Restoring Roger Maris' home run record

[RVJ]

Sounds good to me. I don't think they could ever get it finalized though.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylc=X3oD...ov=ap&type=lgns

[gantrules]

If this goes through then they should relinquish the Denver Broncos 97 & 98 rings, the NFC Championship for the Carolina Panthers, the Oakland A's WS ring and the list can go on.

 

The problem with this is it's still speculation and no record should be denied until there is hard proof that both Bonds, McGwire and Sosa used substances illegal to the game. Which will never happen.

[KRC]

There is no way that this happens. The domino effect (as mentioned by gantrules) would prevent it.

[CosmicBills]

If this goes through then they should relinquish the Denver Broncos 97 & 98 rings, the NFC Championship for the Carolina Panthers, the Oakland A's WS ring and the list can go on.

 

The problem with this is it's still speculation and no record should be denied until there is hard proof that both Bonds, McGwire and Sosa used substances illegal to the game. Which will never happen.

293016[/snapback]

Not only that, but how can you ever show that Roids was the sole reason for their success? What about the new/smaller stadiums, expansion, juiced balls etc.

 

Marris hit 61 in a 162 game season (longer than Ruth had) and he did it in an expansion year. So why restore his record? He had outside help as well.

 

My point, like Gant's, is that it's impossible to prove any of these factors lead to X amount of additional homeruns. The records should stand. The records will stand. People of our generation will always look down on their records (much like many looked down on Marris's), but in 50 years it will be just another blip on the baseball record book...

[jester43]

you also don't know how many pitchers were/are juiced...who knows, maybe the record should be 80?

[Ozymandius]

you also don't know how many pitchers were/are juiced...who knows, maybe the record should be 80?

293186[/snapback]

 

good freaking point

[Arkady Renko]

Maris at least still has the AL record.

[Arkady Renko]

Not only that, but how can you ever show that Roids was the sole reason for their success? What about the new/smaller stadiums, expansion, juiced balls etc.

 

Marris hit 61 in a 162 game season (longer than Ruth had) and he did it in an expansion year. So why restore his record? He had outside help as well.

293025[/snapback]

 

He did, but when other records are broken with help from the 162 game season, they don't mention this fact as often. I think the true testament's to Ruth's greatness was how much better he was compared to the players he played against. Didn't he have more home runs that all other teams combined one year?

 

Along with a 162 game season, Maris did have the majority of people rooting against him along with scattered death threats. So he had some disadvantages as well.

 

I think the recent era should be treated like the whole live ball v. dead ball era has been. Basically a general separation of accomplishments made in different periods. It hurts the innocent players, but that seems the fairest way to treat this.

[FTW_BillsFan]

First, I think it's a given that steroids help with physical/athletic performance. If it didn't the players wouldn't be taking the stuff. It's not good for you and will shorten your lifespan, so why would they take it unless it helped them.

 

Nobody cares about who has the most walks in the 90's or the most steals in 1997. There are some records that transcend the game and need to be perserved. Most homers in one season, Most homers career, Most strikeouts, batting over .400, winning the triple crown.... These records are legendary and need to be protected from cheaters in the game.

 

You also do not need to go back and change all the records. Steroids should go against individual records, not team records, unless you could prove that 1/2 the team was using, then I would agree. One out of 27? is taking roids so team records should be removed. That's just crazy.

 

There was an asterik by Maris's record because he played in more games. More games.... Bonds, McGwire, and probably Sosa all took roids and NOTHING should happen to them? There should be consequences for cheating and 2 great ones should be striking out all their records and no inclusion into the Hall of Fame.

 

The hard part will be proving that they took steroids. I think we have enough evidence on McGwire and Bonds. Sosa is the hard one. We don't hear ppl coming out of the woodwork about him. So even if they make it Sosa's record, sobeit, but to let McGwire and Bonds keep their records is letting cheaters win and you should never let that happen if possible.

