thebandit27 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 At least he thinks he's top 10 . He sure ain't no Josh Norman or richard sherman !! Gilmore ain't worth that much cash ... Especially with the talent on defense in the draft this year he can & should be replaced !! Actually, his numbers from this season were nearly identical to both Sherman's and Norman's: Josh Norman, Washington Redskins: allowed 44 catches on 88 targets for 589 yards, four TDs, three INTs, 72.6 passer rating against, 52 solo tackles Richard Sherman, Seattle Seahawks: allowed 44 catches on 85 targets for 624 yards, two TDs, four INTs, 64.0 passer rating against, 38 solo tackles Stephon Gilmore, Buffalo Bills: allowed 40 catches on 69 targets for 627 yards, two TDs, five INTs, 67.7 passer rating against, 42 solo tackles Bandit, do you think that Gilmore is a better cb than Jenkins? I am not trying to prove any point at all, I just am interested in your opinion. I don't pay as much attention to secondary play as I do to both lines so for what little it's worth, and without bothering to check stats, I think that Jenkins is clearly superior. Up until this year I'd have given you an unequivocal yes, but Jenkins had a superb year for the Giants--he and Xavier Rhodes were the two best corners in football IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Up until this year I'd have given you an unequivocal yes, but Jenkins had a superb year for the Giants--he and Xavier Rhodes were the two best corners in football IMOAs I vaguely remember, Jenkins had off field issues in college, and some injuries in the NFL. My girlfriend is a Giant Fan so I saw him in a few games. I thought he was clearly superior to Gilmore. Landon Collins was of course great as well, but I already knew this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 i think the Panthers situation with Norman was unique. They didn't exactly let him walk in FA. They very much wanted to re-sign him and ended up tagging him. He was in the process of switching agents and the Panthers pulled the tag out of frustration with the former agent. I believe there was some giant misunderstanding or mishandling of the situation from what I recall. they never thought he wasn't someone they needed or didn't want to pay. My point was more the zone scheme run by McD fell apart very quickly when Norman was swapped out with corners like the ones people are suggesting would replace Gillmore. I tend to be less "QB is everything" than other people here, otherwise Rivers and Brees wouldn't have playoff droughts, if it comes down to a Gillmore vs Tyrod situation, I'm taking Gillmore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 My point was more the zone scheme run by McD fell apart very quickly when Norman was swapped out with corners like the ones people are suggesting would replace Gillmore. I tend to be less "QB is everything" than other people here, otherwise Rivers and Brees wouldn't have playoff droughts, if it comes down to a Gillmore vs Tyrod situation, I'm taking Gillmore. I respect your well presented opinion but I do disagree. I think that if this Bills team had Revis and Mel Blount in their primes, they would fail to make the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 What corner can tackle? If you need your corners to tackle 235 lbs backs, the rest of the team has already failed. That line of thinking worked great for the Panthers last year.... totally different corners, Norman and Gilmore...Norman excelled in McDermotts scheme, Gilmore has never even whiffed a zone scheme like that. Cover corners get paid, Zone corners can be found cheap/created...no thanks to 14 mill a year. If we were staying in man coverage then hell yea Gilmore is worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 totally different corners, Norman and Gilmore...Norman excelled in McDermotts scheme, Gilmore has never even whiffed a zone scheme like that. Cover corners get paid, Zone corners can be found cheap/created...no thanks to 14 mill a year. If we were staying in man coverage then hell yea Gilmore is worth it. I don't see what skills Gillmore lacks that would prevent him from playing well in the scheme. I absolutely do not believe you can just roll any corners into a zone scheme and get away with it. The Carolina defensive numbers from 2015 to 2016 certainly don't suggest that's the case. If we let Gillmore walk, we'll need to replace him with a highly drafted corner IMO and our draft resources are spread pretty thin anyway. We are already pretty much on board with taking a QB relatively early plus our WRs, safeties and RT also need some attention through FA or the draft. If we want to take some project corners later and potentially line up a replacement for Gillmore in the near future, I'm fine with that, but I think our defense would suffer badly if our corner group was Darby / Robey / Seymour / street FA / late draft pick, regardless of scheme. I respect your well presented opinion but I do disagree. I think that if this Bills team had Revis and Mel Blount in their primes, they would fail to make the playoffs. My point is simply to say the majority of us already don't think Tyrod is the guy to lead us to the promised land. If we are drafting a QB early anyway, why not keep the guy we know is good and have a competition with Cardale / Rookie QB / cheaper vet QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) I don't see what skills Gillmore lacks that would prevent him from playing well in the scheme. I absolutely do not believe you can just roll any corners into a zone scheme and get away with it. The Carolina defensive numbers from 2015 to 2016 certainly don't suggest that's the case. If we let Gillmore walk, we'll need to replace him with a highly drafted corner IMO and our draft resources are spread pretty thin anyway. We are already pretty much on board with taking a QB relatively early plus our WRs, safeties and RT also need some attention through FA or the draft. If we want to take some project corners later and potentially line up a replacement for Gillmore in the near future, I'm fine with that, but I think our defense would suffer badly if our corner group was Darby / Robey / Seymour / street FA / late draft pick, regardless of scheme. My point is simply to say the majority of us already don't think Tyrod is the guy to lead us to the promised land. If we are drafting a QB early anyway, why not keep the guy we know is good and have a competition with Cardale / Rookie QB / cheaper vet QB? Running zone schemes allows you to have average corners because