IUBillsFan Posted February 14, 2005 Share Posted February 14, 2005 And we all know that under the "Bush Economy" that WNY in the 2000's isn't doing any better. 239002[/snapback] Well what would you expect? If a city can't do anything during one of the greatest economic growth cycle in history when will they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverNRed Posted February 15, 2005 Share Posted February 15, 2005 Take a look at Table 6.1 on the URL below and tell me unionization doesn't affect job growth: http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/CED/publications/milwecon/chap6.html Buffalo had the highest level of unionization (as a percent of labor force) among the 14 major U.S. metro areas studied in 1966, 1991 and 1996. In 2004, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, among these same 14 metro areas, only Detroit had a larger percentage loss in private sector jobs (-1.5%) than Buffalo (-0.7%). 238803[/snapback] Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N.Y. Orangeman Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Take a look at Table 6.1 on the URL below and tell me unionization doesn't affect job growth: http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/CED/publications/milwecon/chap6.html Buffalo had the highest level of unionization (as a percent of labor force) among the 14 major U.S. metro areas studied in 1966, 1991 and 1996. In 2004, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, among these same 14 metro areas, only Detroit had a larger percentage loss in private sector jobs (-1.5%) than Buffalo (-0.7%). 238803[/snapback] Good post. It is nice to see someone injecting reason into this thread.. I looked at the source for the table and while I believe it could be true, I'm not familiar with it: Hirsch, Barry T., and David A. MacPherson, Union Membership and Earnings Data Book, 1997 Edition Assuming this is true, which I am willing to do, I am surprised. That being said, I still do not believe you can attribute all Buffalo's problems to the union culture (not you personally, that is). I believe that the tax structure of WNY is the biggest culprit, among many, for WNY's current state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 Thanks for completely missing the point in a vain attempt to turn this into some kind of partisan argument. It has little to do with who's President and much to do with the time warp the area is stuck in and the willingness to continue accepting the same mediocrity/status quo. 239100[/snapback] I didn't miss the point - it isn't the bush economy and it wasn't the clinton economy. I was just suprised that you added "clinton economy" when there was no need for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 16, 2005 Share Posted February 16, 2005 That being said, I still do not believe you can attribute all Buffalo's problems to the union culture (not you personally, that is). I believe that the tax structure of WNY is the biggest culprit, among many, for WNY's current state. 240672[/snapback] The 2 are not mutually exclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich in Ohio Posted February 17, 2005 Share Posted February 17, 2005 I like Walmart, the greeters are always friendly, and I get a good feeling there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 This post makes me realize you just don't get it. You obviously want things handed to you because you make a living with your hands. The white collars brain power would be useless without the guy to put the car together? Ok. Then we'll find another guy who can do it. A guy that doesn't need a union, and will work for a FAIR wage. And you say where would the white collar guy be without the blue collar guy? Well, where would these guys who decided college wasn't for them (and who wouldn't when you can make $20 an hour putting a bolt on a piece of metal) without the WHITE COLLARS TO OFFER THEM A JOB? edit: I realize this was a very generalized statement and I didn't mean it like that. It shouldn't say "who decided not to go to college". It should say "who decided he didn't want to work to get to where he really wants to be". Welcome to the 21st century. Unions are a joke. 235682[/snapback] Well, I have to disagree. I spent ten years working for a well known communications company that was and is vehemently non union. I started at an entry level white collar job and moved up to middle management. I left that company to take a UNION civil service job that required no college education. While it is considered blue collar it definitely involves no physical labor. The benefits are much better- 3times the sick days, double the holidays, and 65% more pay. Now, who is smarter? The white collar college educated me or the blue collar highly paid me? Unions are no joke. That is merely corporate propaganda to ensure that no one is paid what they are worth, and those at the top are paid vastly more than they are worth. White collars are very replaceable- every bit as much as blue collars. The only unreplaceable is the company owner. Period. And lets get in the real world and admit that not every person at the top worked his A$$ off to get there. Luck has a lot to do with success in life. What family you're born into, where you live etc. And yes, I'm from a white suburban family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Well, I have to disagree. I spent ten years working for a well known communications company that was and is vehemently non union. I started at an entry level white collar job and moved up to middle management. I left that company to take a UNION civil service job that required no college education. While it is considered blue collar it definitely involves no physical labor. The benefits are much better- 3times the sick days, double the holidays, and 65% more pay. Now, who is smarter? The white collar college educated me or the blue collar highly paid me? Unions are no joke. That is merely corporate propaganda to ensure that no one is paid what they are worth, and those at the top are paid vastly more than they are worth. White collars are very replaceable- every bit as much as blue collars. The only unreplaceable is the company owner. Period. And lets get in the real world and admit that not every person at the top worked his A$$ off to get there. Luck has a lot to do with success in life. What family you're born into, where you live etc. And yes, I'm from a white suburban family. 