d_wag Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 just for those of you who called me out by saying i was baseless in my arguement that TD's style with impending free agents is to lowball them and that the players are just being greedy, here is fact that supports my position....... "The Bills offered an under-market contract to Williams last summer (three years, $11 million, $4 million bonus)." the key number there is bonus money.......4M is pathetic, and shows that the 2007 salary in that deal is likely very high and TD was just looking to dump him after two more years..........if the bonus money was 6 or 7 million big pat likely would have jumped all over that deal, but with no assurance of seeing the last year in the contract, he was smart for rejecting it........ after that offer, TD and big pat's agent never talked again, right up to today, when another offer has not been made by the bills........ you guys can keep painting big pat "greedy" and "money hungry", but the fact remains TD lowballed him with an offer and then froze him out........is that how you treat a player you want to return to your team and retire with your uniform on? i don't think so........it is disrespectful and just drives a player away from the team......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 just for those of you who called me out by saying i was baseless in my arguement that TD's style with impending free agents is to lowball them and that the players are just being greedy, here is fact that supports my position....... "The Bills offered an under-market contract to Williams last summer (three years, $11 million, $4 million bonus)." the key number there is bonus money.......4M is pathetic, and shows that the 2007 salary in that deal is likely very high and TD was just looking to dump him after two more years..........if the bonus money was 6 or 7 million big pat likely would have jumped all over that deal, but with no assurance of seeing the last year in the contract, he was smart for rejecting it........ after that offer, TD and big pat's agent never talked again, right up to today, when another offer has not been made by the bills........ you guys can keep painting big pat "greedy" and "money hungry", but the fact remains TD lowballed him with an offer and then froze him out........is that how you treat a player you want to return to your team and retire with your uniform on? i don't think so........it is disrespectful and just drives a player away from the team......... 256527[/snapback] And an old DT is probably only worth that. Granted he has been good, but there are several DT's better then him in the league. With the tag number only being about 5.2 million, if I remember correct, for a DT. He is not even top 5 in the league so a 4 million or so number is about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 just for those of you who called me out by saying i was baseless in my arguement that TD's style with impending free agents is to lowball them and that the players are just being greedy, here is fact that supports my position....... "The Bills offered an under-market contract to Williams last summer (three years, $11 million, $4 million bonus)." What did Sam Adams get just the year prior to that one? Salaries didn't change much, and Pat Williams has never made the Pro Bowl, much less coming-off one like Sam did (last year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 What did Sam Adams get just the year prior to that one? Salaries didn't change much, and Pat Williams has never made the Pro Bowl, much less coming-off one like Sam did (last year). 256535[/snapback] Sam's contract was I believe a total of 9 million for 3 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachChuckDickerson Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 He is old for a DT. TD knows this. You want to become the Dolphins who overpay for aging talent and are now in cap hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Low balling is all the frame of mind. It does not matter what a player is worth in the open market. It matters what the player is worth to THE BILLS. This includes the fact that we have two young DT's behind Williams. Obviously not of the same talent level, but it all factors in. It takes into account his age. It factors in what kind of defense we are going to be running. It is also a matter of deciding if they want to keep Williams and possibly have to cut another player, this year or maybe next year, because his cap hit is too high. They could offer him a huge contract that he would never see the end of, but all that is going to do is leave us with more dead cap space later. Sure, we could offer a 7mil SB instead of 4, but in two years we can't sign a pretty decent player because we are 3mil short. You seem to have a very narrow and simple view of what it takes to keep a team running. It is not about the contract one player is going to get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 What was Angelo Wright's counter offer to TD? Was there one? There is a danger in making the TD "low ball" assumption here with only one side of the story. There are just as many examples of TD paying for people (Moulds, Schobel)... Remember Wright was the same agent who wanted $5 Million a year for Adams and ended up with $2.75 to 3 Million...Adams signed a four year deal by the way--here are his salary numbers according to the nflpa website...These I don't think include amoritized bonus. 2003 750000.00 2004 2000000.00 2005 2000000.00 2006 2000000.00 If we get the Travis Henry deal done with the Cardinals for Shelton....Pat will sign... something like 4 years, $15 million, $6 million in bonus money....salaries of $1 million, $1 million, $2.5 million and $4.5 million.. he is gone after 07... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Sam's contract was I believe a total of 9 million for 3 years. Yeah, and I think the SB was even less than the $4M TD offered Pat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VABills Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 What was Angelo Wright's counter offer to TD? Was there one? There is a danger in making the TD "low ball" assumption here with only one side of the story. There are just as many examples of TD paying for people (Moulds, Schobel)... Remember Wright was the same agent who wanted $5 Million a year for Adams and ended up with $2.75 to 3 Million...Adams signed a four year deal by the way--here are his salary numbers according to the nflpa website...These I don't think include amoritized bonus. 2003 750000.00 2004 2000000.00 2005 2000000.00 2006 2000000.00 If we get the Travis Henry deal done with the Cardinals for Shelton....Pat will sign... something like 4 years, $15 million, $6 million in bonus money....salaries of $1 million, $1 million, $2.5 million and $4.5 million.. he is gone after 07... 256548[/snapback] Was Sams contract 4 year for 9 million total? That means he only got a signing bonus of 2.25 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBuffaloDisease Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Was Sams contract 4 year for 9 million total? That means he only got a signing bonus of 2.25 million. I checked clumpy's salary cap page and Sam has am amortized bonus of $375K, which works out to $1.5M total. He had an additional $250K bonus which I assume was for the PB, and I'm sure he's had roster bonuses. Why can't Pat accept a deal like that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Was Sams contract 4 year for 9 million total? That means he only got a signing bonus of 2.25 million. 