they are only asked to cover areas instead of staying with a man. Gilmore does very well in man coverage, but he wont be asked to do that under McDermotts scheme...this is why historically, Jim Johnson and then McDermott have got great production from otherwise average DBs. Im not saying we need to replace Gilmore with someone as good, or someone worse, I'm saying we can get away with replacing him with someone DIFFERENT because scheme will allow it. I am sure Gilmore COULD succeed in McDermotts scheme, but we don't have a need to pay him to do so when we can get someone else to do it. Is Richard Sherman being paid to be a cover 2 CB? Is Patrick Peterson a cover 2 CB? There's no need to pay top dollar to a CB if your running a zone In an ideal world I would love to have Gilmore, regardless of system. This isnt an ideal world and if we want to upgrade the many needs we have, we could be better served spending that 14 million next year on other guys...like in the areas you suggest we need to spend resources on. If letting Gilmore go means we get a CB (cheaper guy who can be plugged into zone coverage), RT help, safety help or WR help...im in with that plan. Carolina's D had a lot more problems than just letting Norman walk. I also don't know why you state "we are already pretty much on board with taking a QB high" - that might end up being the case but as of now, I don't see where you are drawing that conclusion from. As of now we have TT as the QB which wouldn't necessarily mean we have to draft a QB high. Edited February 9, 2017 by PaattMaann Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Wagon Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Running zone schemes allows you to have average corners because they are only asked to cover areas instead of staying with a man. Gilmore does very well in man coverage, but he wont be asked to do that under McDermotts scheme...this is why historically, Jim Johnson and then McDermott have got great production from otherwise average DBs. Im not saying we need to replace Gilmore with someone as good, or someone worse, I'm saying we can get away with replacing him with someone DIFFERENT because scheme will allow it. I am sure Gilmore COULD succeed in McDermotts scheme, but we don't have a need to pay him to do so when we can get someone else to do it. Is Richard Sherman being paid to be a cover 2 CB? Is Patrick Peterson a cover 2 CB? There's no need to pay top dollar to a CB if your running a zone In an ideal world I would love to have Gilmore, regardless of system. This isnt an ideal world and if we want to upgrade the many needs we have, we could be better served spending that 14 million next year on other guys...like in the areas you suggest we need to spend resources on. If letting Gilmore go means we get a CB (cheaper guy who can be plugged into zone coverage), RT help, safety help or WR help...im in with that plan. Carolina's D had a lot more problems than just letting Norman walk. I also don't know why you state "we are already pretty much on board with taking a QB high" - that might end up being the case but as of now, I don't see where you are drawing that conclusion from. As of now we have TT as the QB which wouldn't necessarily mean we have to draft a QB high. Sherman is absolutely a zone corner. The Seahawks run Cover 3 a majority of the time, which is a big reason their defense fell apart when Earl Thomas got hurt as they didn't have him playing center field. Agree to disagree, but I think Gillmore to a replacement level corner is a bigger drop than the difference of a $7 mil FA RT (basically Michael Oher / King Dunlop) and $7 mil WR (basically Sanu) to replacement level. In regards to Tyrod, I'm simply reading tea leaves, the way the front office treated him at the end of the year, the conflicting stories regarding the team's contact with him, etc. They certain don't seem to be acting like they know he's the starter for next year. I might be wrong (and it wouldn't be the first time) but it seems they are acting interested in him just enough to get a team to trade for him but Whaley has been eyeing QBs in the draft for several years now and there seems to be a commitment to a longer term build than we've operated with the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaattMaann Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Sherman is absolutely a zone corner. The Seahawks run Cover 3 a majority of the time, which is a big reason their defense fell apart when Earl Thomas got hurt as they didn't have him playing center field. Agree to disagree, but I think Gillmore to a replacement level corner is a bigger drop than the difference of a $7 mil FA RT (basically Michael Oher / King Dunlop) and $7 mil WR (basically Sanu) to replacement level. In regards to Tyrod, I'm simply reading tea leaves, the way the front office treated him at the end of the year, the conflicting stories regarding the team's contact with him, etc. They certain don't seem to be acting like they know he's the starter for next year. I might be wrong (and it wouldn't be the first time) but it seems they are acting interested in him just enough to get a team to trade for him but Whaley has been eyeing QBs in the draft for several years now and there seems to be a commitment to a longer term build than we've operated with the last few years. fair enough...we will have to disagree about Gilmore's worth to this defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanMike Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 That Blue Helmet in the avi is dope!!! The cant tackle **** pisses me off. Someone needs to teach Gilmore the fundamentals again. He doesnt tackle because he doesnt know how to tackle properly without getting injured. Thats how he got injured in 2015 season. Thanks man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I think that the rumor was that they offered an AAV of $10.5M in August. They can say, "we made a significantly larger offer than what was previously on the table. That offer is in line with the top paid CBs in the league." The problem is there is a tier with Norman, Revis and a couple of others that is substantially higher than the next group (the Janoris Jenkins, Trumaine Johnson group). The Bills will shoot for that tier and he will shoot for the tier above. JMO Great insight. I would put Gillmore in the Jenkins, Johnson group. But clearly if I'm his agent I'm trying for the Revis group. I would not sign him for that money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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