"How a rookie HC derailed a rookie QB"/All-22 of EJ Manuel

[YoloinOhio]

No, but he has a lack of talent surrounding him in certain positions. The way I see it... EJ's coaching was worse, but had better positional talent... Carr's coaching was better, but had worse positional talent.

 

Though, admittedly, I'm no expert on the Raiders haha

nah me neither. I watched Carr play a few times. He looked ok a couple times and the others he was brutal. Really panics in the pocket. He's got potential for sure but not sold yet, obviously. Good arm, though. Seems like he's always hurt but still plays. Edited July 22, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Dorkington]

Yes I am. EJ Manuel had Watkins, Woods and Williams played in all four games Manuel played as well as a healthy Spiller and Jackson. The o-line sucked for him for the most part. But again, you only count the play calling and the o-line but don't look at the fact that he had above average weapons at his disposal. Did anyone have less competent RB and WR weapons at their disposal last year than Derek Carr? Something tells me that a good QB makes it work with the weapons the Bills had last year.

 

Alright I'm done. You win. Talk to you guys next week once the pads come on.

 

Not sure what I win, because I'm not necessarily arguing anything other than both QBs are pretty similar, and developed in somewhat difficult situations. I see EJ as having a shot to develop with a new staff, and if he doesn't, to the bench he goes, no love lost. I just think Marrone/Hackett really screwed the pooch, and our OL sucked a lot... so it's hard for me to make any final decisions.

 

I kind of feel the same way about Carr, Bridgewater, Bortles, Geno, etc... none of them are really lighting up the league, but none of them are in the greatest developmental positions... there's a lot going against all of the above, they may work out, they not. Most early round QBs greatly depend on being in the right situation in order to grow into a good NFL QB. Some happen to just suck, some happen to be great, but most completely depend on development.

Edited July 22, 2015 by Dorkington

[C.Biscuit97]

Yes I am. EJ Manuel had Watkins, Woods and Williams played in all four games Manuel played as well as a healthy Spiller and Jackson. The o-line sucked for him for the most part. But again, you only count the play calling and the o-line but don't look at the fact that he had above average weapons at his disposal. Did anyone have less competent RB and WR weapons at their disposal last year than Derek Carr? Something tells me that a good QB makes it work with the weapons the Bills had last year.

 

Alright I'm done. You win. Talk to you guys next week once the pads come on.

You can't quit. You feed off hating on EJ.

 

FYI, in his four games, Manuel had better stats than Carr through his first four games.

 

The disconnect comes because no one is saying EJ is going to be great. But he's not close to as bad as some make him out to be. He's very young and had a joke coaching staff. It's not insane to think he can improve in his 3rd year, which is the year most players show their most improvement.

 

Not a guarantee but man, he's playing freaking qb in the NFL. Probably slightly more pressure than most of our jobs, eh?

nah me neither. I watched Carr play a few times. He looked ok a couple times and the others he was brutal. Really panics in the pocket. He's got potential for sure but not sold yet, obviously. Good arm, though. Seems like he's always hurt but still plays.

Agreed. I guess he "beat" the Bills so he must be good.

[Dorkington]

You can't quit. You feed off hating on EJ.

 

FYI, in his four games, Manuel had better stats than Carr through his first four games.

 

The disconnect comes because no one is saying EJ is going to be great. But he's not close to as bad as some make him out to be. He's very young and had a joke coaching staff. It's not insane to think he can improve in his 3rd year, which is the year most players show their most improvement.

 

Not a guarantee but man, he's playing freaking qb in the NFL. Probably slightly more pressure than most of our jobs, eh?

 

Spoiler: EJ sits on internet forums bitching about things, while at his job!

[YoloinOhio]

You can't quit. You feed off hating on EJ.

 

FYI, in his four games, Manuel had better stats than Carr through his first four games.

 

The disconnect comes because no one is saying EJ is going to be great. But he's not close to as bad as some make him out to be. He's very young and had a joke coaching staff. It's not insane to think he can improve in his 3rd year, which is the year most players show their most improvement.

 

Not a guarantee but man, he's playing freaking qb in the NFL. Probably slightly more pressure than most of our jobs, eh?

 

Agreed. I guess he "beat" the Bills so he must be good.

and Orton "beat" the Packers lol

[C.Biscuit97]

 

Spoiler: EJ sits on internet forums bitching about things, while at his job!

All this time I've been defending him! Hey EJ get off the internet, study your playbook, & pay attention in practice!

[John from Riverside]

Personally I'm fine with either QB, they both show promise for being in difficult to develop situations.

I think at this point, if he doesn't win the job, EJ is basically done. Which is a shame, because he's got a good head on his shoulders and a good physical makeup. He, like many promising QBs, are part of a group that greatly depends on decent development if they are going to make it in the NFL. Its rare that a QB is so talented that they just do great regardless of the coaching and talent around them.