246367[/snapback] Great post. The brainwashed anti-labor workers might not see it, but unions, although not perfect, are a vital protection to many workers who would be otherwize abused. I give you my solemn word that in NYC, decorated Police Officers would be fired for giving a summons to the relative of a City Councilman were it not for the PBA. Believe this as you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Great post. The brainwashed anti-labor workers might not see it, but unions, although not perfect, are a vital protection to many workers who would be otherwize abused. I give you my solemn word that in NYC, decorated Police Officers would be fired for giving a summons to the relative of a City Councilman were it not for the PBA. Believe this as you will. 246374[/snapback] And I'm sure no crappy police officers were retained because of the PBA... There's little difference between the "brainwashed" anti-labor folks and the "brainwashed" pro-labor folks. You're either trumpeting the good or the bad while ignoring the other side of the argument. It's also no surprise that unions have the majority of their success in the government realm. Perhaps 2 negatives truly do make a positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 >>>>>And I'm sure no crappy police officers were retained because of the PBA...<<<<< AD, the above begs the question.....WHO should make the determination of who is or is not a "good" police officer? Who is qualified to do so...me, who may be partial? Or you, who saw a TV show? If there was no labor union to protect the rights of police officers, politicians alone would make this determination. Are you suggesting that this would be a fair system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 >>>>>And I'm sure no crappy police officers were retained because of the PBA...<<<<< AD, the above begs the question.....WHO should make the determination of who is or is not a "good" police officer? Who is qualified to do so...me, who may be partial? Or you, who saw a TV show? Maybe Abner Louima would be a good judge. He's got experience. You wanna throw barbs, I can do it all day long. I'd be at least as fair a judge as you would, regardless of your time on the police force. I've had similiar experience in the military after all and understand operations. If you don't think I could separate some politician being a douche bag from reality... Civilian oversight is a necessity, for obvious reasons. If there was no labor union to protect the rights of police officers, politicians alone would make this determination. Are you suggesting that this would be a fair system? 246585[/snapback] Once again, you're dealing in a government realm. Two large and adversariel entities, each with their own agenda. It doesn't surprise me that the Union spawned in response. It also doesn't mean the union is not fatally flawed. Limiting the size and scope of government would go a long way toward not needing a union. Maybe then we could have officers stopping actual crime, instead of white gloving ashtrays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Maybe Abner Louima would be a good judge. He's got experience. You wanna throw barbs, I can do it all day long. I'd be at least as fair a judge as you would, regardless of your time on the police force. I've had similiar experience in the military after all and understand operations. If you don't think I could separate some politician being a douche bag from reality... Civilian oversight is a necessity, for obvious reasons. Once again, you're dealing in a government realm. Two large and adversariel entities, each with their own agenda. It doesn't surprise me that the Union spawned in response. It also doesn't mean the union is not fatally flawed. Limiting the size and scope of government would go a long way toward not needing a union. Maybe then we could have officers stopping actual crime, instead of white gloving ashtrays. 246594[/snapback] Oh my God, AD...I was NOT throwing barbs. I need to establish this! We go back how long? If my post appeared to be doing so, I am sorry. Justin Volpe, the perpetrator of the crime against Louima, is serving 30 YEARS in prison. I feel ZERO pity for him. He was a steroid head, perverted little Napoleanic scumbag. That was NOT police brutality. It was a sex crime! This little prick set back the cause of NYC police officers to an immeasureable degree, both with the community at large, and at contract time. That said, please believe that I have arrested persons that, as horrid as his crime was, did far worse, sometimes even to family members, and received less than half of that sentence. I never said that unions were/are perfect. What I do swear is that NYC police officers could not survive without a labor union. Can you see my point at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 Oh my God, AD...I was NOT throwing barbs. I need to establish this! We go back how long? If my post appeared to be doing so, I am sorry. Justin Volpe, the perpetrator of the crime against Louima, is serving 30 YEARS in prison. I feel ZERO pity for him. He was a steroid head, perverted