duey Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Living just outside NYC, I have this issue rubbed in my face on a daily basis. Between that jackass Fireman Ed doing radio commercials for the stadium, the near daily press conferences by NYC Mayor Bloomberg, and the chest-thumping by Jets fans who absolutely MUST have their own stadium, its just become a constant source of aggravation. And here's the reason why... If you weren't aware, our fair govenor has committed hundreds of millions of New York STATE tax dollars to help fund the construction of the proposed West Side Stadium. The rationale for doing this is that this stadium will be the crown jewel of NYC's bid for the 2012 Summer Olympics. While the financial impact to the State of New York of winning those Olympics is arguable at best, read below by the financing of the stadium will do: - The stadium plan is an enormous diversion of at least $600 million in public funds from schools, housing, public safety, and other important initiatives to help a football team owner from New Jersey build a new stadium. - The public funds that would be devoted to this project alone almost exceed the total cost of any other stadium in this country. - The bill to the taxpayers will be much higher than $600 million - when all the City and State contributions to the stadium are included, such as: the value of the MTA's prime waterfront land, transit improvements, adjoining parks, pedestrian bridges and tunnels, parking garages for Jets fans, and other infrastructure. - This money is being spent at a time when the city has closed six firehouses, public schools are grossly underfunded, and both the city and the state face massive debt that has recently resulted in large increases in taxes. This is money that could otherwise go to rebuilding Lower Manhattan, our schools, and our firehouses, or providing better health care and more affordable housing to those who need it most. - If the Jets use PILOT's (Payments in Lieu of Taxes) to help finance their $800 million stadium contribution, as has been proposed, some portion of stadium revenue would be spent on repaying the Jets debt to individual bond-holders rather than going into government tax coffers, amounting to yet another taxpayer subsidy for the Jets. - Even the City Independent Budget Office's most optimistic projections for City and State revenue from the stadium are far below Jets estimates. Should revenues fail to meet those rosy projections, the City and State may have to cut services, raise taxes, or borrow more money to service the debt created by building the Jets stadium. The fact that the City of New York and the New JERSEY Jets seek to gain such an asset at the expense of taxpayers in such places as Lockport, Tully, Lansing and Watertown is an abomination. If you feel the same way, please go to the following website, read up on the facts yourself, and contact your government representatives. http://newyorkabc.org/content/officials.html Thanks! Duey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 And here we have exhibit ZZZZZ on why people are leaving WNY in droves. CW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Everybody fails to mention that if you build the stadium a few miles west in Queens, the cost is HALF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Between that jackass Fireman Ed doing radio commercials for the stadium, Classic line!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanone Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I want to see the stadium built! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Everybody fails to mention that if you build the stadium a few miles west in Queens, the cost is HALF. 223970[/snapback] Well, its mentioned on that website under "Facts." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 I want to see the stadium built! 223996[/snapback] Why? 'Cause it looks purdy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Well, its mentioned on that website under "Facts." 224024[/snapback] On this they do...but the media NEVER mentions it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 I find that the media outlets have actually been pretty fair in talking about the downside to the monstrosity. And I find it hard to believe that this thing will be able to be built without the use of massive amounts of public funds being put up for a statewide vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattyT Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 D-E-B-T-S! Debts, debts, debts!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udonkey Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 How is it that Cincinnati, with a population (metro area, including suburbs) of less than one million, can build a $450 million stadium, but NYC is having difficulty. Why must the state get involved? Can't the largest city in the world finance it? I'm not an expert (obviously) but it just doesn't make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamboni Man Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Didn't they try to do the same thing to get a new stadium built for the Yankees right before Rudy's last term as mayor ended? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Didn't they try to do the same thing to get a new stadium built for the Yankees right before Rudy's last term as mayor ended? 224071[/snapback] Yeah...and the only reason it failed was that George didn't want to pay a cent for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanone Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Why? 'Cause it looks purdy? 