256560[/snapback] I think you are about right VA. I just checked Clumpy's cap page--he has Sam for $375K in amortized bonus which would be a $1.5 million signing bonus for a 4 year contract $250K in incentive bonus which I assume is playing time/probowl, etc. That would be $625 K in bonuses--if that was annual it would be $2.5 million total... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OGTEleven Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Low balling is all the frame of mind. It does not matter what a player is worth in the open market. It matters what the player is worth to THE BILLS. This includes the fact that we have two young DT's behind Williams. Obviously not of the same talent level, but it all factors in. It takes into account his age. It factors in what kind of defense we are going to be running. It is also a matter of deciding if they want to keep Williams and possibly have to cut another player, this year or maybe next year, because his cap hit is too high. They could offer him a huge contract that he would never see the end of, but all that is going to do is leave us with more dead cap space later. Sure, we could offer a 7mil SB instead of 4, but in two years we can't sign a pretty decent player because we are 3mil short. You seem to have a very narrow and simple view of what it takes to keep a team running. It is not about the contract one player is going to get. 256546[/snapback] I agree with this for the most part, but at some point a team has to roll the dice to get to the next level. I hope/expect that TD will do something to make sure the DL is set (with PW I hope). He runs the risk of having an otherwise solid team with one or two huge holes. These holes would prevent the Bills from achieving their goal. If it was indeed true that PW was willing to take a hometown discount and that TD ignored him, that would be a mistake IMO. We don't know the real dialogue. If TD is willing to open up a big hole on an important part of the team, to possibly save a cap hit three years down the line, then the Bills will always be decent and never win it all. I hope this is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark VI Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 We don't know the real dialogue. Ding,ding,ding. We have a winner. The Bills would be silly to offer Williams big $$, prior to tomorrow. They might find out later they were bidding against themselves and burned up some needed Cap space. All the same, don't dismiss the notion that Williams does wish to test Free Agency and score the big signing bonus to go with a good contract. He's 33 and this is probably going to be his last good opportunity. If say Chicago offers him a solid 4 year deal without some insane signing bonus, TD may say " That's not bad, I could match that " and he'll sign back with us. Sometimes it's wise to not panic and let the Market play itself out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 We don't know the real dialogue. 256571[/snapback] Sure we do.....d_waq has been telling us for days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34-78-83 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 What was Angelo Wright's counter offer to TD? Was there one? There is a danger in making the TD "low ball" assumption here with only one side of the story. There are just as many examples of TD paying for people (Moulds, Schobel)... Remember Wright was the same agent who wanted $5 Million a year for Adams and ended up with $2.75 to 3 Million...Adams signed a four year deal by the way--here are his salary numbers according to the nflpa website...These I don't think include amoritized bonus. 2003 750000.00 2004 2000000.00 2005 2000000.00 2006 2000000.00 If we get the Travis Henry deal done with the Cardinals for Shelton....Pat will sign... something like 4 years, $15 million, $6 million in bonus money....salaries of $1 million, $1 million, $2.5 million and $4.5 million.. he is gone after 07... 256548[/snapback] Very good point here. Of course the offer is going to start out low. And in all honesty, that's really not too shabby of an offer that was made to PW. It also shows patience and financial responsibility by TD. It's not quite the New England hardball approach but it shows some firmness. Players that come here most times get paid what they're worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 I still say you pay for performance, and though he was OK, I don't think PW played well enough in 2003 to merit a big raise. When you also factor in his age, I think TD did the right thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
todd Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Yeah, donahoe sure does suck! just for those of you who called me out by saying i was baseless in my arguement that TD's style with impending free agents is to lowball them and that the players are just being greedy, here is fact that supports my position....... "The Bills offered an under-market contract to Williams last summer (three years, $11 million, $4 million bonus)." the key number there is bonus money.......4M is pathetic, and shows that the 2007 salary in that deal is likely very high and TD was just looking to dump him after two more years..........if the bonus money was 6 or 7 million big pat likely would have jumped all over that deal, but with no assurance of seeing the last year in the contract, he was smart for rejecting it........ after that offer, TD and big pat's agent never talked again, right up to today, when another offer has not been made by the bills........ you guys can keep painting big pat "greedy" and "money hungry", but the fact remains TD lowballed him with an offer and then froze him out........is that how you treat a player you want to return to your team and retire with your uniform on? i don't think so........it is disrespectful and just drives a player away from the team......... 256527[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 they all make way to much money . the day is coming when they price themselves out of the game . look at the NHL 256596[/snapback] Ahh, the beauty of a cap linked to revenue!!!! Also question for you all. In your mind , who is better Fred Smoot or Nate. In Wilbons column today, said Smoot is looking for around $16M bonus, Skins offering $10M and his agent is basically laughing. So, for all those saying get Nate done now, and I am one, I think this almost precludes getting both JJ and PW done. I mean with 8M cap room, how can we get all three done and still draft? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 Ahh, the beauty of a cap linked to revenue!!!! Also question for you all. In your mind , who is better Fred Smoot or Nate. In Wilbons column today, said Smoot is looking for around $16M bonus, Skins offering $10M and his agent is basically laughing. So, for all those saying get Nate done now, and I am one, I think this almost precludes getting both JJ and PW done. I mean with 8M cap room, how can we get all three done and still draft? 256693[/snapback] Fred Smoot needs to lay off the crack! Nate is clearly a superior player to Smoot......this is kinda scary if Snyder opens the vault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fan in San Diego Posted March 1, 2005 Share Posted March 1, 2005 There is a thing called counter offer and negotiations. we dont see all of the moves behind the scene's. I'm sure TD will get a deal done that makes sense for the Bills. I sure wish someone would disrespect me with a 4 million dollar signing bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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