terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: They panicked. The Bills didn't. As you say there is no such thing as overpayment. If true (and Inwould argue your point) the Bills can overpay to get ahead of them. All the Jets did is guarantee they potentially get the 3rd QB on their board There look to be 4 franchise qb's this draft. Good for the Jets to guarantee themselves 1 of them. That makes 2 franchise qb's in the division now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, terrytate said: There look to be 4 franchise qb's this draft. Good for the Jets to guarantee themselves 1 of them. That makes 2 franchise qb's in the division now. You don't know that though. No one does. as I have said continually, this comes down to Beane's thoughts about these QBs. If he feels one of them is the answer he can go get him. The Jets deal brings more clarity to where he needs to get to andbitbis oikelybhe needed to get to 1 or 2 anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 1 minute ago, oldmanfan said: You don't know that though. No one does. as I have said continually, this comes down to Beane's thoughts about these QBs. If he feels one of them is the answer he can go get him. The Jets deal brings more clarity to where he needs to get to andbitbis oikelybhe needed to get to 1 or 2 anyway You're right. There look to be 4 franchise qb prospects. There is going to be so much competition at 4 that it makes no sense to make that huge of a jump from 4-12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 3 minutes ago, terrytate said: You're right. There look to be 4 franchise qb prospects. There is going to be so much competition at 4 that it makes no sense to make that huge of a jump from 4-12 I think he's being smart if he waits till draft day to move. Again it's whether he sees a guy as a guy he has to have. He has the ammunition to swing a deal and can close out others by waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, oldmanfan said: I think he's being smart if he waits till draft day to move. Again it's whether he sees a guy as a guy he has to have. He has the ammunition to swing a deal and can close out others by waiting. There is only 1 draft spot available. 3 qb's are already off the board. If you want one of the top 4 franchise qb prospects in this draft you have to get to 4. Teams are already submitting offers to the browns. I would not be Surprised to see that pick traded this week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, terrytate said: There is only 1 draft spot available. 3 qb's are already off the board. If you want one of the top 4 franchise qb prospects in this draft you have to get to 4. Teams are already submitting offers to the browns. I would not be Surprised to see that pick traded this week. They can also move to 1 or 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said: They can also move to 1 or 2. No they can't. Browns will draft their qb at 1 , and giants will draft their new franchise qb at 2. If you honestly believe Barkley will go anywhere with the first two picks you are getting your hopes up. And lets say one of those teams wants barkley, why trade with the bills at 12 that takes you out of the barkley sweepstakes. Denver could move up from 5-4 easily, and the browns still get barkley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, terrytate said: No they can't. Browns will draft their qb at 1 , and giants will draft their new franchise qb at 2. If you honestly believe Barkley will go anywhere with the first two picks you are getting your hopes up. And lets say one of those teams wants barkley, why trade with the bills at 12 that takes you out of the barkley sweepstakes. Denver could move up from 5-4 easily, and the browns still get barkley. Yes they can. As you said no price is too small if it's the guy they want. They can package picks this year, next year, throw Shady in, whatever if it's the guy they have to have. I have not mentioned Barkley all day; I have no idea why you brought that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, oldmanfan said: Yes they can. As you said no price is too small if it's the guy they want. They can package picks this year, next year, throw Shady in, whatever if it's the guy they have to have. I have not mentioned Barkley all day; I have no idea why you brought that up. There is no way either of those two teams trade the top 2 picks. Both are in need of a young franchise qb, the most important position in sports. I would bet every penny i own that the browns and giants stay where they are. It is becoming increasingly clear that the only position in football that truly matters is the qb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, terrytate said: There is no way either of those two teams trade the top 2 picks. Both are in need of a young franchise qb, the most important position in sports. I would bet every penny i own that the browns and giants stay where they are. It is becoming increasingly clear that the only position in football that truly matters is the qb. Well, we will see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alluro Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 55 minutes