[BF_in_Indiana]

I will take the side of Barry the jerk Bonds for once. Let's say for a minute that he was on the juice, does that make it any easier to hit a baseball? Barry was a home run hitter (not to the extent he is now) but steroids aren't going to increase your home run total. If they do it's probably by a number less than 5.

 

The real cause of the home run boom is simple. BAD PITCHING. How many teams are in the league now? How many pitchers are in the major leagues that should be in the minors? TONS.

 

That's why the home run totals have went up, not steroids.

[Arkady Renko]

I will take the side of Barry the jerk Bonds for once.  Let's say for a minute that he was on the juice, does that make it any easier to hit a baseball?  Barry was a home run hitter (not to the extent he is now) but steroids aren't going to increase your home run total.  If they do it's probably by a number less than 5.

 

The real cause of the home run boom is simple.  BAD PITCHING.  How many teams are in the league now?  How many pitchers are in the major leagues that should be in the minors?  TONS.

 

That's why the home run totals have went up, not steroids.

293400[/snapback]

 

Taking steroids isn't going make it easier to make solid contact with the ball, but being buffer allows you to drive the ball farther. Balls that used to be pop-ups become home runs and balls that used to be infield line drives become doubles.

 

If steriods didn't make a difference, why do they even bother taking them? To look good? If being stronger in general doesn't help being a slugger, why do players spend so much time in the weight room now?

 

Not to mention the fact that steriods don't just help you build muscle but also help you recover more quickly: something that is very crucial in keeping up your batting average and slugging in the summer months.

 

Why would bad pitching be the root cause? The population in both the United States and in other baseball nations have increased significantly. The pool of quality pitchers has grown along with expansion. I don't see why the quality of hitters would increase but the quality of pitchers wouldn't. You could argue that bad pitching has helped not everyone, but the elite hitters, but that doesn't explain the random increases in powers coming from players like Brady Anderson in recent years.

 

I can buy that pitching and smaller ballparks have contributed to the situation, but the sole cause? C'mon.

[jarthur31]

Along with a 162 game season, Maris did have the majority of people rooting against him along with scattered death threats. So he had some disadvantages as well.

 

 

LMAO! That is so true. Yankee fans booing one of their very own!!!

 

I laugh everytime I hear that their fans are the smartest in the world.

[Arkady Renko]

First, I think it's a given that steroids help with physical/athletic performance.  If it didn't the players wouldn't be taking the stuff.  It's not good for you and will shorten your lifespan, so why would they take it unless it helped them.

293383[/snapback]

 

Sorry, didn't see this. Didn't mean to repeat you in my last post.

[RunTheBall]

I think the Giants, Cowboys, and Redskins of the early 90's were all on 'roids and they should forfeit their super bowl wins.

 

That means 4 SB's in a row for the Bills! Dynasty Baby!!

 

RTB

 

P.S. Every major sport has numerous athletes taking steroids and/or other performance enhancing drugs. I find it comical that people are acting shocked that MLB has stars who took steroids.

[CosmicBills]

There was an asterik by Maris's record because he played in more games.  More games.... Bonds, McGwire, and probably Sosa all took roids and NOTHING should happen to them?  There should be consequences for cheating...

293383[/snapback]

 

It should be noted that using Steroids was never outlawed by the MLB until recently.

 

I'm not condoning them, but they didn't break any MLB rule. Neither did Maris. No records will ever be taken back. It's a moot point really.

[Arkady Renko]

I think the Giants, Cowboys, and Redskins of the early 90's were all on 'roids and they should forfeit their super bowl wins.

 

That means 4 SB's in a row for the Bills! Dynasty Baby!!

 

RTB

 

P.S. Every major sport has numerous athletes taking steroids and/or other performance enhancing drugs. I find it comical that people are acting shocked that MLB has stars who took steroids.

