Scotland soccer fans, boo during moment of silence

[jarthur31]

I heard this on Jim Rome earlier today.....

GLASGOW, Scotland -- Celtic advanced to the Scottish Cup final after beating Hearts 2-1. Craig Bellamy and Chris Sutton each scored a goal.

 

Celtic, which won its 32nd Scottish Cup last season, will play Dundee United in the final May 28. Dundee United topped Hibernian 2-1 on Saturday.

 

Hearts fans booed during a minute's silence for Pope John Paul II, who died last weekend, and referee Stuart Dougal was forced to end it early. Most Celtic supporters are Catholic.

Nice going.  Maybe they can unify with the soccer fans from Mexico who shouted "Osama" at the recent World Cup game in Mexico City versus the US.

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You're mistaken. That was Sinead O'Connor with a bullhorn that had a deafening echo effect after an all-niter.

[Pete]

Perhaps our decency, honor and integrity is just on the surface Cincy.

'Cause if it were really true, how do we account for much higher rates of child pornography, child molestation, child and spousal abuse etc. etc. than other western nations?

301845[/snapback]

could you substantiate your claims with numbers please. I find it preposterous to think we have higher rates of spousal abuse then eastern europe. Your other claims I find preposterous as well. Perhaps we are the most candid and upfront with our worts. You might also consider that we are a nation of freedom and equality. We encourage and protect people who come forward.

[pkwwjd]

the reason I said don't go there was because that was a diversion from the thread and the topic at hand.

 

I just felt it was wise to stay away from the whole discussion of our "wall of separation"

[aussiew]

I find it preposterous to think we have higher rates of spousal abuse then eastern europe. Your other claims I find preposterous as well.

 

Pete: You've strayed a little. I don't consider eastern Europe western nations. I will stand by my claim that we have a higher percentage of those kinds of crimes than other western countries, e.g. Canada, Australia, Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, the Scandinavian countries etc. And as soon as time allows more exacting research, I'll send you facts and figures.

[Buffal0 Bill5]

Hmmm, pat yourself on the back all you want, I am sure someone could come up with many examples to the contrary.

 

While I can't really fathom what went in Mexico, the Pope being boo'd in Scotland is not all that surprising, and not all that hard to understand...I am not saying I agree with it, but there is a very recent bloody history between the Catholics and Protestants in Ireland and Scotland.  Our founding fathers implemented a seperation of church and state in our constiutution (I know, Republicans are doing their damndest to eliminate the seperation, but at least for now it still exists), it is not the same in those countries.

 

Politics and religion go hand in hand in Scotalnd and Ireland.  The Pope, in Scotland or Ireland, is as much a politcal figure, as he is a religious figure.  Their disrespect of him would be no different than Americans lumping all Muslims in with the Taliban...

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Have you ever read anything else our founding fathers have written? Your definition of separation of church and state is historically insupportable. Many of the founding fathers were ordained, (sarcasm)I'm sure their intention was to exclude any reference to God from the public arena. Read the early innaugural addresses. Read their correspondance. We do not lack for supporting dialogue as to their intentions. (sarcasm)I'm sure it's the Christians in america that are responsible for child porn and domestic violence. Probably James Dobson, he's a huge advocate of such things. No, its the Promise Keepers with all of their violent hatred toward women. Screw that love your wives as Christ Loved the church stuff, go home and beat 'em guys. Why did you bring up seperation of church and state in this thread? It seems to me we are reaping the results of strong attempts to remove religion from our government. Read the constitution again. Think historical context. The government will not establish a religion, ie. the Church of England. Go to any church you want on Sunday, or go to no church at all. Our government will not step in and make you change that practice. That is separation of church and state.

[Buffal0 Bill5]

John Adams in his Address to the militia of Massachusetts, 1798

"We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other."

 

George Washington in his Prayer At Valley Forge

"Almighty and eternal Lord God, the great Creator of heaven and earth, and the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ; look down from heaven in pity and compassion upon me Thy servant, who humbly prostrate myself before Thee.

Bless O Lord the whole race of mankind, and let the world be filled with the knowledge of Thee and Thy Son, Jesus."

 

President George Washington

"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports... And let us indulge with caution the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion... Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail to the exclusion of religious principle."

 

Charles Carroll Signer of the Declaration of Independence.

in his Letter to James McHenry, November 4, 1800

"Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure,...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."

[Pete]

Pete: You've strayed a little. I don't consider eastern Europe western nations. I will stand by my claim that we have a higher percentage of those kinds of crimes than other western countries, e.g. Canada, Australia, Great Britain, Germany, France, Italy, the Scandinavian countries etc. And as soon as time allows more exacting research, I'll send you facts and figures.

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You dont consider Czech Republic, Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland western countrys? Funny parts of Czech Republic are more west then Germany, Sweden, Norway, etc. Manipulate the phrase "western world" to try and validate your claim. Ok how about Columbia, Honduras, Mexico, Ecuador, etc. Go visit Sao Paulo and see the conditions millions of glue sniffing kids live under because their parents neglected them. As for molestation South American culture is different. Many in South America view a 14 year old girl sexually. Its a crime and immoral in our country. Do you think they pursue a case when an Ecuadorian has sex with a 14 year old girl as vigorously as the USA? You are distorting facts and discarding cultural standards.

[Alaska Darin]

Perhaps our decency, honor and integrity is just on the surface Cincy.