I think it would be fair to give EJ one more year PROVIDED that he actually wins the job. Like I have said....dont like the way he has been handled but whatever Roman and Gailey decide on the QBs I am ok with. If they think that Tyrod Taylor gives them the best chance to win then so be it.

 

But if he gets another year.....I think he would have to either show something or we move on.

[C.Biscuit97]

and Orton "beat" the Packers lol

Kyle Orton is a winner, pure and simple!

I think it would be fair to give EJ one more year PROVIDED that he actually wins the job. Like I have said....dont like the way he has been handled but whatever Roman and Gailey decide on the QBs I am ok with. If they think that Tyrod Taylor gives them the best chance to win then so be it.

 

But if he gets another year.....I think he would have to either show something or we move on.

It would be best for the team and EJ to move on if he doesn't win the job. Not until after the season though. Too many things can happen. Cassel gets hurt, EJ steps in and helps us get to the playoffs, then he signs a contract with another team.

[John from Riverside]

Um, Manuel only had Watkins for 4 games in his career. In one of the best starts of his career against our new coach, Manuel threw 3 tds with Goodwin and Graham as his starting Wrs.

 

It's just so funny fans' perspectives. Carr has almost a yard less ypa than Captain Checkdown and he is obviously better than our young qb. Less than 6 ypa is beyond awful.

 

For some reason, I feel a lot of the biggest Manuel badgers were Johnny Manziel fans.

Also important to note....that while I feel Sammy is gonna be a fricken stud....in the last game I went back and re evaluated Sammy had FOUR drops in that game that should have been catches

 

Ironically it was the Texans game after which EJ got benched......4 drops by Sammy......a very nice throw to williams that went off his fingertips that would have been a huge gain......

 

The wide recievers also have to do THEIR jobs

[Dorkington]

I think it would be fair to give EJ one more year PROVIDED that he actually wins the job. Like I have said....dont like the way he has been handled but whatever Roman and Gailey decide on the QBs I am ok with. If they think that Tyrod Taylor gives them the best chance to win then so be it.

 

But if he gets another year.....I think he would have to either show something or we move on.

I'm in the "anyone other than Cassel" camp, simply because I want the Bills to finally have a young QB they can rely on for the foreseeable future haha. Though, that being said.. if we have good blocking, Cassel would be the "safest" bet, at least.

[Bangarang]

Bang, I was remember many on here crapping on Bridgewater because of what the "experts" we're saying after his pre-draft workout. I for one was a big fan of Bridgewater coming out of college and hoped the Bills would draft him. I, personally, would still like EJ over Bridgewater because of EJs arm strength, his stature, his mobility and his upside. I really believe we are going to see more of the 2013 EJ Manuel than last years version. EJ seems, to me, to have a major competitive spirit and wants to put his imprint on this team and the league. I think he will win over his team with his play, like he was doing his rookie season, and eventually the fans like Chan and Metz.

We can't be friends then. The only answer here is Bridgewater over EJ everyday.

 

Bridgewater just as much potential as EJ. It's all about being able to play QB and all these physical and athletic traits mean nothing of the QB doesn't know how to use them.

[John from Riverside]

I'm in the "anyone other than Cassel" camp, simply because I want the Bills to finally have a young QB they can rely on for the foreseeable future haha. Though, that being said.. if we have good blocking, Cassel would be the "safest" bet, at least.

He did beat out bridgewater in camp for the starting spot with the Vikings.....

 

Cassel also has those injury issues....he really needs to pick up his play from off season workouts though

[Bangarang]

Is there anyone who would take Nate Hackett over Norv Turner?

 

But the coaching rookie Qbs have doesn't matter.

 

Bridge water has everything you want in a qb but a big arm. It's why pro days are a joke.

 

Still, you can't understand how much help Norv Turner is to a rookie qb. The fact that EJ got Hackett while Luck got Arians and Bridgewater got Turner is a joke. Turner is a great playcaller.

 

I do worry about Bridgewater's arm. He throws pop ups on deep throws. I get a Pennington vibe. He can get you to the playoffs but you will be a bit limited.

 

Also worth noting that EJ does have a better td to int ratio than TB.

There's a degree of merit to the coaching point but I would contend with Brodgewater was by far the better and more pro ready QB than EJ. Being tall and having a strong arm is not potential. It's iust a physical trait and that is really the only thing EJ has on Bridgewater. Otherwise it's no contest. Clearly you may feel differently.

[John from Riverside]

We can't be friends then. The only answer here is Bridgewater over EJ everyday.

 

Bridgewater just as much potential as EJ. It's all about being able to play QB and all these physical and athletic traits mean nothing of the QB doesn't know how to use them.

Potential is just another word for something a QB hasnt done yet.

There's a degree of merit to the coaching point but I would contend with Brodgewater was by far the better and more pro ready QB than EJ. Being tall and having a strong arm is not potential. It's iust a physical trait and that is really the only thing EJ has on Bridgewater. Otherwise it's no contest. Clearly you may feel differently.