293530[/snapback]

 

The Olympics strips all medals if an athlete tests positive for steroids and other performance enhancers. DQing a whole team in a team sport, as you propose in your hyperbole, is unfair to the players who did not cheat on the team.

 

It is true that the science for cheating often will be ahead of the science testing the cheaters but in the anti-doping agency both worldwide and in the United States keep an extra sample to retest if no methods are uncovered. This happened recently actually. In the end, the best we can do to eliminate this from sports is what we have to do. Some people will get away with it, but some people get away with murder and rape, but we punish them anyway. (I am not equating cheating with murder and rape.)

[CosmicBills]

P.S. Every major sport has numerous athletes taking steroids and/or other performance enhancing drugs. I find it comical that people are acting shocked that MLB has stars who took steroids.

293530[/snapback]

 

That's the real question. It's visually obvious that steroids still exist in the NFL moreso than any other sport (15 years ago there were 4 or 5 guys who weighed over 300...now there are 100s of 'em. Something isn't right there). Yet because the NFL has the best steroid policy (even if they don't test for HGH) the perception is that the league is clean.

 

So, what is more important? To have the sport ACTUALLY clean, or just have it APPEAR that way? Baseball will clean up the roids for the public, but they will never be rid of it...so how will you ever know for sure if a guy is on the juice or not?

[Arkady Renko]

It should be noted that using Steroids was never outlawed by the MLB until recently.

 

I'm not condoning them, but they didn't break any MLB rule. Neither did Maris. No records will ever be taken back. It's a moot point really.

293543[/snapback]

 

This is a very good point. This is something that we often forget. I think, therefore, that the only punishment these people will get for their past transgressions is to their public image. Baseball cannot punish players who break rules made ex post facto. Still, I still believe that we talk about accomplishments, calling the past 15-20 years the steroid era is a fair thing to do. It is obviously nothing official, but I think it is a reasonable thing that the media and the fans can do.

[Arkady Renko]

That's the real question. It's visually obvious that steroids still exist in the NFL moreso than any other sport (15 years ago there were 4 or 5 guys who weighed over 300...now there are 100s of 'em. Something isn't right there). Yet because the NFL has the best steroid policy (even if they don't test for HGH) the perception is that the league is clean.

 

So, what is more important? To have the sport ACTUALLY clean, or just have it APPEAR that way? Baseball will clean up the roids for the public, but they will never be rid of it...so how will you ever know for sure if a guy is on the juice or not?

293548[/snapback]

 

It simply should be that all the professional leagues have to adhere to the testing and punishment that is done in the Olympics. Their system isn't perfect, but it is the best one that currently exists.

Edited April 1, 2005 by JohnnyB

[CosmicBills]

It simply should be that all the professional leagues have to adhere to the testing and punishment that is done in the Olympics. Their system isn't perfect but is the past one that is currently around.

293553[/snapback]

No arguments here.

 

I just doubt it will happen...it would be nice though.

[Like A Mofo]

Its gonna be next to impossible to pull that off....remember Im sure pitchers were juiced too...media usually seems to forget that part of it, Im sure the juice would help with pitcher's velocities, no?

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

I'm just glad that our country is in such good shape that governements all over the land at every level have nothing more pressing to do than legislate the proper manner of playing a game or insert themselves into private family issues...

[Tcali]

Sounds good to me. I don't think they could ever get it finalized though.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylc=X3oD...ov=ap&type=lgns

292901[/snapback]

Its actually Ruth's record--because Maris had the extra games...--lets give it back to Ruth.

[Tcali]

you also don't know how many pitchers were/are juiced...who knows, maybe the record should be 80?

293186[/snapback]

hey.......GOOD POINT!---juiced pitchers--tougher pitching---its only fair then that the hitters got to use the juice.

[Arkady Renko]

I'm just glad that our country is in such good shape that governements all over the land at every level have nothing more pressing to do than legislate the proper manner of playing a game or insert themselves into private family issues...