ago, terrytate said: There is no way either of those two teams trade the top 2 picks. Both are in need of a young franchise qb, the most important position in sports. I would bet every penny i own that the browns and giants stay where they are. It is becoming increasingly clear that the only position in football that truly matters is the qb. 3 of the 4 Quarterbacks that made the championship games this year were Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum. Build a solid team and you can win with any competent player at QB. I am going to be ecstatic if the Bills can get Lamar Jackson at 12 as I feel he is the best player in this draft anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, alluro said: 3 of the 4 Quarterbacks that made the championship games this year were Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum. Build a solid team and you can win with any competent player at QB. I am going to be ecstatic if the Bills can get Lamar Jackson at 12 as I feel he is the best player in this draft anyway. 1. If getting to the championship game is your idea of success then that is sad. 2. Foles had to play perfect just to beat brady. And Foles away from jeff Fisher is a pro bowl qb, who has won a probowl mvp, thrown 7 touchdown passes in a season, and has had a record setting season . So big difference between foles and the other qb's that sh** the bed when it was time to shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 minutes ago, alluro said: 3 of the 4 Quarterbacks that made the championship games this year were Blake Bortles, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum. Build a solid team and you can win with any competent player at QB. I am going to be ecstatic if the Bills can get Lamar Jackson at 12 as I feel he is the best player in this draft anyway. Youre nuts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alluro Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 10 minutes ago, terrytate said: 1. If getting to the championship game is your idea of success then that is sad. 2. Foles had to play perfect just to beat brady. And Foles away from jeff Fisher is a pro bowl qb, who has won a probowl mvp, thrown 7 touchdown passes in a season, and has had a record setting season . So big difference between foles and the other qb's that sh** the bed when it was time to shine. The second season in Chip Kelly's offense and Foles came back down to earth -- so much so that the Eagles, Rams, and Chiefs all didn't see a 'pro bowl qb' in Foles. I would argue making the Pro Bowl isn't that significant anyway as a number of mediocre talents at the position have been in that game. Tom Brady is arguably the best player to ever play. The fact a journeyman like Foles was able to outplay him on the biggest stage in sports is telling. And because only one team can win the superbowl, getting to a championship is a great season. If you build a team capable of getting that far, all it takes is a few things to break right in your direction and you can win it all. So yes, getting to a championship game is a successful season in my book. 19 minutes ago, joesixpack said: Youre nuts. Beane has been extremely positive in his public statements about Jackson, even comparing him to Cam Newton. Let those other teams sell the farm while we get the best player in the draft anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, alluro said: The second season in Chip Kelly's offense and Foles came back down to earth -- so much so that the Eagles, Rams, and Chiefs all didn't see a 'pro bowl qb' in Foles. I would argue making the Pro Bowl isn't that significant anyway as a number of mediocre talents at the position have been in that game. Tom Brady is arguably the best player to ever play. The fact a journeyman like Foles was able to outplay him on the biggest stage in sports is telling. And because only one team can win the superbowl, getting to a championship is a great season. If you build a team capable of getting that far, all it takes is a few things to break right in your direction and you can win it all. So yes, getting to a championship game is a successful season in my book. 1. As a Nick foles fan , there was more to it than just him falling back to earth that 2nd year. There were huge changes made that were disastrous on gm chip kellys part. 2. Foles did not outplay brady. Brady threw for a superbowl record , and he didn't punt once. 3. Look at the previous qb's in the super bowl the past 11 years. only 3 will not make the hall of fame. But keep talking yourself into legitimizing journeymen qb's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alluro Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 11 minutes ago, terrytate said: 1. As a Nick foles fan , there was more to it than just him falling back to earth that 2nd year. There were huge changes made that were disastrous on gm chip kellys part. 2. Foles did not outplay brady. Brady threw for a superbowl record , and he didn't punt once. 3. Look at the previous qb's in the super bowl the past 11 years. only 3 will not make the hall of fame. But keep talking yourself into legitimizing journeymen qb's. Foles completed a higher percentage of his passes, didn't