224026[/snapback] Cause it'll be cool to have a pro stadium in manhattan. Plus, it'll be less of a commute for me to the Jets game every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30dive Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 And I have always been one of those people who has recognized not only the down side, but the up side to NYC. I am not one of those who argues that Upstate would be better off without NYC........quite frankly it would not. But this is just another example of downstate politicians working with a blind eye toward upstate. Yes a new stadium would be nice in NYC, and any help to bring in Olympics would be good as well, however, when will Albany ever look west? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zamboni Man Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Yeah...and the only reason it failed was that George didn't want to pay a cent for it. I like the Yankees, but anybody would have a tough time convincing me that they don't make enough money to build a stadium without any help from the state or NYC. In fact, I think you could say the same thing about the Jets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eSJayDee Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Look at it from a finanical standpoint. I'm not sure of actual facts (they tend to cloud an opinion ) but... $600m is roughly $40/head for NYS residents. Relative to what we're paying, that's trivial. Further, here's an important issue. Right now, I assume NYJ are a New JERSEY team, ergo pay NJ taxes. W/ their stadium in New York, we get to have income tax on their salaries AND sales tax on ticket sales, etc. Figure easily $70m/yr in salaries @ even 6% plus another 8% of perhaps $50m in ticket sales, etc. Right there, those revenues alone offset perhaps 20-25% of the cost. Those are direct costs. The don't take into consideration about tickle down effects not to mention the original $600m cost, which of course NYS will get a decent tax share of. Add to that additional property tax revenue. (Also, bear in mind, that revenues (& expenses) are distributed among several entities (county, town/municipality, state) but considering how we allocate things (state subsidies, etc) I really don't think that's an issue. Finally, if this indeed is sufficient to attract the Olympics, I suspect the impact of that would be VERY profitable for the State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Boy, you sound like a commercial yourself -- one of the ones from Cablevision because they don't want competition for MSG. A couple of points....it won't be a New JERSEY team if they build the stadium in NYC. Aside form the stadium generated revenue, you just added $60MM (or whatever the cap # is) in annual payroll to NYC. The land in question is hardly "prime". If it was, Trump or someone would have developed it years ago. What revenue is that space generating for the city now? As for a better use of the money, that all depends on who you ask. The city spends about $16 BILLION dollars on its educational system each year. Is a one time cost of $600MM really going to make a difference in education? People who are really concerned about the financial condition of NYC and the resulting impact on the state should take a look at the size of the city government. NYC has approximately 300,000 public section employees (approximately 20% as big as the entire federal government, which as we all know is bloated to absurd proportions). According to the NYC Independent Budget Office, the AVERAGE public section employee costs NYC $86,000 per year. That’s about $26B a year in compensation costs that taxpayers are supporting. The 2003 figures are as follows: Salary+OT+other - $59,704 Fringe Benefits 19,085 Pension 7,168 Total $85,957 Remember, that’s the average; the rookie cop makes about half that. Also, on the firehouses closings, wasn't there a study done that determined those houses were unnecessary (due to proximity of other firehouses – the city has 340 of them) and didn't the city realize an annual savings of $1MM per house in reduced operating expenses? I was under the impression that the firehouse battle was over 'turf' more than anything else. In the end, I don't know the numbers well enough to know if the stadium is a good or bad idea, but I do know that the PR coming from both sides on this issue is nothing but a lot of bull sh-- and there are a lot of other places to save $600MM if that is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draconator Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 (edited) If this does go through, I can imagine a lot of similar reaction to what the City of Oakland did for Grandma Al Davis. They soaked taxpayers for over $100 to lure the Raiders back to Oakland, and now the first thing you see when leaving the Oakland Airport is Mount Davis. Now, when the A's really need a new stadium to keep the team in Oakland, there's no way taxpayers are gonna go for it, due to what happened 10 years ago with what turned out to be a debacle for the Raiders. The new owner is looking hard to keep the team in Oakland, and build a new stadium in the Colliseum parking lot, but if the city and state can't come up with the additional $350 for a stadium (The A's are willing to kick in $100 Million), they'll be in either San Jose, Sacremento, or Las Vegas. When it's time for the Yankees, Mets, or any other team to get a new stadium, or major improvements to their existing facilities, this $600 Million offer could put such a sour face on public funding for a new stadium, that the other teams will be S.O.L. Edited January 31, 2005 by Draconator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RkFast Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Hate to do it, but I have to stick up for Jets fan here. No one I know, and I live two miles from Jets HQ on Long Island, really WANTS that West Side Stadium. They ALL want it in Queens, next to Shea Stadium. That Queens location makes perfect sense....all the access points are there, including roads, water, rail (from Long Island AND NYC) and even air. And the cost would be half. And even though I hate their guts, you gotta admit...those Jets fans deserve their own park. They play in another team's park....in Jersey! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobblehead Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 $600m is roughly $40/head for NYS residents. Relative to what we're paying, that's trivial.224100[/snapback] How much is it per head of the NYS residents who will be actually be paying it? That's not trivial to alot of those people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 And I have always been one of those people who has recognized not only the down side, but the up side to NYC. I am not one of those who argues that Upstate would be better off without NYC........quite frankly it would not. But this is just another example of downstate politicians working with a blind eye toward upstate. Yes a new stadium would be nice in NYC, and any help to bring in Olympics would be good as well, however, when will Albany ever look west? 224086[/snapback] Upstate New York would be better off without NYC. Yes, NYC can generate a lot of tax revenue, but its existence masks the true economic woes of this area. Wouldn't we be the poorest state in the country if we seperated off of NYC? Having that distinction would bring some national attention to the problems people face here, instead they are ignored. Besides, any revenue advantage is decreasing: the school aid changes will have disastorous effects on upstate either in decreased spending or increased taxes. The Assembly is run by city politicians and the Senate is run by Long Island. Upstate and downstate are too different to effectively coexist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Let's also not forget about what the new stadium mean for the Jets fans and the Bills fans. More revenue for the Jets will allow them to have richer signing bonuses and strengthen their ability to attract FAs over us. Also for the Jets fans this means significantly higher ticket prices, no real parking, no tailgaiting, crappier season tickets, etc. I am not sure who really benefits here besides the owner and Jets fans living on Manhattan. For Jets fans in most areas, it will be more difficult to go to a game. The state had much more important things to spend its money on and it has things they could get a much better return on investment from. If they are going to build them a stadium, at least find a more cost-effective way to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I spoke to somebody who said a friend has in the works a business that would rent out pontoon boats so people can tailgate on the Hudson River before games. Actually a great idea since there will be NOWHERE to tailgate, and bars won't be able to fit the 50,000 people who probably like to party before the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
udonkey Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I spoke to somebody who said a friend has in the works a business that would rent out pontoon boats so people can tailgate on the Hudson River before games. Actually a great idea since there will be NOWHERE to tailgate, and bars won't be able to fit the 50,000 people who probably like to party before the games. 224144[/snapback] Cool idea. Seems like a disaster waiting to happen though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I spoke to somebody who said a friend has in the works a business that would rent out pontoon boats so people can tailgate on the Hudson River before games. Actually a great idea since there will be NOWHERE to tailgate, and bars won't be able to fit the 50,000 people who probably like to party before the games. 224144[/snapback] That's a fantastic idea. Tell him they should have one boat reserved for visiting team fans. Can you imagine that? Everyone can roll the Pinto right onto the boat for the tailgate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 This is a little dated, but I still agree with it: Upstate Should Secede from Metro NY. I'd like to know how much (if any) NY taxpayer money went to refurbish the Ralph some years back... anyone? BTW if NYC does get the 2012 Olympics, then I am friggin' moving out of this area of SW CT that summer. Traffic is already a joke and would become unbearable throughout the games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillnutinHouston Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 when will Albany ever look west? 224086[/snapback] How quickly they forget!!! I seem to recall that the State kicked in BIG TIME when we redid the Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike32282 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I've been against this stadium from the beginning. It's such a damn waste of money and the worst part would be that if they spend all that money to get the Olympics and the bid fails. Let NYC pay for the damn thing. This state is broke enough right now. Leave some money for Western NY. We could use a lot for the schools and everything else. Hell, Rochester is going to be closing at least one school because they can't afford it. There is no way in hell that my tax dollars should be used to pay for a !@#$ing Stadium. :I starred in Brokeback Mountain: Pataki and all you NYC government MORONS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfanone Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I spoke to somebody who said a friend has in the works a business that would rent out pontoon boats so people can tailgate on the Hudson River before games. Actually a great idea since there will be NOWHERE to tailgate, and bars won't be able to fit the 50,000 people who probably like to party before the games. 