OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 ......been seeing a ton about the drawbacks and failures of these "Air Raid" guys......at the same time, posters have mentioned that there are no real differences between IT and the "spread" or perhaps the old "run 'n shoot" in Warren Moon's day......experts weigh in and sort the differences out?.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) ......been seeing a ton about the drawbacks and failures of these "Air Raid" guys......at the same time, posters have mentioned that there are no real differences between IT and the "spread" or perhaps the old "run 'n shoot" in Warren Moon's day......experts weigh in and sort the differences out?.................. With respect to Mahomes, there is a great article on a website we are not allowed to link to. Author is Doug Farrar. He points out that Mahomes ran a much more complex offense than what scouts think of as traditional Air Raid where he had to know and call the oline protections, running back protections, go through multiple reads, and read defenses pre-snap and audible into other plays. Edited April 17, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) With respect to Mahomes, there is a great article on a website we are not allowed to link to. Author is Doug Farrar. He points out that Mahomes ran a much more complex offense than what scouts think of as traditional Air Raid where he had to know and call the oline protections, running back protections, go through multiple reads, and read defenses pre-snap and audible into other plays. ....but I still do not understand the glaring differences between the Iar Raid, Spread or Run 'n Shoot(think Warren Moon did ok).....isn't everything predicated on the shotgun?.....if so, sure there are nuances, tweaks and twists to the basic formation.....but why is the Air Raid the "bad boy" if my assertions are correct?....sorry, but don't get to see college ball.......... Edited April 17, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) ....but I still do understand the glaring differences between the Iar Raid, Spread or Run 'n Shoot.....isn't everything predicated on the shotgun?.....if so, sure there are nuances, tweaks and twists to the basic formation.....but why is the Air Raid the "bad boy" if my assertions are correct?....sorry, but don't get to see college ball.......... Air Raid in its purest form is an offense designed to get the ball out very fast. When it started it didn't require QB's with great physical tools. I think the issue is that you can run a WCO pro-style offense that is very simple and you can run a run first smash mouth offense that is very complex. For each prospect, you need to research how their college offense operated and what the issue would be moving on to the NFL. Air Raid will scare people because more than 15 years ago a few Texas Tech guys with bad physical tools got drafted and failed. That provides a discount for teams that want Mahomes. Edited April 18, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) Air Raid in it's purest form is an offense designed to get the ball out very fast. When it started it didn't require QB's with great physical tools. I think the issue is that you can run a WCO pro-style offense that is very simple and you can run a run first smash mouth offense that is very complex. For each prospect, you need to research how their college offense operated and what the issue would be moving on to the NFL. Air Raid will scare people because more than 15 years ago a few Texas Tech guys with bad physical tools got drafted and failed. That provides a discount for teams that want Mahomes. ...probably not conveying it properly, but it seems the Air Raid is still a spread type based on the initiating formation of shotgun...Mariota seems to be making the transition well......even going back to the successful days of Warren Moon and what was then called "Run 'n Shoot", the initiating formation was the shotgun.....I posted elsewhere, if I remember correclty, 60% of the 2016 snaps were taken in the shotgun formation which elevated to 67% of the playoff snaps taken in the same formation.....what the hell am I missing?....almost seems like a hangup on nomenclature.....of course they all have nuances and subtleties that make them a bit different, but isn't the premise the same??.......... Edited April 17, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 ...probably not conveying it properly, but it seems the Air Raid is still a spread type based on the initiating formation of shotgun...Mariota seems to be making the transition well......even going back to the successful days of Warren Moon and what was then called "Run 'n Shoot", the initiating formation was the shotgun.....I posted elsewhere, if I remember correclty, 60% of the 2016 snaps were taken in the shotgun formation which elevated to 67% of the playoff snaps taken in the same formation.....what the hell am I missing?....almost seems like a hangup on nomenclature.....of course they all have nuances and subtleties that make them a bit different, but isn't the premise the same??.......... Yes, you are correct. Air Raid is a form of spread offense where the QB is in shotgun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 Yes, you are correct. Air Raid is a form of spread offense where the QB is in shotgun. ....so then this Air Raid panic is a non-issue in your view, nothing more than semantics?.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmotionallyUnstable Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 Air Raid in it's purest form is an offense designed to get the ball out very fast. When it started it didn't require QB's with great physical tools. I think the issue is that you can run a WCO pro-style offense that is very simple and you can run a run first smash mouth offense that is very complex. For each prospect, you need to research how their college offense operated and what the issue would be moving on to the NFL. Air Raid will scare people because more than 15 years ago a few Texas Tech guys with bad physical tools got drafted and failed. That provides a discount for teams that want Mahomes. To me when someone says WCO and Air raid, I think totally different offensive schemes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffismagic Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) ....so then this Air Raid panic is a non-issue in your view, nothing more than semantics?.............. I think the traditional Air Raid can be a very simple college offense. With respect to Mahomes and Texas Tech I think people are not looking into what he actually did there. You can run Air Raid with NFL concepts. In fact, Mahomes' coach played with Brady and learned under Belichick. Texas Tech were running many NFL plays just as teams like the Patriots, Chiefs, and Broncos (Dennison) were running Air Raid plays last year on Sunday. One AFC scout said he would scout Air Raid the same way he would any other spread offense college QB. So some people get it but I do think some teams will hold it against him. Edited April 17, 2017 by jeffismagic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 To me when someone says WCO and Air raid, I think totally different offensive schemes ....they are...but why is WCO accepted and Air Raid feared if nothing more than a shotgun derivative?............