little Napoleanic scumbag. That was NOT police brutality. It was a sex crime! This little prick set back the cause of NYC police officers to an immeasureable degree, both with the community at large, and at contract time. That said, please believe that I have arrested persons that, as horrid as his crime was, did far worse, sometimes even to family members, and received less than half of that sentence. I never said that unions were/are perfect. What I do swear is that NYC police officers could not survive without a labor union. Can you see my point at all? 246642[/snapback] Sure I can and I understand why the NYPD Officers felt the need to unionize. When your boss is a politician, it's born out of necessity because they govern on the emotion of the populace - who are rarely willing to wait for the facts nor put themselves in the shoes of the people charged with protecting them. I still have a problem with the "thin blue line" covering for scumbag cops who abuse their authority. I'm not talking about smacking around an obviously guilty perp who needs to be locked up, either. As for Volpe being a "sex crime", it doesn't look that way from appearance. It seems to fit the standard abuse of power of many of these situations. Any idea what Volpe's previous record was? I don't have a problem with a cop doing extra time, to be perfectly honest. Not twice as much, but I'm not involved in the justice system so I can't say whether that's normal or politically motivated. What's your take on how the PBA has stood up for Charles Schwarz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 >>>>>Not twice as much, but I'm not involved in the justice system so I can't say whether that's normal or politically motivated<<<<< Care to guess? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 20, 2005 Share Posted February 20, 2005 >>>>As for Volpe being a "sex crime", it doesn't look that way from appearance. It seems to fit the standard abuse of power of many of these situations.<<<<< AD, you are wrong. Please, look at it like this: 1) Have you ever met someone whose ass you would like to beat in? I have! 2) Have you ever met a guy who you wanted to shove a plunger up his ass? I have not. See what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted February 21, 2005 Share Posted February 21, 2005 >>>>What's your take on how the PBA has stood up for Charles Schwarz?<<<< I dont know a whole lot about the case, other than the fact that he was tried twice in Federal Court, with 2 hung juries, and the US Atty. was ready to go a third time. Again, this would NOT happen to you. Also, there was another officer in the area who was his virtual twin. For what very little it is worth, Volpe testified that Schwarz was not in the area where the crime was committed. Schwarz copped, stating that he could not go on with the constant court cases. To this day, I dont know if he is innocent or guilty. Then again, I was certain that Volpe was innocent. I never would have believed that a police officer would do something this evil, and yes, stupid. But, to answer your question, I have no problem with the PBA for providing him with lawyers. In NYC, it is mandatory to pay PBA dues, and they are obligated to protect you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 Well, I have to disagree. I spent ten years working for a well known communications company that was and is vehemently non union. I started at an entry level white collar job and moved up to middle management. I left that company to take a UNION civil service job that required no college education. While it is considered blue collar it definitely involves no physical labor. The benefits are much better- 3times the sick days, double the holidays, and 65% more pay. Now, who is smarter? The white collar college educated me or the blue collar highly paid me? Unions are no joke. That is merely corporate propaganda to ensure that no one is paid what they are worth, and those at the top are paid vastly more than they are worth. White collars are very replaceable- every bit as much as blue collars. The only unreplaceable is the company owner. Period. And lets get in the real world and admit that not every person at the top worked his A$$ off to get there. Luck has a lot to do with success in life. What family you're born into, where you live etc. And yes, I'm from a white suburban family. 246367[/snapback] So what you're saying is...you're making out like a bandit in your current job. Good for you. Way to help propel the economy with your hard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 So what you're saying is...you're making out like a bandit in your current job. Good for you. Way to help propel the economy with your hard work. No sh*t. The whole point of every pro-union post has generally been the same - I get paid a lot more because of my union. Yeah, we understand that people. But do you deserve it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nobody Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 No sh*t. The whole point of every pro-union post has generally been the same - I get paid a lot more because of my union. Yeah, we understand that people. But do you deserve it? The NHL players sure think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaska Darin Posted February 22, 2005 Share Posted February 22, 2005 No sh*t. The whole point of every pro-union post has generally been the same - I get paid a lot more because of my union. Yeah, we understand that people. But do you deserve it? 248204[/snapback] Then they can B word because the cost of goods in this country (like cars) have risen far faster than wages. Want a new truck? Be prepared to spend $40K. Go unions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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