Taking Marrone vs. Ryan coaching styles into consideration

[dezertbill]

Allot has been said about the past performances of many Bills over the last two seasons.

 

Specifically on offense, from offensive line to most importantly QB, some players have not performed up to standard based on their experience in a system led by Nate Hackett and Doug Marrone.

 

I read last year there was a beef between FO and Marrone about the HC giving up on Kouandjio so early. That may have had an effect on his confidence which doomed his rookie year. Ryan might see something different, and with the 2nd year pro now in lineman camp a fresh start may lead to positive production.

 

I think the same with EJ. Ryan admitted that he thought Manuel should use his legs more, and it was said that Marrone wanted him to be more of a pocket passer. Sometimes when you try and make someone something they aren't so early in their career the learning curve is longer. Obviously it affected Manuel's play as it seemed the read option disappeared from the offensive playbook evident by his per game rushing totals dipping. I’m sure it crushed his confidence as well, which led to his poor play and ultimate benching.

 

You can even make a case for Cyrus Richardson's success (or lack thereof).

 

It's bad enough ESPN, NFL Network and entire press keeps crucifying Manuel and the QB spot for being so bad, along with Buffalo's O Line. That has to stick in the craw of those mentioned above and motivate them more.

 

All I’m saying is we have some very young & promising talent that for whatever reason didn't work under Hackett/Marrone. That doesn't mean it won't happen under Ryan and a different tutelage.

 

Manuel had some great moments and I expect him to build from that being in his 3rd year. I also believe Ryan & Roman will be more focused on Manuel's strengths and how to tap into those. I see the same happening for Kouandjio. Both have been extremely humbled by their experiences last season and seem to be very proud & determined players who were used to success at other levels of competition.

 

I’m interested and at the same time excited to see what type of growth comes from those two players (along with Richardson). Especially Manuel, who if he can turn the corner, can really make this team one that will be very difficult to play against, period.

[bowery4]

I think you don't really expect a QB from one regime to work with the new coach, maybe with our GM not having changed this may not be the case but I think that the obvious covering of the asses has happened (in the form so far of Cassel but I wouldn't be surprised if we see another QB so way some how still), so all things considered I hope EJ has something to show but am not really expecting much. QB is still this club's biggest hole, that still has to be bothering everyone. If it was my FO I certainly would be still trying, I don't doubt that Doug and Rex are on that wavelength.

[3rdand12]

The coaching was suspect, in my mind. and then confirmed when the hoodwinkinbumbledum left the building in a scurry.

every player in the offense will improve to some degree. and i can think they are motivated more by believing in the current staff all the way up to El Peg.
i am hoping just as you are Bill !

[1billsfan]

Allot has been said about the past performances of many Bills over the last two seasons.

 

Specifically on offense, from offensive line to most importantly QB, some players have not performed up to standard based on their experience in a system led by Nate Hackett and Doug Marrone.

 

I read last year there was a beef between FO and Marrone about the HC giving up on Kouandjio so early. That may have had an effect on his confidence which doomed his rookie year. Ryan might see something different, and with the 2nd year pro now in lineman camp a fresh start may lead to positive production.

 

I think the same with EJ. Ryan admitted that he thought Manuel should use his legs more, and it was said that Marrone wanted him to be more of a pocket passer. Sometimes when you try and make someone something they aren't so early in their career the learning curve is longer. Obviously it affected Manuel's play as it seemed the read option disappeared from the offensive playbook evident by his per game rushing totals dipping. I’m sure it crushed his confidence as well, which led to his poor play and ultimate benching.

 

You can even make a case for Cyrus Richardson's success (or lack thereof).

 

It's bad enough ESPN, NFL Network and entire press keeps crucifying Manuel and the QB spot for being so bad, along with Buffalo's O Line. That has to stick in the craw of those mentioned above and motivate them more.

 

All I’m saying is we have some very young & promising talent that for whatever reason didn't work under Hackett/Marrone. That doesn't mean it won't happen under Ryan and a different tutelage.