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) ....but I still do not understand the glaring differences between the Iar Raid, Spread or Run 'n Shoot(think Warren Moon did ok).....isn't everything predicated on the shotgun?.....if so, sure there are nuances, tweaks and twists to the basic formation.....but why is the Air Raid the "bad boy" if my assertions are correct?....sorry, but don't get to see college ball.......... Run-N-Shoot teams had no fullbacks and no TE's on the roster. The QB's took a beating because teams would try and blitz them to force the ball out quickly and with no way of getting any extra protection, they got hit a lot. While the Run-N-Shoot in it's pure form died out after the Lions stopped running it, many of the concepts are still in use, just used in certain situations or formations, and not all the time as a base game plan. In some respects, the athletic, flexed out TE has replaced the 4th WR, with the addition of his ability to play inline and block when needed. The RB's were typically bigger backs as well, to try and make up a little bit of this and allow the back to stay in as a blocker at times. Lorenzo White with the Oilers was 225 lbs, for instance... The spread is similar to the Run-N-Shoot at times, but much more well-rounded from a personnel standpoint, as they have multiple TE's and can run heavy formations, which the Run-N-Shoot could not very effectively. Many times in 3rd and 1 or 2, the Run-N-Shoot teams were passing because they couldn't line up and get 1 or 2 yards, although they sometimes would run draws in these situations. In effect the Run-N-Shoot in its true form died because of its limitations of its personnel and what you could do with them. Edited April 17, 2017 by matter2003 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 17, 2017 Author Share Posted April 17, 2017 Run-N-Shoot teams had no fullbacks and no TE's on the roster. The QB's took a beating because teams would try and blitz them to force the ball out quickly and with no way of getting any extra protection, they got hit a lot. While the Run-N-Shoot in it's pure form died out after the Lions stopped running it, many of the concepts are still in use, just used in certain situations or formations, and not all the time as a base game plan. In some respects, the athletic, flexed out TE has replaced the 4th WR, with the addition of his ability to play inline and block when needed. The RB's were typically bigger backs as well, to try and make up a little bit of this and allow the back to stay in as a blocker at times. Lorenzo White with the Oilers was 225 lbs, for instance... The spread is similar to the Run-N-Shoot at times, but much more well-rounded from a personnel standpoint, as they have multiple TE's and can run heavy formations, which the Run-N-Shoot could not very effectively. Many times in 3rd and 1 or 2, the Run-N-Shoot teams were passing because they couldn't line up and get 1 or 2 yards, although they sometimes would run draws in these situations. In effect the Run-N-Shoot in its true form died because of its limitations of its personnel and what you could do with them. ...ONE helluva and precise analysis with my thanks friend.....so if I understand correctly, we're talking about the evolution of similar shotgun based philosophies over time as has the WCO gone through...If my understanding ins correct, why is the "Air Raid" branded as the ugly stepchild?.............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 A spread offense is referred to as such because it's object is too spread you out as much as possible pre snap. A lot of 3-4-5 wide sets. BUT spread team do not necessarily mean pass heavy. You can be a running spread team Air raid is an off shoot of the spread offense. But it typically features passing at a higher rate, over 70% passing,than most offenses. It is designed to get the ball out of the QBs hand instantly. The run n shoot was a offense designed around option passing routes and Their principles from a spread offense. In principle it's passing concepts are brilliant but you need a brilliant QB with a brilliant mind like Brady or Manning or Brees to pull it off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 17, 2017 Share Posted April 17, 2017 (edited) Run-N-Shoot teams had no fullbacks and no TE's on the roster. The QB's took a beating because teams would try and blitz them to force the ball out quickly and with no way of getting any extra protection, they got hit a lot. While the Run-N-Shoot in it's pure form died out after the Lions stopped running it, many of the concepts are still in use, just used in certain situations or formations, and not all the time as a base game plan. In some respects, the athletic, flexed out TE has replaced the 4th WR, with the addition of his ability to play inline and block when needed. The RB's were typically bigger backs as well, to try and make up a little bit of this and allow the back to stay in as a blocker at times. Lorenzo White with the Oilers was 225 lbs, for instance... The spread is similar to the Run-N-Shoot at times, but much more well-rounded from a personnel standpoint, as they have multiple TE's and can run heavy formations, which the Run-N-Shoot could not very effectively. Many times in 3rd and 1 or 2, the Run-N-Shoot teams were passing because they couldn't line up and get 1 or 2 yards, although they sometimes would run draws in these situations. In effect the Run-N-Shoot in its true form died because of its limitations of its personnel and what you could do with them. good stuff... A spread offense is referred to as such because it's object is too spread you out as much as possible pre snap. A lot of 3-4-5 wide sets. BUT spread team do not necessarily mean pass heavy. You can be a