jethro_tull Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) The offensive line improves significantly in run blocking and downfield penetration. While pass protection was OK, run blocking was horrid when it mattered last season. Sure the stats show decent run production but digging a little deeper it seems as most teams gave our run offense a bend but don't break attitude. Consider- 3rd down conversion - 29th 4th down conversion- 29th Red zone TDs- 29th. Our line could not penetrate well enough to get those crucial short yard conversions. Watching the games last season I dreaded the 3rd and short, 4th and short plays. They almost always failed as indicated by the above stats. It also seemed like a high amount of 3rd and long plays as well. When you can't get run penetration on first and second downs, good defenses will eat you for lunch on those 3rd and long plays. Especially against young QBs and receivers that have a hard time getting seperation. Key to the season remains the OL. So far in camp it is off to a rocky start. I'm hoping that Cyrus can truly make a contribution this season although he is now playing on the second team. Edited July 27, 2014 by jethro_tull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swnybillsfan Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 it would definitely be nice to see this line open some holes for the running backs on this team, especially on 3rd and 4th downs. to be able to push a d-line back when you really need to would be a wonderful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The offensive line improves significantly in run blocking and downfield penetration. While pass protection was OK, run blocking was horrid when it mattered last season. Sure the stats show decent run production but digging a little deeper it seems as most teams gave our run offense a bend but don't break attitude. Consider- 3rd down conversion - 29th 4th down conversion- 29th Red zone TDs- 29th. Our line could not penetrate well enough to get those crucial short yard conversions. Watching the games last season I dreaded the 3rd and short, 4th and short plays. They almost always failed as indicated by the above stats. It also seemed like a high amount of 3rd and long plays as well. When you can't get run penetration on first and second downs, good defenses will eat you for lunch on those 3rd and long plays. Especially against young QBs and receivers that have a hard time getting seperation. Key to the season remains the OL. So far in camp it is off to a rocky start. I'm hoping that Cyrus can truly make a contribution this season although he is now playing on the second team. I agree. The OL struggled to open holes, or to get any push in short yardage situations. The production we did get was mostly due to the fact we ran more than most teams and had two good backs lugging the ball. Offensive scheming and play-calling could have been better too. I know CJ had a high ankle sprain last year but it also seemed like Hackett just didn't know how to create space for EJ. Gailey was much better at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 it would definitely be nice to see this line open some holes for the running backs on this team, especially on 3rd and 4th downs. to be able to push a d-line back when you really need to would be a wonderful thing. I think Marrone demands it ! That was his focus between him and Whaley . Dominate the short game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Once again, the biggest reason we lost games early in the year? Well, who was playing CB/S for us early in the year? Justin Rogers...who was only playing due to injury, and eventually had to be cut, because he was so bad. The biggest reason we started winning games later in the year, especially when the offense sputtered/we couldn't score TDs(ahem, Miami game)? Well, who was playing CB/S for us later in the year? Gilmore returned, so did Byrd, McLuvin got healthy, Robey learned on the job, and Aaron Williams was allowed to go back to playing SS instead of CB, and he developed nicely. Thus, we learned the "what happens when you start bad CB/Ss?" lesson the hard way last year. (Some of us didn't need the lesson, some of us did.) Last year should permanently end the debate as to whether DBs are less important than O lineman. I don't expect any Bills fan, on this board or anywhere, to require remedial training on this concept, given last year's object lesson. You can have different levels of O line, and it may or may not matter. But, if you have anything sort of a good secondary, it absolutely will matter, and it will cost you the game. Every. Single. Time. This is the state of NFL football in 2014. Perhaps we should ask Seattle if their O line is more important to them, and more integral to them winning, than their defensive backfield? Perhaps we should ask Peyton Manning if his O line is the reason they got blown out? EJ and the offensive line may/may not be fine. But, if we are playing from behind every game, because we can't cover anyone, like last year, then the O line simply won't matter. Why? If we are pass blocking every single down, because we are throwing to catch up every single down, they will wear down, regardless of who is playing. 5 all pro O lineman can't pass block for an entire game without losing performance. If we are once again passing from behind this year? EJ won't matter. Nothing will matter. In 2014, job #1 is stopping the other team's passing attack. That's where they've invested all their top assets, that's their strength. If you can minimize their strength, and turn those assets into a waste? You will win. Period. Sammy Watkins et al are fine weapons to add to EJ's aresenal, but, I guarantee you the 2 DBs we've added, plus a healthy Gilmore and McLuvin, will help him as least as much, if not more than the play of the O line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_tull Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 I think Marrone demands it ! That was his focus between him and Whaley . Dominate the short game Yeah, but with whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_tull Posted July 27, 2014 Author Share Posted July 27, 2014 Once again, the biggest reason we lost games early in the year? Well, who was playing CB/S for us early in the year? Justin Rogers...who was only playing due to injury, and eventually had to be cut, because he was so bad. The biggest reason we started winning games later in the year, especially when the offense sputtered/we couldn't score TDs(ahem, Miami game)? Well, who was playing CB/S for us later in the year? Gilmore returned, so did Byrd, McLuvin got healthy, Robey