JohnC Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 On 4/3/2018 at 7:29 AM, GunnerBill said: In my mind because the floor is so low. To merit a 1st round pick I want to believe that even if you don't become my franchise guy you might be capable of contributing in some way. As high as the ceiling is Allen to me the floor is total, epic level bust. You are gambling on so many levels with him the way I see it. How many of those genuine coin flip types have worked out? I feel like most guys who go top 10 have a higher ceiling than Josh Allen. To me he is a project you need to sit him at least a year and you need to rebuild some of his game. I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. The mostly bench year for Mahomes allowed him to understudy to the point that the KC staff felt that he was ready to take over for their established qb. Dak Prescott certainly wasn't a polished prospect when he was drafted in the fourth round. Yet he was able to fairly quickly adapt to the pro game. When taking a calculated risk on a qb you have to consider not only his physical tools but also his personal qualities. If the prospect is a worker and is receptive to coaching then it's worth the gamble. Few would argue with you that Rosen is more of a finished product than Allen. On the other hand few can argue that Allen is more mobile and more durable than Rosen. Would I draft Rosen over Allen? Yes. But if my preferred option wasn't available then I would have no qualms taking Allen as a good option with the potential to end up being the best option. Going back to the Prescott analogy Allen is no less a prospect than Prescoot was coming out of college. (Most people would say he is a better prospect.) If he turns into a comparable player then who could say that it was a risk not worth taking.? The mistake made when evaluating qbs is that the issue shouldn't be what round you have him graded at. The issue is whether the qb has the potential to develop into a franchise qb. If you believe the answer is yes then drafting the qb prospect higher than his grade is the right thing to do. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson clearly demonstrate that point. Allowing perfect to be the enemy of doing good is a self-sabotaging philosophy to take when making a decision on a qb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 (edited) 20 hours ago, Thurman#1 said: Yeah, it's me obsessed with you? Is it me calling you cute? And filling in with the femmy little emos? It's you obsessed with me, dude. But yeah, when you talk QBs as if you knew about them, I am indeed going to remind people that your record says just the opposite, and you yourself set the knobs to 11 on your spectacularly, consistently wrong take on our QB situation. For three long severely dumb years, you spent thousands of posts telling everyone how wrong they were when they said he wasn't a franchise QB, when they said he couldn't throw to the deep and intermediate middle, when they said he didn't throw until he saw guys open and when they said he was obviously going to be gone before the 2018 season and all the other correct things that people said and you denied over and over and over again. Weird... didn't know the "I know you are but what am I!!!" comeback was still a thing Yep... pretty clearly you're obsessed with me. I came here to talk about Josh Allen, the substance of the thread. Instead of talking like an adult about the substance of your own post, which i I've responded to OR ignoring me, you continue to talk about me. Obsessed!!! I'm flattered 867-5309, you merely had to ask Sugah Edited April 10, 2018 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 3 hours ago, JohnC said: I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. The mostly bench year for Mahomes allowed him to understudy to the point that the KC staff felt that he was ready to take over for their established qb. Dak Prescott certainly wasn't a polished prospect when he was drafted in the fourth round. Yet he was able to fairly quickly adapt to the pro game. When taking a calculated risk on a qb you have to consider not only his physical tools but also his personal qualities. If the prospect is a worker and is receptive to coaching then it's worth the gamble. Few would argue with you that Rosen is more of a finished product than Allen. On the other hand few can argue that Allen is more mobile and more durable than Rosen. Would I draft Rosen over Allen? Yes. But if my preferred option wasn't available then I would have no qualms taking Allen as a good option with the potential to end up being the best option. Going back to the Prescott analogy Allen is no less a prospect than Prescoot was coming out of college. (Most people would say he is a better prospect.) If he turns into a comparable player then who could say that it was a risk not worth taking.? The mistake made when evaluating qbs is that the issue shouldn't be what round you have him graded at. The issue is whether the qb has the potential to develop into a franchise qb. If you believe the answer is yes then drafting the qb prospect higher than his grade is the right thing to do. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson clearly demonstrate that point. Allowing perfect to be the enemy of doing good is a self-sabotaging philosophy to take when making a decision on a qb. Sure, but Prescott was drafted in the 4th round. The Cowboys used their 1st rounder on Zeke Elliot... and did you notice what happened to Prescott without him on the field? So if you're saying we can get Allen in the 2nd-4th round... I agree, very worth that risk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 26 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Sure, but Prescott was drafted in the 4th round. The Cowboys used their 1st rounder on Zeke Elliot... and did you notice what happened to Prescott without him on the field? So if you're saying we can get Allen in the 2nd-4th round... I agree, very worth that risk There is a major difference between the Buffalo situation and the Cowboy situation. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for nearly a quarter century. The Cowboys had a legitimate franchise qb for more than a decade prior to drafting Prescott. If drafting a qb isn't a priority for the Bills then when is it? If you are arguing that the Bills should wait on the qb issue then your position is apparently contra to the position that this regime appears to be taking. If you are arguing that it is more important to draft a back higher than a qb then that is an absurd position to take for this franchise. If you want to wait on this issue then wait all you want. Just don't be surprised that while waiting at the bus stop it blows by you without stopping. If your destination is the road to nowhere just keep putting the priority off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 14 minutes ago, JohnC said: There is a major difference between the Buffalo situation and the Cowboy situation. The Bills haven't had a legitimate franchise qb for nearly a quarter century. The Cowboys had a legitimate franchise qb for more than a decade prior to drafting Prescott. If drafting a qb isn't a priority for the Bills then when is it? If you are arguing that the Bills should wait on the qb issue then your position is apparently contra to the position that this regime appears to be taking. If you are arguing that it is more important to draft a back higher than a qb then that is an absurd position to take for this franchise. If you want to wait on this issue then wait all you want. Just don't be surprised that while waiting at the bus stop it blows by you without stopping. If your destination is the road to nowhere just keep putting the priority off. Who wants to wait? I sure as hell don't. I've been pounding the table to trade up for a QB for a while now I just don't think it should be for a guy like Allen, who, as Gunner put it earlier, might have a very high ceiling, but also has a crazy low floor. Trade up for Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield. Definitely not Allen. I definitely want us to fix the problem. I really don't believe Allen fixes the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 23 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said: Who wants to wait? I sure as hell don't. I've been pounding the table to trade up for a QB for a while now I just don't think it should be for a guy like Allen, who, as Gunner put it earlier, might have a very high ceiling, but also has a crazy low floor. Trade up for Darnold, Rosen or Mayfield. Definitely not Allen. I definitely want us to fix the problem. I really don't believe Allen fixes the problem. We really don't disagree as much as it may seem. There are plenty of different evaluations on the top tier prospects. You and others may have a negative view on Allen while others have the opposite view. Bandit is much more optimistic on Allen's prospects than Gunner. And both of them have good eyes when evaluating prospects. With respect to Allen I'm aware that he requires more developmental time than some of the other prospects. That doesn't bother me at all. If it takes a couple of years to get acclimated to the pros then so be it. I'm not excluding a talented player just because he wouldn't have an immediate impact.. In my opinion the two most pro ready qbs are Rosen and Mayfield. What I have said on a number of posts is that I am open to a variety of candidates. Whether the Bills make a dramatic move up the board or stand pat to select a qb I'm open to the approach.. While you are more adverse to Allen for the reasons you stated I'm less reluctant to take a chance on him with a first round pick. Although he wouldn't be at the top of my list he would still be on my list to draw from if that is how this draft unfolds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadingpain Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 On April 3, 2018 at 8:40 AM, jrober38 said: Kiper and Mayock love big, strong, athletic QBs who have huge arms and terrible game tape. They pound the table for these type of players every year. The funny thing is that if you could pick only 1 QB from history to be your franchise QB for his entire career, you'd probably take Tom Brady. We all know how effective and successful he has been. Yet look how many times he relies on a "big arm" to fire the ball around the field. Almost all the time he is dialing the throttle back and completing short little passes or mid-range stuff....and that's all you need to do. If you can consistently complete a 4 yard or greater pass, you should move 80 yards down the field every possession you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CamboBill