 

Manuel had some great moments and I expect him to build from that being in his 3rd year. I also believe Ryan & Roman will be more focused on Manuel's strengths and how to tap into those. I see the same happening for Kouandjio. Both have been extremely humbled by their experiences last season and seem to be very proud & determined players who were used to success at other levels of competition.

 

I’m interested and at the same time excited to see what type of growth comes from those two players (along with Richardson). Especially Manuel, who if he can turn the corner, can really make this team one that will be very difficult to play against, period.

 

First off...happy birthday EJ! Just checked out his twitter page and he was thanking the well wishers there.

 

Secondly, I think Manuel's burning motivation will be to "shove it" to the Jags' OL coach season. I'm totally serious.

 

Lastly, this is his last chance with Buffalo and he gets it with a proven successful OC in Greg Roman. EJ won't be able to say that the Bills didn't support him in this his 3rd and most important season. Coaches, receiving options, running game...it's all there on a silver platter for him.

[Kelly the Dog]

To be fair to Marrone and Hackett, even though I hate them and am thrilled they are gone, EJ hurt his knee three times his rookie year while trying to run or not sliding. He missed a lot of time. So during the off season, not knowing if he was actually injury prone, but also because they wanted to make him into more of a passer now that they had Watkins and Williams, they basically ordered him not to run. They didn't call running plays for him, and they told him not to take off and run when the rush was on. That's why you didn't see him do it last year.

 

Ultimately it hurt him, because he couldn't use his legs as much, and it was another thing he had to think about rather than just play naturally. But they did it because he got hurt before and they didn't want him hurt again. They went too far, IMO, but it wasn't baseless.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Kelly the Dog

[BilLions]

Gotta think much of this playoff drought has been due to skimping on coaching. Rex should make the difference across the board.

[John from Riverside]

I actually give no credit to the marrone era because of what he did with Urbik

 

Urbik is not a pro bowler.....but the line immediately started playing better when he was inserted back in.

[FireChan]

EJ Manuel didn't run the read option in college. He IS a pocket passer.

[Uffalo Ills]

Cyrus Richardson? He must be the awful combo of Cyril Richardson and Kouandjio. Unfortunately, he is no more than the sum of his parts...

[Kelly the Dog]

EJ Manuel didn't run the read option in college. He IS a pocket passer.

He ran it a bunch of times as a rookie, and he took off out of the pocket as a rookie. They refused to let him do that last year because they were worried he would get hurt again. It was a mistake.

[FireChan]

He ran it a bunch of times as a rookie, and he took off out of the pocket as a rookie. They refused to let him do that last year because they were worried he would get hurt again. It was a mistake.

While that's true that he ran it as a rookie, I and many others on this board wanted EJ to stay healthy above almost all costs, including even wins in 2014. Calling it a mistake is a benefit of hindsight.

 

EJ getting sidelined because of an inflamed knee does nothing for his development. Nothing. Inviting a Jake Locker situation would've been crazy.

[3rdand12]

I actually give no credit to the marrone era because of what he did with Urbik

 

Urbik is not a pro bowler.....but the line immediately started playing better when he was inserted back in.

and at LEFT guard not his natural position.

The Horror. the horror.

Have Seantrel play LT all along. then move him to RT and move Pears to guard to start the season??

and Kelly you have good point, ! i thought those ass wagons were thinking about his knee and trying to protect him>

But when they left him in the pocket the really left him altogether. I have a tummy ache thinking about that crap

Edited March 20, 2015 by 3rdand12

[JohnC]

To be fair to Marrone and Hackett, even though I hate them and am thrilled they are gone, EJ hurt his knee three times his rookie year while trying to run or not sliding. He missed a lot of time. So during the off season, not knowing if he was actually injury prone, but also because they wanted to make him into more of a passer now that they had Watkins and Williams, they basically ordered him not to run. They didn't call running plays for him, and they told him not to take off and run when the rush was on. That's why you didn't see him do it last year.