learned on the job, and Aaron Williams was allowed to go back to playing SS instead of CB, and he developed nicely. Thus, we learned the "what happens when you start bad CB/Ss?" lesson the hard way last year. (Some of us didn't need the lesson, some of us did.) Last year should permanently end the debate as to whether DBs are less important than O lineman. I don't expect any Bills fan, on this board or anywhere, to require remedial training on this concept, given last year's object lesson. You can have different levels of O line, and it may or may not matter. But, if you have anything sort of a good secondary, it absolutely will matter, and it will cost you the game. Every. Single. Time. This is the state of NFL football in 2014. Perhaps we should ask Seattle if their O line is more important to them, and more integral to them winning, than their defensive backfield? Perhaps we should ask Peyton Manning if his O line is the reason they got blown out? EJ and the offensive line may/may not be fine. But, if we are playing from behind every game, because we can't cover anyone, like last year, then the O line simply won't matter. Why? If we are pass blocking every single down, because we are throwing to catch up every single down, they will wear down, regardless of who is playing. 5 all pro O lineman can't pass block for an entire game without losing performance. If we are once again passing from behind this year? EJ won't matter. Nothing will matter. In 2014, job #1 is stopping the other team's passing attack. That's where they've invested all their top assets, that's their strength. If you can minimize their strength, and turn those assets into a waste? You will win. Period. Sammy Watkins et al are fine weapons to add to EJ's aresenal, but, I guarantee you the 2 DBs we've added, plus a healthy Gilmore and McLuvin, will help him as least as much, if not more than the play of the O line. I don't necessarily disagree with this and when the Bills secondary is / was healthy they have shown that the team can be much more competitive. The secondary no longer becomes the weakest area on the team. However for the offense to succeed, and for the team to compete with the best in the league, an improved run blocking OL is mandatory. You will not compete at a higher level without it. The OL (when healthy) is the weakest area of the starting 22. There were times when the defense put them in a position to win but they couldn't get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Once again, the biggest reason we lost games early in the year? Well, who was playing CB/S for us early in the year? Justin Rogers...who was only playing due to injury, and eventually had to be cut, because he was so bad. The biggest reason we started winning games later in the year, especially when the offense sputtered/we couldn't score TDs(ahem, Miami game)? Well, who was playing CB/S for us later in the year? Gilmore returned, so did Byrd, McLuvin got healthy, Robey learned on the job, and Aaron Williams was allowed to go back to playing SS instead of CB, and he developed nicely. Thus, we learned the "what happens when you start bad CB/Ss?" lesson the hard way last year. (Some of us didn't need the lesson, some of us did.) Last year should permanently end the debate as to whether DBs are less important than O lineman. I don't expect any Bills fan, on this board or anywhere, to require remedial training on this concept, given last year's object lesson. You can have different levels of O line, and it may or may not matter. But, if you have anything sort of a good secondary, it absolutely will matter, and it will cost you the game. Every. Single. Time. This is the state of NFL football in 2014. Perhaps we should ask Seattle if their O line is more important to them, and more integral to them winning, than their defensive backfield? Perhaps we should ask Peyton Manning if his O line is the reason they got blown out? EJ and the offensive line may/may not be fine. But, if we are playing from behind every game, because we can't cover anyone, like last year, then the O line simply won't matter. Why? If we are pass blocking every single down, because we are throwing to catch up every single down, they will wear down, regardless of who is playing. 5 all pro O lineman can't pass block for an entire game without losing performance. If we are once again passing from behind this year? EJ won't matter. Nothing will matter. In 2014, job #1 is stopping the other team's passing attack. That's where they've invested all their top assets, that's their strength. If you can minimize their strength, and turn those assets into a waste? You will win. Period. Sammy Watkins et al are fine weapons to add to EJ's aresenal, but, I guarantee you the 2 DBs we've added, plus a healthy Gilmore and McLuvin, will help him as least as much, if not more than the play of the O line. The bills were still losing after all their best players returned to the secondary. They won 3 in the first half of the year 3 in the back half... The facts don't fit the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 (edited) The bills were still losing after all their best players returned to the secondary. They won 3 in the first half of the year 3 in the back half... The facts don't fit the story. Facts? Please. Watch the games. And, this contex is in terms of "EJ being OK". How many of the games you're referring to did EJ start? Go back and watch the Cinncinnati game from last year. This was the turning point. I was there and my killer seats allowed me to see this up close and personal. Case in point. The secondary started the game horribly. It was the Gilmore, "don't touch my club hand/1st quarter/death by screen pass" game. As per my exact description above, they took an early lead, and that lead got bigger because we couldn't stop their passing. Then, as the game went on, the secondary got their feet under them, they started making plays. Gilmore got better by the series. Suddenly they stopped scoring, and we came back. Why? Because we stopped their O from making plays, which allowed our O more chances. With those extra chances, it went into OT. No way we come back if the secondary doesn't fix itself. Off hand, IIRC, I believe this is also the game where Robey took over for Rogers and/or Williams was moved to CB to take over. Meanwhile, the entire game, the O line didn't play any worse, or any better. The O line's play was practically irrelevant, in terms of "difference in the game". No. The main difference was the play of the secondary. Now, watch the Miami game. This was the point where the secondary hit top level performance. Miami literally couldn't throw the