293890[/snapback]

 

....says the person who spends his time logging into a second screen name at a sports message board instead of doing something constructive.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

....says the person who spends his time logging into a second screen name at a sports message board instead of doing something constructive.

293939[/snapback]

 

Difference being: I'm a crap-throwing monkey. When I throw crap, I don't have any pretensions to calling it "leadership" or doing it "for the sake of the children".

[Arkady Renko]

Difference being: I'm a crap-throwing monkey.  When I throw crap, I don't have any pretensions to calling it "leadership" or doing it "for the sake of the children".

293942[/snapback]

 

All right, ManTheMyth... this specific resolution involved the North Dakotan State Senate, but I assume you were alluding to actions taken by our congress in regards to steroid use in baseball and in regards to Terri Schiavo. So I will try to address those concerns.

 

You obviously supported one position with Terry Schiavo and that's fine; it is a respectable side to take. Debating the issue over and over again seems pointless considering how thoroughly it has been discussed at TBD and elsewhere. But the other side thought it was murder so they didn't think it was a waste of time to have congressmen interrupt their vacations to do like an hour long vote. Big deal. You just thought it was a waste of time because you didn't like that one branch of government, the legislative branch, was getting involved after another branch of government, the judicial branch (on a state level) had already gotten involved in this personal matter.

 

As far as baseball goes, government has every right to be involved in that dispute if they want to be involved. Public money goes into baseball parks, federal law exempts baseball from anti-trust laws and remember that Congress is a large part of setting drug policy in this country. Using steroids without a prescription is illegal in this country last time I checked. In fact the whole controversy blew up over a FEDERAL case against BALCO. What has been going on in baseball has been an illegal drug ring and if baseball couldn't end its existence, Congress got involved. The fact that it went this far was MLB's fault, not Congress'. If you don't think drug use should be regulated by Congress, that's fine, but the law's the law. If Congress paid more attention to this issue because it involved baseball, fine, the public seems to care about it and that's who these representatives are accountable to.

 

And, um, I seem to recall some drawn out hearings about some stupid game show being fixed in the 50s? Didn't Congress waste a lot of time on that at height of the Cold War?

 

Congress isn't doing big "important" things all that much anyway. They pass laws and confirm appointments, hold hearings and negotiate over these votes. Because of this fact they have a lot of free time to do less important things. They pass seemingly pointless resolutions expressing outrage or concern about this or that. They sometimes pass resolutions as insipid as recognizing some celebrity's birthday. They take time to listen to the Backstreet Boys talk about strip mining and to Elmo talk about public television. They grandstand on every issue. Doing so on the fate of someone's life and on drug abuse and cheating in a sport seem just as reasonable opportunity for them to do so.

[Crap Throwing Monkey]

All right, ManTheMyth... this specific resolution involved the North Dakotan State Senate, but I assume you were alluding to actions taken by our congress in regards to steroid use in baseball and in regards to Terri Schiavo. So I will try to address those concerns.

 

You obviously supported one position with Terry Schiavo and that's fine; it is a respectable side to take. Debating the issue over and over again seems pointless considering how thoroughly it has been discussed at TBD and elsewhere. But the other side thought it was murder so they didn't think it was a waste of time to have congressmen interrupt their vacations to do like an hour long vote. Big deal. You just thought it was a waste of time because you didn't like that one branch of government, the legislative branch, was getting involved after another branch of government, the judicial branch (on a state level) had already gotten involved in this personal matter.

 

As far as baseball goes, government has every right to be involved in that dispute if they want to be involved. Public money goes into baseball parks, federal law exempts baseball from anti-trust laws and remember that Congress is a large part of setting drug policy in this country. Using steroids without a prescription is illegal in this country last time I checked. In fact the whole controversy blew up over a FEDERAL case against BALCO. What has been going on in baseball has been an illegal drug ring and if baseball couldn't end its existence, Congress got involved. The fact that it went this far was MLB's fault, not Congress'. If you don't think drug use should be regulated by Congress, that's fine, but the law's the law. If Congress paid more attention to this issue because it involved baseball, fine, the public seems to care about it and that's who these representatives are accountable to.