 

Ultimately it hurt him, because he couldn't use his legs as much, and it was another thing he had to think about rather than just play naturally. But they did it because he got hurt before and they didn't want him hurt again. They went too far, IMO, but it wasn't baseless.

The issue of running or not to run was not the primary problem associated with EJ's performances. The main problem with EJ's play involved his reading of defenses and his accuracy. His decision-making regarding whether to run or not or when to slide in order to protect himself is related to his decision-making and feel for the game.

 

No one can deny that he has physical tools. But those talents don't translate into productivity if you don't know how to play. As bad as Orton was at least he knew how to play. Manuel is to put it in basketball terms is playing a point guard position with no feel on how to manage an offense with instinctive decision-making. With experience he can get better in that area but only up to a point.

 

He is a quality person with a good work ethic. But he has a low ceiling regarding his instincts for the game and his accuracy level will never be consistent enough to be an impactful starter. The question of whether he can be a starter should not be the defining issue. The meaningful issue/question is if he becomes a starter how good can he be and how far can he take the team? Teams that are serious contenders usually have very good starting qbs. That is a level that I don't believe he can attain.

[Kelly the Dog]

While that's true that he ran it as a rookie, I and many others on this board wanted EJ to stay healthy above almost all costs, including even wins in 2014. Calling it a mistake is a benefit of hindsight.

 

EJ getting sidelined because of an inflamed knee does nothing for his development. Nothing. Inviting a Jake Locker situation would've been crazy.

If EJ was injury prone, he is going to get hurt anyway, just getting hit or scrambling the way he does, reversing his field, etc. If he wasn't 100%, sure, you don't want him to run until he is.

 

If he's 100%, and not injury prone, and only got hurt because of 1] fluke hits, 2] not being smart or experienced enough to slide, and/or 3] a cheap shot which isn't likely to happen again then you teach him when to slide or get again of bounds but you do not tell him not to run, and you do not stop calling read option, because you're taking away 5-10% of his effectiveness and the reason you drafted him and he doesn't have enough effectiveness to give away. That's not hindsight.

The issue of running or not to run was not the primary problem associated with EJ's performances. The main problem with EJ's play involved his reading of defenses and his accuracy. His decision-making regarding whether to run or not or when to slide in order to protect himself is related to his decision-making and feel for the game.

 

No one can deny that he has physical tools. But those talents don't translate into productivity if you don't know how to play. As bad as Orton was at least he knew how to play. Manuel is to put it in basketball terms is playing a point guard position with no feel on how to manage an offense with instinctive decision-making. With experience he can get better in that area but only up to a point.

 

He is a quality person with a good work ethic. But he has a low ceiling regarding his instincts for the game and his accuracy level will never be consistent enough to be an impactful starter. The question of whether he can be a starter should not be the defining issue. The meaningful issue/question is if he becomes a starter how good can he be and how far can he take the team? Teams that are serious contenders usually have very good starting qbs. That is a level that I don't believe he can attain.

I agree with that but it's not what I was talking about.

 

EJ was raw coming in. Everyone knew it and everyone said it. Pundits and the Bills themselves. What he needed was time, good coaching and experience. He's got very crappy coaching so far, a little time and a little experience. The jury is out but he has a long way to go. I'm not expecting much but he will have a chance with a new staff, and likely much better coaching.

 

I think there is about an 80% chance that Cassell beats him out as of now.

[FireChan]

If EJ was injury prone, he is going to get hurt anyway, just getting hit or scrambling the way he does, reversing his field, etc. If he wasn't 100%, sure, you don't want him to run until he is.

 

If he's 100%, and not injury prone, and only got hurt because of 1] fluke hits, 2] not being smart or experienced enough to slide, and/or 3] a cheap shot which isn't likely to happen again then you teach him when to slide or get again of bounds but you do not tell him not to run, and you do not stop calling read option, because you're taking away 5-10% of his effectiveness and the reason you drafted him and he doesn't have enough effectiveness to give away. That's not hindsight.

How do we know he's not injury prone?