ball to anyone, because they were covered, and/or the #1 and #2 guys were covered, which, in terms of Tannehill, might as well mean we are playing with 20 guys in the backfield. This lead to sack after sack, and picks. Watch the games. Please spare the me the "facts". Edited July 27, 2014 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yeah, but with whom? Getting guys like Seantrel and cyrus and Cyril and even C Williamses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 The offensive line improves significantly in run blocking and downfield penetration. While pass protection was OK, run blocking was horrid when it mattered last season. Sure the stats show decent run production but digging a little deeper it seems as most teams gave our run offense a bend but don't break attitude. Consider- 3rd down conversion - 29th 4th down conversion- 29th Red zone TDs- 29th. Our line could not penetrate well enough to get those crucial short yard conversions. Watching the games last season I dreaded the 3rd and short, 4th and short plays. They almost always failed as indicated by the above stats. It also seemed like a high amount of 3rd and long plays as well. When you can't get run penetration on first and second downs, good defenses will eat you for lunch on those 3rd and long plays. Especially against young QBs and receivers that have a hard time getting seperation. Key to the season remains the OL. So far in camp it is off to a rocky start. I'm hoping that Cyrus can truly make a contribution this season although he is now playing on the second team. Strangely though, neither Spiller nor Brown have been or are any good on 3rd downs and Jacksons aging like a fine wine. I don't see any reason why this will improve. Dixon ain't gonna get it done. We have no 3rd-down RB after Jackson, who can't be counted on for a full season, not on every play like that anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickelCity Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I actually think this season is less dependent on EJ, and more on our OLine + stopping the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jethro_tull Posted July 28, 2014 Author Share Posted July 28, 2014 (edited) OK, things just became a little rosier with the news that cordy glenn will be ready for the opener and seantrel henderson is impressing in camp. Edited July 28, 2014 by jethro_tull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papazoid Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 EJ and the Offense will be OK, IF- you get 3 more quality O-lineman and one more TE. seeing as that's not happening, we are in trouble. cody is a stud. soon to be elite. eric wood is above average. the rest of the guys are below average, including chandler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swnybillsfan Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Getting guys like Seantrel and cyrus and Cyril and even C Williamses. i am really expecting some nice things from this group. throw in urbik and pears as well, because these guys should all be pushing the hell out of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxy312 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 IF....the offense scores more than the opposing offense OR the defense allows less points than the opposing defense. There....question answered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdand12 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 i am really expecting some nice things from this group. throw in urbik and pears as well, because these guys should all be pushing the hell out of each other. My thinking too. The group will improve all around. I think the O line is getting coached pretty hard by Marrone to succeed in the trenches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent H Jr Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 IF....the offense scores more than the opposing offense OR the defense allows less points than the opposing defense. There....question answered. ..hey! I like.your.answer better, because it is basedd in whole units and not on a +/- player rank... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewildrabbit Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 The offensive line improves significantly in run blocking and downfield penetration. While pass protection was OK, run blocking was horrid when it mattered last season. Sure the stats show decent run production but digging a little deeper it seems as most teams gave our run offense a bend but don't break attitude. Consider- 3rd down conversion - 29th 4th down conversion- 29th Red zone TDs- 29th. Our line could not penetrate well enough to get those crucial short yard conversions. Watching the games last season I dreaded the 3rd and short, 4th and short plays. They almost always failed as indicated by the above stats. It also seemed like a high amount of 3rd and long plays as well. When you can't get run penetration on first and second downs, good defenses will eat you for lunch on those 3rd and long plays. Especially against young QBs and receivers that have a hard time getting seperation. Key to the season remains the OL. So far in camp it is off to a rocky start. I'm hoping that Cyrus can truly make a contribution this season although he is now playing on the second team. I agree ...to a point. My take is this up coming season is equally dependent on the Bills OC configuring a run game a bit more complex then running up the middle 70+% of the time. All that rushing, and run plays last season didn't really amount to much in terms of first downs and wins. Then he also needs to make certain that hurry up offense is staying on the field and moving the chains rather then 3 downs, and a punt. EJ was under the gun in third, and long way to often because the run game failed to make yards, which you alluded to. The Bills were also 31st in first down percentage, and 25th in three downs and out percentage. Because the Bills were so bad at staying on the field to finish drives. it also hurt the defense from being on the field so much. Recently HC Doug Marrone has expressed great frustration with his line, and stated such. On day six the Bills line gave up 8 sacks in 17 plays is probably why, and that wasn't just against the Bills first string D. Things should get better once LT Cordy Glenn returns to practice. The entire team needs to do better this upcoming season. Lets hope they get it together! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 6 loses where you put up 20 or better, defense gave up 20 or more 15 of 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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