Posted April 9, 2018 Share Posted April 9, 2018 To me Allen looks like a good "raw material" prospects to that would be a good speculative pick at 1/22, and a bit of a reach at 1/12. I cannot imagine him being a top 3 pick ... at some point you have to consider the numbers and tape, no matter all the narrative around them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 14 hours ago, HappyDays said: The little I've watched of him, including those "all the throws" from the Boise St game I posted, just looks like a guy who's not a natural QB. And despite one of the perks for him supposedly being his familiarity with a pro style offense, much like Carson Wentz, he often looked pretty uncomfortable executing that offense, unlike Carson Wentz. Just say no to Josh Allen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted April 10, 2018 Author Share Posted April 10, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Weird... didn't know the "I know you are but what am I!!!" comeback was still a thing Yep... pretty clearly you're obsessed with me. I came here to talk about Josh Allen, the substance of the thread. Instead of talking like an adult about the substance of your own post, which i I've responded to OR ignoring me, you continue to talk about me. Obsessed!!! I'm flattered 867-5309, you merely had to ask Sugah Who was it who posted the romantic girly emo with the hearts? And now are telling me to phone and calling me endearments? Oh, yeah, you. And yup, I talked about you. Specifically, how your record shows with specificity and extreme efficiency that you know absolutely nothing about the QB position except how to be consistently wrong about it. Yup, I talked about that and will continue to do so. It was you who went so very far about putting everyone on record about QBs. You kept posting polls and telling everyone they should go on record. And then when someone calls you on that record you're all surprised and butt-hurt. You brought this on yourself. I'm finished with this for now, but yeah, when you start to act like you know something about QBs again, I'll bring up the inexhaustible proof you lavished on this board for three years that you don't know squat about them. Edited April 10, 2018 by Thurman#1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted April 10, 2018 Author Share Posted April 10, 2018 15 hours ago, JohnC said: I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. Yup, this. Probably Brady, Brees and Rodgers are the three best in the league. Each got a year off, minimum, to learn and watch and figure things out. Nothing wrong with needing development. It's not ideal, but if a guy becomes a franchise QB, that he needs a year on the bench to do so is all but inconsequential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 17 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said: Who was it who posted the romantic girly emo with the hearts? And now are telling me to phone and calling me endearments? Oh, yeah, you. And yup, I talked about you. Specifically, how your record shows with specificity and extreme efficiency that you know absolutely nothing about the QB position except how to be consistently wrong about it. Yup, I talked about that and will continue to do so. It was you who went so very far about putting everyone on record about QBs. You kept posting polls and telling everyone they should go on record. And then when someone calls you on that record you're all surprised and butt-hurt. You brought this on yourself. I'm finished with this for now, but yeah, when you start to act like you know something about QBs again, I'll bring up the inexhaustible proof you lavished on this board for three years that you don't know squat about them. Still talking about me. Weird. And a little sad. Sad because of some very obvious warped misrepresentations in your memory. Yep, I've been wrong about multiple things. Sometimes I've been wildly wrong. As have you. Our startling difference? I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. You... not so much. Demonstrates that you have some stunted emotional or intellectual development going on over there. I hope you work that out, for your own day to day well-being Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted April 10, 2018 Author Share Posted April 10, 2018 2 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said: Still talking about me. Weird. And a little sad. Sad because of some very obvious warped misrepresentations in your memory. Yep, I've been wrong about multiple things. Sometimes I've been wildly wrong. As have you. Our startling difference? I'm happy to admit when I'm wrong. You... not so much. Demonstrates that you have some stunted emotional or intellectual development going on over there. I hope you work that out, for your own day to day well-being Well, yeah, if "you" is your inability to get anything whatsoever right about quarterbacks over a long three year period, yeah, I'm talking about "you." And will continue to do so. You haven't been wrong sometimes. You've been wrong virtually without exception, due to your wild Tyrod obsession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 17 hours ago, JohnC said: I don't understand the argument that by having a redshirt year in the pros that it is a strike against you. Goff and Mahomes didn't play much in their rookie years. For