You do realize that QBs mature at different rates?

[Bangarang]

This Carr hype is unreal. He wasn't good at all. He was worse than EJ as a rookie in most categories.

 

Of course right now, EJ's value is down. Where was Alex Smith's value before Harbaugh/ Roman? Then he got traded for 2 2nd rounders. Things can change.

 

And is there one GM that would trade Norv Turner for Nate Hackett?

 

Honest question: would EJ be a better qb if he had Turner his first 2 years instead of Hackett? Because I don't think there's a question he would be.

If people are going to make excuses for EJ and the coaching he received then why do they not make similar excuses for Carr? Who was coaching him and more importantly, look at the talent he had around him on offense. If it matters for EJ then it should for other QBs.. Edited July 22, 2015 by Bangarang

[Dorkington]

He did beat out bridgewater in camp for the starting spot with the Vikings.....

 

Cassel also has those injury issues....he really needs to pick up his play from off season workouts though

Indeed.

 

Basically, imo, it'll all come down to our blocking. If our blocking is there, I'm sure one of our three QBs will be just fine for us. If it's one of the younger guys, awesome, we have a QB for a little while at least. If it's not, well at least we have a guy for one or two years until we draft another.

 

Dear god I hope our offensive line is successful this year.

[John from Riverside]

If people are going to make excuses for EJ and the coaching he received then why do they not make similar excuses for Carr? Who was coaching him and more importantly, look at the talent he had around him on offense. If it matters for EJ then it should for other QBs..

I saw a lot of Carr first hand last year as I live in a house filled with Raider fans

 

And I think he is a good QB......I also think he played in a much more QB friendly system......was given the green light to actually try to win games with his arm.....and played on a HORRIBLE raiders team so there was not that much pressure on him......

 

That said...I thought he was one of the best players on the offensive side of the ball and that team got better as the season went along.

[C.Biscuit97]

There's a degree of merit to the coaching point but I would contend with Brodgewater was by far the better and more pro ready QB than EJ. Being tall and having a strong arm is not potential. It's iust a physical trait and that is really the only thing EJ has on Bridgewater. Otherwise it's no contest. Clearly you may feel differently.

I like Bridgewater a lot. I do think he was more pro ready than Manuel. I do worry about Bridgewater's arm strength though.

 

So if you have a rawer college qb, shouldn't you give him something more than a qb coach and OC who's biggest claim to fame is Ryan Nassib? Turner has worked with Ricers, Aikman, Alex Smith.

 

Again, I don't know how good Manuel will be. But holy crap was his development managed. And the fact he has had games where he has outplayed Brady, beat the #2 defense, lit up Rex Ryan shows there is some talent.

If people are going to make excuses for EJ and the coaching he received then why do they not make similar excuses for Carr? Who was coaching him and more importantly, look at the talent he had around him on offense. If it matters for EJ then it should for other QBs..

True. Our Wrs Manuel's rookie year weren't that great though. Stevie was hurt most of the year and might have started his regression.

[YoloinOhio]

Bridgewater is very accurate. This will be why he is successful. I do think he could be susceptible to injury due to his size/style. I like him a lot but of course not sold yet, too soon to tell. I thought he was the best QB in last year's draft though. Also seems high character.

Edited July 22, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

And guy, you gotta stop calling every writer a hack and everyone who is not as glowingly optimistic about EJ Manuel (or the Bills in general for that matter) as you are, a hater. No one is out to get the Bills. They have sucked for the better part of 15 years. The Bills are definitely an 'I'll believe it when I see it' proposition to every sane, unbiased football fan, writer and analyst in the United States. And so too, of course, is EJ Manuel. Bills fans sound like such a bunch of losers as it is with the constant "Cheatriots" and "Pats*" nonsense. Can we please stop with the "Why don't they respect us?" narrative? I promise you that if the Bills are good and win a lot of games that these hacks and haters you speak of will stop trashing our beloved Bills.

 

Also, I don't have ESPN Insider. Can someone tell me where they had Manuel ranked?

When everyone of them looks no further than the 16 year drought and ranks Buffalo well lower than what their record says the entity as a whole are poor judges. As I said there are some who are critical yet honest in their assessment.

the others don't really commit to an honest analysis.

 

Yes "they have sucked for 15 seasons" BUT IMO that is no reason to rate the Browns, Skins, JETS, etc better than the Bills.

 

ESPN INsider? Why would anyone want to pay for news you can get for free??

 

Does anyone expect ESPN to rate EJ on the list when all of them have Meh as the #1?

 

FireChan, on 22 Jul 2015 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'll take the QB who threw more TD's in his rookie year than the other QB threw in 2 years.

 

 

Without knowing the offensive philosophy of the two teams........

 

ok?

I'd bet he picked EJ's #'s