turn it over, and has the same 3 passing TDs so you can argue he did. More importantly, I won't argue with you that having a great QB sets you up for success more than not having one. That seems pretty obvious, but if you look at those QBs over the past 11 years that are hall of famers, where were they drafted? Sure, you have the mannings at the top of the draft, but you also have your Big Ben's at the 11th pick, your Drew brees's in the second round, Tom Brady in the 6th round, Kurt Warner undrafted, Russell Wilson in the 3rd round, Aaron Rodgers in the LATE first round. Buffalo has the 12th pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrytate Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 Just now, alluro said: Foles completed a higher percentage of his passes, didn't turn it over, and has the same 3 passing TDs so you can argue he did. More importantly, I won't argue with you that having a great QB sets you up for success more than not having one. That seems pretty obvious, but if you look at those QBs over the past 11 years that are hall of famers, where were they drafted? Sure, you have the mannings at the top of the draft, but you also have your Big Ben's at the 11th pick, your Drew brees's in the second round, Tom Brady in the 6th round, Kurt Warner undrafted, Russell Wilson in the 3rd round, Aaron Rodgers in the LATE first round. Buffalo has the 12th pick. Foles threw an interception. Brady just had the greatest super bowl qb performance ever and still lost which is crazy. The Rodgers draft was weird, everyone knew that he was either going number 1 or he was going to slide. But regardless , yes you can find qb's outside the top of the draft. And the bills clearly have been successful with that strategy..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndyMark Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 2 hours ago, terrytate said: There is no such thing as over payment. That is a thing teams say when they are sitting on the sidelines watching other teams wheel and deal. This is a qb league , and the jets and bills have not had a legitimate on in a long time. They made the move we did not. I think the Saints fans, circa the Ditka era (debacle) would like a word with you. Or, if you recall the Dallas / Minnesota Herschel Walker trade, I feel the Vikings fans would think otherwise. I get the passion of forfeiting most of your draft capital if (a) there was an Andrew Luck available or (b) QB is the only position of need on the team. However, neither are true here in 2018 with the Buffalo Bills. So, yes, there is a thing of over payment. Absolutely. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alluro Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 5 minutes ago, terrytate said: Foles threw an interception. Brady just had the greatest super bowl qb performance ever and still lost which is crazy. The Rodgers draft was weird, everyone knew that he was either going number 1 or he was going to slide. But regardless , yes you can find qb's outside the top of the draft. And the bills clearly have been successful with that strategy..... Even moving up is no guarantee at getting one of those guys. It could be a 2006 type of draft where Leinart, Cutler, and Young are all "franchise" players and none of them come close to reaching that status. I'd rather be more conservative and build a solid enough team where anyone (Foles, Keenum, Bortles) can take Buffalo to a championship game than mortgaging the future on a player this year. Ironically, I was a huge Pat Mahomes fan last year and was extremely disappointed when Buffalo traded out of that pick. I think that will come back to bite us. But the Bills organization over the time you are referencing has not operated under the same regime, or been the same autonomous unit. How many coaches and GMs have they gone through? They've even changed ownership. I look at the Beane/McD era as a new chapter and will judge them based on that. But as someone who feels like Lamar Jackson could be the best player in this draft, I'm content to stay at 12 and take him there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted March 18, 2018 Share Posted March 18, 2018 So, the Bills "clearly had a QB identified LAST YEAR" and started wheeling and dealing in order to get him as early as the 2017 draft? Is that the manure you're trying to shovel? Do you also believe in the Easter Bunny, Bigfoot, and Zombies? The fact is that from the time the Bills started collecting draft capital with the 2017 draft and today, the FO has been entirely restructured from the GM down to the scouts. Virtually all of the pro and collegiate player personnel evaluation staff has been replaced, except maybe the admin assistants and janitors. Why would ANY evaluations of any player made by former employees continue to guide the current administration when it's pretty clear that the current administration has far different requirements and standards? The Bills started collecting draft capital because they need it to build a winning team, not because they're fanboys of some over-hyped college player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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