 

And, um, I seem to recall some drawn out hearings about some stupid game show being fixed in the 50s? Didn't Congress waste a lot of time on that at height of the Cold War?

 

Congress isn't doing big "important" things all that much anyway. They pass laws and confirm appointments, hold hearings and negotiate over these votes. Because of this fact they have a lot of free time to do less important things. They pass seemingly pointless resolutions expressing outrage or concern about this or that. They sometimes pass resolutions as insipid as recognizing some celebrity's birthday. They take time to listen to the Backstreet Boys talk about strip mining and to Elmo talk about public television. They grandstand on every issue. Doing so on the fate of someone's life and on drug abuse and cheating in a sport seem just as reasonable opportunity for them to do so.

293950[/snapback]

 

I'm not debating any issues. I'm throwing crap. Because that's what I do, I'm a crap-throwing monkey. And as such, I have nothing but admiration for my fellow simians who raise feces-throwing to high art through arguing that legislatively establishing a home run record is an important part of national drug policy. I'm merely a crap-throwing monkey, and nowhere near your league. *SPLAT*

[Arkady Renko]

I'm merely a crap-throwing monkey, and nowhere near your league.  *SPLAT*

293960[/snapback]

 

Thanks for the compliment. May I also commend you for your ability to string out a once half-funny joke for more than a year? I don't know who you are, but I'm certain that you must be a product of one of the wittiest members of the TBD brain trust. Tee hee!

[Tcali]

I will take the side of Barry the jerk Bonds for once.  Let's say for a minute that he was on the juice, does that make it any easier to hit a baseball?  Barry was a home run hitter (not to the extent he is now) but steroids aren't going to increase your home run total.  If they do it's probably by a number less than 5.

 

The real cause of the home run boom is simple.  BAD PITCHING.  How many teams are in the league now?  How many pitchers are in the major leagues that should be in the minors?  TONS.

 

That's why the home run totals have went up, not steroids.

293400[/snapback]

So all of a sudden pitching got bad since 1998??--I think not..its been bad for a while.And of course athletes start improving greatly at age 35 thru 40. uhmmmmmmmm....I will give this to Bonds though....He was a great player/great talent BEFORE he was juiced---then became superhuman with the juice boost. No one has ever hit like he has the past 5 years.

[Nirvjam]

I will use this thread to get on my soap-box to state that it is criminal that Roger Maris is not yet in the Hall of Fame. People often say that one good season, even a great one, doesn't merit Hall inclusion. I agree, so let's look at the whole record:

 

Here are some supporting points from this very good website:

 

Elect Roger Maris to the Hall of Fame

 

61 Single Season Home Runs (1961)

 

This record stood for 37 years,

longer than the record Maris broke,

the immortal Babe Ruth's 60-homers of 1927.

Roger remains one of only four players

to ever hit more than 60 homeruns in a season.

 

Two-time American League Most Valuable Player

1960 and 1961

Only 11 players have won consecutive MVP awards

 

-- all of the others (who are eligible) have already been inducted into the Hall of Fame --

Jimmy Foxx, Hal Newhouser, Yogi Berra, Mickey Mantle,

Ernie Banks, Joe Morgan & Mike Schmidt.

