represent their own skewed worldview. Ah....sure. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 8 minutes ago, spartacus said: you are correct the rioters, looters and armed thugs terrorizing cities are what its all about these peaceful protesters represent the will of the masses People want their homes and businesses destroyed- payback for systemic racism Pump the brakes on the fake news. I live near one of those "terrorized" cities. Two blocks around a federal building where each night idiots throw burning garbage at federal property protesting, while DHS robo cops stand guard and paramilitary folks come from around the country to stir things up and make things worse. It is like some kind of absurd comedy that is set on repeat. Every other hour of the day folks go about their lives, come and go, commute to work, and it is business as usual. You can go downtown, eat at restaurants, shop, whatever. I partly blame irresponsible media sensationalism, and then the idiots who buy into the "sky is falling" rhetoric of Trump trying to justify using DHS as his personal secret police. As long as the media is camped there the far left, far right, anarchists, and DHS will continue this farce for the cameras. If we ignore them maybe they will lose interest. The feds have a right to protect federal property, that I do not dispute, but it is hardly Beirut on a bad day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 41 minutes ago, Dragoon said: You made me laugh a couple posts back when you talked about militaries not being used against their own people and then you mentioned moving to Spain....a place where that literally happened not too long ago. I support the 2nd amendment. As an Iraq veteran I assure you, small arms and homemade explosives can be hell to the military. Trust me. Fine if Spain is not your cup of tea, then move to a cheap villa in Italy. Where one decided to go if this nation decended to such a state was hardly the point as you well know. The point was the absurd and delusional idea of the feasibility of armed conflict involving citizens against an autocratic US government backed by its military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, WideNine said: Fine if Spain is not your cup of tea, then move to a cheap villa in Italy. Where one decided to go if this nation decended to such a state was hardly the point as you well know. The point was the absurd and delusional idea of the feasibility of armed conflict involving citizens against an autocratic US government backed by its military. you miss my point. I was pointing out the irony in the destination due to your reason for going. It wasn’t a point, just a musing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Just now, Dragoon said: you miss my point. I was pointing out the irony in the destination due to your reason for going. It wasn’t a point, just a musing. Ah... I think you are referencing Spain's recent extreme quarantine measures? It does make one muse about how far a democratic government would go if we had something more virulent with a greater mortality rate than Covid-19. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragoon Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 12 hours ago, WideNine said: Ah... I think you are referencing Spain's recent extreme quarantine measures? It does make one muse about how far a democratic government would go if we had something more virulent with a greater mortality rate than Covid-19. No, I was referencing the Spanish civil war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niagara Bill Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 The swamp will be cleaned when he gets into his limo on the way out of the WH. Never ever ever has a leader since Germany 1934 to 1944 lied so much. Every single day, every single interview he makes up facts....when his pie hole opens...shtt comes out. Not saying he is not smart...just his facts and reality are 2 different things. Looks like Joe is turning the corner...but if trump wins...Russia, China will control the world because the US will be contemplating their own naval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Check Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-baby! Posted October 24, 2020 Share Posted October 24, 2020 19 minutes ago, Reality Check said: 👏👏👏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WideNine Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 13 hours ago, Dragoon said: No, I was referencing the Spanish civil war. You said when referencing Spain, "where that literally happened not too long ago". That threw me off as 1936-39 did not fit in my own take of not too long ago; it was a subjective reference. Not sure it fits our scenario either as their conflict was also very much a proxy war between Allied and Axis elements supporting either side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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