running spread team Air raid is an off shoot of the spread offense. But it typically features passing at a higher rate, over 70% passing,than most offenses. It is designed to get the ball out of the QBs hand instantly. The run n shoot was a offense designed around option passing routes and Their principles from a spread offense. In principle it's passing concepts are brilliant but you need a brilliant QB with a brilliant mind like Brady or Manning or Brees to pull it off of those QB prospects in the upcoming draft, which do you see having a brilliant mind? Edited April 17, 2017 by DaBillsFanSince1973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 good stuff... of those QB prospects in the upcoming draft, which do you see having a brilliant mind? Two QBs who seem to have very high IQs while on the football field are Mitch Trubisky and Nathan Peterman Peterman I think is a great backup prospect who can flourish into something more perhaps give the time And Trubisky just has a good feel in the pocket and spreads the ball around with ease sometimes I worry about all of them this year but those 2 have good football IQ and play the QB position pretty well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted April 18, 2017 Author Share Posted April 18, 2017 good stuff... of those QB prospects in the upcoming draft, which do you see having a brilliant mind? ....where the hell have you been Big Dawg?....I was on a limb potentially asking stupid questions as I'm known for....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 A spread offense is referred to as such because it's object is too spread you out as much as possible pre snap. A lot of 3-4-5 wide sets. BUT spread team do not necessarily mean pass heavy. You can be a running spread team Air raid is an off shoot of the spread offense. But it typically features passing at a higher rate, over 70% passing,than most offenses. It is designed to get the ball out of the QBs hand instantly. The run n shoot was a offense designed around option passing routes and Their principles from a spread offense. In principle it's passing concepts are brilliant but you need a brilliant QB with a brilliant mind like Brady or Manning or Brees to pull it off ty Run-N-Shoot teams had no fullbacks and no TE's on the roster. The QB's took a beating because teams would try and blitz them to force the ball out quickly and with no way of getting any extra protection, they got hit a lot. While the Run-N-Shoot in it's pure form died out after the Lions stopped running it, many of the concepts are still in use, just used in certain situations or formations, and not all the time as a base game plan. In some respects, the athletic, flexed out TE has replaced the 4th WR, with the addition of his ability to play inline and block when needed. The RB's were typically bigger backs as well, to try and make up a little bit of this and allow the back to stay in as a blocker at times. Lorenzo White with the Oilers was 225 lbs, for instance... The spread is similar to the Run-N-Shoot at times, but much more well-rounded from a personnel standpoint, as they have multiple TE's and can run heavy formations, which the Run-N-Shoot could not very effectively. Many times in 3rd and 1 or 2, the Run-N-Shoot teams were passing because they couldn't line up and get 1 or 2 yards, although they sometimes would run draws in these situations. In effect the Run-N-Shoot in its true form died because of its limitations of its personnel and what you could do with them. ty To me when someone says WCO and Air raid, I think totally different offensive schemes ; ) ....where the hell have you been Big Dawg?....I was on a limb potentially asking stupid questions as I'm known for....... Excellent questions, and quite well handled within the thread. Fine topic of discussion indeed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBillsFanSince1973 Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 (edited) ....where the hell have you been Big Dawg?....I was on a limb potentially asking stupid questions as I'm known for....... right here learning a thing or two myself along with you OldTime... stupid, no, not a good word to use there. you don't ask, you'll never know. some knowledgeable folks around these parts. ask, gain knowledge, I can dig that... Two QBs who seem to have very high IQs while on the football field are Mitch Trubisky and Nathan Peterman Peterman I think is a great backup prospect who can flourish into something more perhaps give the time And Trubisky just has a good feel in the pocket and spreads the ball around with ease sometimes I worry about all of them this year but those 2 have good football IQ and play the QB position pretty well thank you for that input. could be one of those guys with the natural "it" factor? so do you think his limited playing time/experience can be overlooked? seems I read today the bears are looking hard at him. Edited April 18, 2017 by DaBillsFanSince1973 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo716 Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 right here learning a thing or two myself along with you OldTime... stupid, no, not a good word to use there. you don't ask, you'll never know. some knowledgeable folks around these parts. ask, gain knowledge, I can dig that... thank you for that input. could be one of those guys with the natural "it" factor? so do you think his limited playing time/experience can be overlooked? seems I read today the bears are looking hard at him. His natural talent is undeniable. Personally, I would have liked to see him stay another year and develop, but when he has a chance to go top 10 it's tough to turn that down I hope he doesn't go to the Jets. I guess that means deep down I think he has some real talent He was the #1 dual threat recruit coming out of HS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted April 18, 2017 Share Posted April 18, 2017 With respect to Mahomes, there is a great article on a website we are not allowed to link to. Author is Doug Farrar. He points out that Mahomes ran a much more complex offense than what scouts think of as traditional Air Raid where he had to know and call the oline protections, running back protections, go through multiple reads, and read defenses pre-snap and audible into other plays. Which changes the way I view him now. He's above the standard the system would generate. Mahomes does in fact read the whole field which is darn impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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