Goff that year mostly spent on the bench not only didn't hurt him but it enhanced his preparation. The mostly bench year for Mahomes allowed him to understudy to the point that the KC staff felt that he was ready to take over for their established qb. Dak Prescott certainly wasn't a polished prospect when he was drafted in the fourth round. Yet he was able to fairly quickly adapt to the pro game. When taking a calculated risk on a qb you have to consider not only his physical tools but also his personal qualities. If the prospect is a worker and is receptive to coaching then it's worth the gamble. Few would argue with you that Rosen is more of a finished product than Allen. On the other hand few can argue that Allen is more mobile and more durable than Rosen. Would I draft Rosen over Allen? Yes. But if my preferred option wasn't available then I would have no qualms taking Allen as a good option with the potential to end up being the best option. Going back to the Prescott analogy Allen is no less a prospect than Prescoot was coming out of college. (Most people would say he is a better prospect.) If he turns into a comparable player then who could say that it was a risk not worth taking.? The mistake made when evaluating qbs is that the issue shouldn't be what round you have him graded at. The issue is whether the qb has the potential to develop into a franchise qb. If you believe the answer is yes then drafting the qb prospect higher than his grade is the right thing to do. Dak Prescott and Russell Wilson clearly demonstrate that point. Allowing perfect to be the enemy of doing good is a self-sabotaging philosophy to take when making a decision on a qb. To be clear I was not saying needing a redshirt season was a black mark against you. I think even with a redshirt season Allen is a coin flip. As for everyone having him above Dak.... nope. I have him graded below where I had Dak. I totally get that Quarterbacks are worth the risk and I suppose I would still rather the Bills take Josh Allen than come out of day 1 with no QB and two defensive pieces. I would still feel like that was a less than optimum solution though and in my mind the chances are in 2020 or 2021 we would be back in the position needing to take a QB. Possibly with the process era lying among the wreckage and another new double act taking their shot. He is my 6th QB for a reason. I see fewer of the things that I believe help a QB be successful at the next level on his tape compared to the others. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said: Well, yeah, if "you" is your inability to get anything whatsoever right about quarterbacks over a long three year period, yeah, I'm talking about "you." And will continue to do so. You haven't been wrong sometimes. You've been wrong virtually without exception, due to your wild Tyrod obsession. Hmmm... wrong without exception, eh??? Tell ya what, since you're so obsessed with me, tell me the myriad of things I've been wrong on and we'll cross-reference with reality since, ya know, obsessed people are really hard to trust, especially when they're people who are emotionally or mentally stunted in development. Unfortunately, I haven't kept track of every tiny thing you've gotten wrong like you have with me since I'm more of a lemonade than lemon guy. But hey, we can work on this moving forward. Hey!!!! How's this Josh Allen conversation going, anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 5 hours ago, GunnerBill said: To be clear I was not saying needing a redshirt season was a black mark against you. I think even with a redshirt season Allen is a coin flip. As for everyone having him above Dak.... nope. I have him graded below where I had Dak. I totally get that Quarterbacks are worth the risk and I suppose I would still rather the Bills take Josh Allen than come out of day 1 with no QB and two defensive pieces. I would still feel like that was a less than optimum solution though and in my mind the chances are in 2020 or 2021 we would be back in the position needing to take a QB. Possibly with the process era lying among the wreckage and another new double act taking their shot. He is my 6th QB for a reason. I see fewer of the things that I believe help a QB be successful at the next level on his tape compared to the others. I'm not advocating that Allen be our first consideration as a qb prospect. If he ends up being our option then so be it. If he turns out to be a Dak caliber of qb then I won't come away disappointed. As I have stated before it doesn't matter to me what grade he or any other prospect is given or even where he ranks with his qb class. The issue is whether he can be a franchise qb for your team. I believe that if he is handled smartly he can be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domdab99 Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 Josh Allen gets over 90 despite being unable to complete passes, a stat that nobody has ever improved in the NFL vs college (with a reasonable sample size) to my knowledge. Code: QB career completion % NCAA NFL J. McCown 51.2 60.4 Stafford 57.1 62.0 T. Taylor 57.2 62.4 Cutler 57.2 62.0 [Air Raid NCAA offense] G. Smith 67.4 57.9 Keenum 69.4 61.9 Weeden 69.5 57.9 Overall college completion % is pretty disingenuous especially since three of those players had significant freshman-year experience. Stafford