'Cause if it were really true, how do we account for much higher rates of child pornography, child molestation, child and spousal abuse etc. etc. than other western nations?

301845[/snapback]

We're better at compiling stats. Trust me.

[Alaska Darin]

Sounds like separation of church and state to me.

302000[/snapback]

Which explains all the religious symbolism all around the government's most recognized buildings, right?

[KRC]

Which explains all the religious symbolism all around the government's most recognized buildings, right?

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For now. It will be banned soon.

[Buftex]

the reason I said don't go there was because that was a diversion from the thread and the topic at hand. 

 

I just felt it was wise to stay away from the whole discussion of our "wall of separation"

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You obviously missed my point entirely. I was saying that it was no surprise that there was booinig during the moment of silence for the Pope, because he is as much a political figure in Scotland and Ireland as he is a religious figure. These countries, as I was saying, make no attempt to create a facade of "seperating church and state". You are taking something I said, completely out of context, and diverting fromt he "topic at hand". Que sera, Que sera.....

[Buftex]

Why did you bring up seperation of church and state in this thread?

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Again, I ask, just read my original post. I said that while it may not have been the best decorum to boo the Pope, it was not surprising that it happened, beacause Scotland and Ireland make no attempt to seperate church from state, so the Pope is as much hated as a politcal figure by Protestants, as he is beloved as a religious figure in by Catholics. Why is this so hard to fathom?

[Wraith]

Don't start throwing around the "seperation of church and state in our constiutution" -- just don't go there.  Whether or not you understand the original intent of that statement, it's foolish to go that direction.

 

BTW, what part of the constitution contains the phrase "separation of church and state"? or anything of the like?

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Well, since you asked, the issue was first addressed in the First Amendment:

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

 

In 1947 the Supreme Court added the stipulation in Reynolds v. United States that:

 

"The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever from they may adopt to teach or practice religion"

 

The Supreme Court clarified that statement again in 1971 when it ruled that a law can only be constitutional if it is: 1) Secular in nature 2) Be neutral towards religion 3) Not result in entanglements between government and religion.

 

These statements lay a solid groundwork for Separation of Church and State. The First Amendment is about as constitutional as it gets and the Supreme Court's sole purpose, contrary to the arguments of meddling congresses and grandstanding judges, is to interpret the constitution.

 

If quoting historical figures is the only thing you listen to, it was Thomas Jefferson who first coined the term "a wall of separation between Church and State"

[Pete]

You dont consider Czech Republic, Croatia, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland western countrys?  Funny parts of Czech Republic are more west then Germany, Sweden, Norway, etc.  Manipulate the phrase "western world" to try and validate your claim. Ok how about Columbia, Honduras, Mexico, Ecuador, etc.  Go visit Sao Paulo and see the conditions millions of glue sniffing kids live under because their parents neglected them.  As for molestation South American culture is different.  Many in South America view a 14 year old girl sexually.  Its a crime and immoral in our country.  Do you think they pursue a case when an Ecuadorian has sex with a 14 year old girl as vigorously as the USA?  You are distorting facts and discarding cultural standards.

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I am calling you out Aussie. Please substantiate or apologize and admit you were wrong

 

 

PS- perhaps you missed this thread-

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=21629&st=0

[Spun]

The comments made about the Pope being perceived and treated differently in Scotland than here may be very relevant. It is my understanding that in some European countries some of the locals boo their own anthems as opposed to the stoic silence displayed during the playing of the US anthem. Sometimes customs differ in ways that are difficult to understand. I am not Catholic but I would not boo the Pope. I don't view such expression as warranted and in my culture such expression is looked down upon.

[Pete]

I am calling you out Aussie.  Please substantiate or apologize and admit you were wrong

PS- perhaps you missed this thread-

http://www.stadiumwall.com/index.php?showtopic=21629&st=0

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still here Di and still waiting for some apologies. I could say Australian girls are by far the biggest bitches in the "western world" by your standards- but I wont. I travel alot and have met many Australians and I have yet to meet one I do not like. If I was to slur Australians- no reason to- most are great people!-but if my hypnosis on an Australian board was "Australian girls are bitches!" surely I could substantiate. Can You Aussie???????????????????????

 

PS if google(and 4 days!) dont work you are full of sh--!

[Pac_Man]

Those who talk about how the U.S. has less respect for human rights than other Western nations forget about France. I know several French people, and they've told me that country places zero emphasis on ethics. Zero. Generally speaking, attitudes like that don't appear overnight. In any case, look at France's human rights record over the years:

 

- In the French and Indian War (1700s) France allied with Native American nations against the British. France made no effort to stop its allies--various Native American tribes--from butchering the British settlers in the 13 colonies.

 

- In the period 1919 - 1933, France exploited Germany economically; even at times when the Germans were close to starving to death.

 

- France's exploitation of the Germans was also sexual, as France made little or no effort to prevent its soldiers from raping the German women in French-occupied Rhineland.

 

- In the 1930s, France pledged itself to defend the worst mass murdering government in human history--the Soviet government--from any kind of invasion.

 

- After WWII, France engaged in various forms of torture and other human rights violations in its colonies.

 

While no nation has a perfectly clean record, France's is appalling. I have to think that its lack of emphasis on ethics has a lot to do with that. Moreover, its record has gotten worse as the nation as become more secular. Contrast France's treatment of the Russian prisoners of war under Napoleon with its behavior in the Rhineland over a century later. In the first case, France made an effort to feed the POWs; even at times when its own soldiers were not completely fed.