 

Other than those seven,

no other Hall of Famer has achieved this distinction,

including (to name just a few) Hank Aaron, Johnny Bench,

Roberto Clemente, Ty Cobb, Joe DiMaggio, Nellie Fox,

Lou Gehrig, Reggie Jackson, Al Kaline, Harmon Killebrew,

Willie Mays, Babe Ruth & Ted Williams

 

Lifetime 5.39 Home Run Percentage

Better than Hall of Famers Joe DiMaggio (5.29), Hack Wilson (5.13),

Johnny Bench (5.08), Yogi Berra (4.74), Larry Doby (4.73) Billy Williams (4.56)

and recent Hall inductee -- Bill Mazeroski (1.78)

 

Lifetime .983 Fielding Average and a Gold Glove

 

Better fielding average than most Hall of Famers,

including Hank Aaron (.980), Joe DiMaggio (.978), Roberto Clemente (.976),

Harmon Killebrew (.976), Ted Williams (.974), Billy Williams (.973),

Babe Ruth (.968), Willie Stargell (.961)

and identical to recent Hall inductee -- Bill Mazeroski (.983)

 

Maris had a better fielding average than

Mickey Mantle (.982), who was considered a truly superb outfielder.

Maris earned a Gold Glove, even though he played in an era

filled with Hall of Fame outfielders.

 

Lifetime Batting Average Comparable to Many Hall of Famers

 

Roger's .260 lifetime batting average is higher than that of

Hall of Famer Harmon Killebrew (.256), identical to Bill Mazeroski (.260),

and in the same range as many other Hall of Famers, such as:

Reggie Jackson (.262), Brooks Robinson (.267),

Mike Schmidt (.267), Al Lopez (.261), Willie McCovey (.270), Luis Aparicio (.262),

Johnny Bench (.267), Pee Wee Reese (.269), and Bobby Wallace (.267)

 

Selected to, and played in, 7 All-Star Games

 

The Baseball Hall of Fame has this simple criteria for election by the Veteran's Committee:

 

"Voting shall be based upon the individual's record, ability,

integrity, sportsmanship, character and contribution to the game."

 

Based on the Hall's own rule, Roger is certainly qualified for induction.

Roger Maris' record of achievement and winning deserves to be honored by the Hall of Fame.

 

The site listed above provides a link to enable people to remind the Committee on Baseball Veterans to consider Maris.

 

 

Bobby Doerr is in the Hall of Fame. Ok fine, but it is doubtful that we'll be seeing an hour-long special soon about him. Yet cable sports channels have had special documentaries, quite well done in fact, on Maris.

 

Or to pull a thought completely from left field (pun intentional) consider this: on an episode of Star Trek: the Next Generation, Commander Data, the android, is kidnapped by an art/treasure thief of the future. Among the thief's exhibits, encased in glass (not far from the Mona Lisa), sits one of his prized possessions: a 1962 Roger Maris baseball card. I liked the fact that you could push a button and an "authentic" bubblegum smell was released, but, hey, gee whiz, do ya think anybody noticed that the scriptwriters didn't use a "real" Hall of Fame player.

 

It is criminal that Maris is not in the Hall of Fame. Period.

[Arkady Renko]

Nirvjam, I am far from a Yankees fan, but I completely agree with you in regards to Maris. The man never got the true respect he deserved.

[jester43]

I will take the side of Barry the jerk Bonds for once.  Let's say for a minute that he was on the juice, does that make it any easier to hit a baseball?  Barry was a home run hitter (not to the extent he is now) but steroids aren't going to increase your home run total.  If they do it's probably by a number less than 5.

 

The real cause of the home run boom is simple.  BAD PITCHING.  How many teams are in the league now?  How many pitchers are in the major leagues that should be in the minors?  TONS.

 

That's why the home run totals have went up, not steroids.

293400[/snapback]

 

yo BF, they help in almost every way. you still have to have a good enough eye to make contact, but if you do, the ball JUMPS off the bat. they also help you get around on pitches by increasing your batspeed. sorry, there is no denying this.

 

not only that, but they speed RECOVERY, which prevents injury which keeps guys off the DL! don't you remember how much more time mcguire spent injured in the first half of his career?

 

that said, you can't change records because at any given time you could have half a dozen players on the field who were juiced and how and the hell can you ever go back and say what "should have" happened?