and Taylor significantly improved over the course of their college careers. Cutler's numbers are depressed by a 48.6% completion rate as a freshman, and he was carrying the worst team in the SEC McCown just isn't good. What's Josh Allen's excuse for having a top-10 defense in a soft conference and still leading one of the worst passing offenses in FBS and not improving at all from 2016 to 2017 *************** Josh Allen is a massive bust and the Bills need to stay far, far away from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 1 hour ago, Domdab99 said: Josh Allen gets over 90 despite being unable to complete passes, a stat that nobody has ever improved in the NFL vs college (with a reasonable sample size) to my knowledge. Code: QB career completion % NCAA NFL J. McCown 51.2 60.4 Stafford 57.1 62.0 T. Taylor 57.2 62.4 Cutler 57.2 62.0 [Air Raid NCAA offense] G. Smith 67.4 57.9 Keenum 69.4 61.9 Weeden 69.5 57.9 Overall college completion % is pretty disingenuous especially since three of those players had significant freshman-year experience. Stafford and Taylor significantly improved over the course of their college careers. Cutler's numbers are depressed by a 48.6% completion rate as a freshman, and he was carrying the worst team in the SEC McCown just isn't good. What's Josh Allen's excuse for having a top-10 defense in a soft conference and still leading one of the worst passing offenses in FBS and not improving at all from 2016 to 2017 *************** Josh Allen is a massive bust and the Bills need to stay far, far away from him. I really really think 2 things are happening here: 1) Everyone watched Carson Wentz turn into an overnight superstar with the Eagles this year having run the same system and been in a pro-style offense like Allen... actually virtually the exact same offense as Allen against similar competition. and 2) Allen was very good (but not great) in 2016 and was being seriously pumped up by pundits and the media as being one of the headliners to watch as a QB prospect for this draft. He's obviously one of the most physically gifted QBs in years, so it feels easy to get on the hype train early. Pundits and media hate being wrong, so despite a pretty wildly disappointing 2017 season, plenty of excuses are being pushed for him, so much so that he's being propped up as one of the top QBs in a strong QB class in a way that I don't think has ever happened historically in the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T master Posted April 10, 2018 Share Posted April 10, 2018 So they have a QB coach that couldn't stick on a NFL roster teaching them how to be a good NFL QB ! I don't see anything wrong with that !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurman#1 Posted April 11, 2018 Author Share Posted April 11, 2018 (edited) On 4/10/2018 at 5:22 PM, transplantbillsfan said: Hmmm... wrong without exception, eh??? Tell ya what, since you're so obsessed with me, tell me the myriad of things I've been wrong on and we'll cross-reference with reality since, ya know, obsessed people are really hard to trust, especially when they're people who are emotionally or mentally stunted in development. Unfortunately, I haven't kept track of every tiny thing you've gotten wrong like you have with me since I'm more of a lemonade than lemon guy. But hey, we can work on this moving forward. Hey!!!! How's this Josh Allen conversation going, anyway? Yup. On the major things, wrong without exception. And the people on these boards already know, they watched you not just say these things but attempt to ram them down our throats, and repeat and repeat and repeat them due to the apparent belief that if you were the last person to talk in a thread it showed you were right. You refused to stop being wrong at volume 11. I've had plenty of plenty of mistakes along the way too, but on Tyrod, I was pretty much right the whole way along. Not because I'm smart or anything but because it was pretty much obvious all the way along what the likely outcome would be. I said there was a pretty decent chance that he wasn't what he'd been in his first year, that he was fairly likely to be what he'd been in the second half of the first year from the Pats game on. Correct. The remaining two years were nearly exactly the same passer rating as he'd had in that last half. That he would have to improve a lot in his second year to be a franchise QB while you were busy telling everyone he was a franchise guy. At one point for a month or so you even tried to sell that he was already near-elite, based on his QBR. I said he threw to the deep and intermediate middle very infrequently and not very well. I said he didn't throw anticipation throws often enough. I said he said he might stay if he took a pay cut but if he didn't he'd be gone. I said after he was benched that he was almost certainly going to be gone while you went on and on and on about how he was probably going to be our starter in 2018. You fought like a rabid weasel against pretty much all of this. The people on here didn't see it for the full time. The people on both boards know. You were wrong again and again on what Tyrod is ... and you were as relentless and consistent about it as the beat at a techno club. Edited April 11, 2018 by Thurman#1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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