224144[/snapback] Plus bars can't serve before noon on Sundays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 the stadium will also be a part of a much needed convention center complex, which will help them get trade show business from cities like Chicago, New Orleans, Atlanta, Vegas etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 Hate to do it, but I have to stick up for Jets fan here. No one I know, and I live two miles from Jets HQ on Long Island, really WANTS that West Side Stadium. They ALL want it in Queens, next to Shea Stadium. That Queens location makes perfect sense....all the access points are there, including roads, water, rail (from Long Island AND NYC) and even air. And the cost would be half. And even though I hate their guts, you gotta admit...those Jets fans deserve their own park. They play in another team's park....in Jersey! 224120[/snapback] Hey...no slight to the Jets fans intended. My father-in-law is a season ticket holder since 1968, and he would love nothing better to get back out to Queens. This whole stadium thing is less about the Jets then it is the City of New York wanting more than just the Olympics as the reason to have it built. P.S. I don't want the damn Olympics here either. The security issues around here are a nightmare if we go from yellow to orange...I can only image the hell when we bring folks from 200+ nations into this area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duey Posted January 31, 2005 Author Share Posted January 31, 2005 the stadium will also be a part of a much needed convention center complex, which will help them get trade show business from cities like Chicago, New Orleans, Atlanta, Vegas etc. 224233[/snapback] Have you ever seen the Jacob Javits center? With MSG a few blocks away? Like New York can't get enough freaking people to come here as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill from NYC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Let the jests fans have what they deserve, a stadium with no parking lot and no tailgates. They can go to a 12 dollar per beer bar in which no smoking is allowed. Enjoy yourselves, morons! I will be partying with Mark, cl, 89, Badolbilz and crew, R.Rich, Lancaster Steve, JIS, bill in livonia, and whoever else cares to honor me with their presence! Sorry to those I left out. There should be no jests fans living in the state of NY imo. I lived in Queens for 34 years and am a recovering jest fan. They left us. They decided to abandon their NYC fans. Honestly, they did me a favor, because the day they left, I commited myself to the Buffalo Bills football team and have never looked back. Have fun jests fans! Spend $300 - $500 dollars to see a football game with no tailgate (the best part of football)!!! Tell them Bill from NYC says hello from Orchard Park, where he tailgates and watches football games with the greatest fans of any team in any sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gmac17 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Have you ever seen the Jacob Javits center? With MSG a few blocks away? Like New York can't get enough freaking people to come here as it is. the Javits center sucks. Ask NYC about their convention business compared to places like Las Vegas, Chicago, New Orleans and Orlando - it is a fraction of what they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkady Renko Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 the Javits center sucks. Ask NYC about their convention business compared to places like Las Vegas, Chicago, New Orleans and Orlando - it is a fraction of what they get. 224277[/snapback] I am ignorant of this issue, but is it really the convention centers that is the problem or that it is more expensive to have things in general in NYC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsNYC Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I am ignorant of this issue, but is it really the convention centers that is the problem or that it is more expensive to have things in general in NYC? 224292[/snapback] I've never been IN Javitz, but I heard it sucks. They def need to remodel it. Adding a billion dollar stadium next door is not the answer. There already is a TON of traffic on the West Side, especially since that's where all the cruise ships dock and the Intrepid Air Craft Carrier museum is right there. Plus, you have MSG located a few blocks away, as well as Time's Square. Honestly...the only reason people want the stadium is because it's cool. I agree it'd be cool to have a state of the art stadium located in Manhattan, but the logistics for making it happen aren't worth it. And I HATE the Fireman Ed commercial...of course the other side has yet to put out an impressive counter ad in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 Cause it'll be cool to have a pro stadium in manhattan. Plus, it'll be less of a commute for me to the Jets game every year. Damn, you're not too selfish, are you? Is your name George Costanza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30dive Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 How quickly they forget!!! I seem to recall that the State kicked in BIG TIME when we redid the Ralph. 224223[/snapback] This is more than one stadium, more than one issue, the country is in a "recovery" but central and western NY continue to fall into decline, while Albany continues to ignore. Hell even my old hometown of Rochester is hurting and that place used to be a self supporting island, and no 70,000 seat stadium has ever been built there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB27 Posted January 31, 2005 Share Posted January 31, 2005 I think they should build the stadium. It would be great for NYC, and the 600mil is quickly offset by the money this would bring in. I hope it happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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