 

We don't. EJ as a prospect is an amorphous blob. The only way he will get better is by staying healthy and practicing/getting game experience. He can't do either of those things injured. I'd consider telling him to not take risks with his body as necessary for him to continue to develop.

 

You gave me a false choice up there. QB's that run the read option get hit more than QB's that don't. That's just a fact. Getting hit is usually a decent avenue to getting injured.

Edited March 20, 2015 by FireChan

[Kelly the Dog]

How do we know he's not injury prone?

We really don't. But he hadn't been before. What I said was, if he is injury prone, protecting him like that probably isn't going to save him from getting hurt just from hits and scrambling, AND it lessens the likelihood of him being any good at all, so it's a mistake to tell him not to run. But they did, and it hurt his game.

[Green Lightning]

I wouldn't care EJ runs or not. As long as he can hit slant in stride and be accurate. He's just not accurate. Let's see what happens this year.

[1billsfan]

If EJ was injury prone, he is going to get hurt anyway, just getting hit or scrambling the way he does, reversing his field, etc. If he wasn't 100%, sure, you don't want him to run until he is.

 

If he's 100%, and not injury prone, and only got hurt because of 1] fluke hits, 2] not being smart or experienced enough to slide, and/or 3] a cheap shot which isn't likely to happen again then you teach him when to slide or get again of bounds but you do not tell him not to run, and you do not stop calling read option, because you're taking away 5-10% of his effectiveness and the reason you drafted him and he doesn't have enough effectiveness to give away. That's not hindsight.

I agree with that but it's not what I was talking about.

 

EJ was raw coming in. Everyone knew it and everyone said it. Pundits and the Bills themselves. What he needed was time, good coaching and experience. He's got very crappy coaching so far, a little time and a little experience. The jury is out but he has a long way to go. I'm not expecting much but he will have a chance with a new staff, and likely much better coaching.

 

I think there is about an 80% chance that Cassell beats him out as of now.

 

Cassel lost his starting job to Brady Quinn and never got it back. That's how bad he was. I wonder how many Bills fans here even know this. Cassel seems like a good guy, but IMO he's a back up only QB at this point in his career.

 

I give Manuel an 80% chance of beating him because 1. they are clearly building the offense around a QB who can move with the ball and 2. Manuel is better than him right now and has a lot more room to grow.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Cassel lost his starting job to Brady Quinn and never got it back. That's how bad he was. I wonder how many Bills fans here even know this. Cassel seems like a good guy, but IMO he's a back up only QB at this point in his career.

 

I give Manuel an 80% chance of beating him because 1. they are clearly building the offense around a QB who can move with the ball and 2. Manuel is better than him right now and has a lot more room to grow.

Cassell beat out Bridgewater last year in training camp for the starting job. Started the first three games until he got hurt.

 

I don't think he is good, I just think what he needs to do in this particular offense he will be better to execute the game plan than EJ or Taylor because of his experience and the fact he can deliver short passes.

[1billsfan]

Cassell beat out Bridgewater last year in training camp for the starting job. Started the first three games until he got hurt.

 

I don't think he is good, I just think what he needs to do in this particular offense he will be better to execute the game plan than EJ or Taylor because of his experience and the fact he can deliver short passes.

 

I think that Norv did not want to put pressure on Bridgewater to start the season. The kid completely bombed his pro day and IMO they were taking an as slow of an approach as possible with him. There's no way that Cassel outperformed him in training camp.

 

As for the Bills offense, the addition of players like Clay and Harvin tell me that they are going to try to tie defenses up in knots. You can't do that with a stationary Cassel. If they know that Cassel is a statue and that he's only throwing quick outs then that will be easy to defend. If they have Manuel in there doing roll outs, fake reverses and such then it will really put pressure on defenses. I think they are going to use a lot of misdirection and Cassel does not have the added element that EJ has, the ability to run. If Cassel was great at throwing the ball then that would be a different situation. However, Cassel seems like he isn't good at that anymore. At least not as good as he used to be. I think the guy is in "cruise" mode as a back up NFL player.