Don't drive anywhere with cash or Uncle Sam will seize it

[Fingon]

http://www.newyorker...013/08/12/taken

 

In general, you needn’t be found guilty to have your assets claimed by law enforcement; in some states, suspicion on a par with “probable cause” is sufficient. Nor must you be charged with a crime, or even be accused of one. Unlike criminal forfeiture, which requires that a person be convicted of an offense before his or her property is confiscated, civil forfeiture amounts to a lawsuit filed directly against a possession, regardless of its owner’s guilt or innocence.

One result is the rise of improbable case names such as United States v. One Pearl Necklace and United States v. Approximately 64,695 Pounds of Shark Fins. (Jennifer Boatright and Ron Henderson’s forfeiture was slugged State of Texas v. $6,037.) “The protections our Constitution usually affords are out the window,” Louis Rulli, a clinical law professor at the University of Pennsylvania and a leading forfeiture expert, observes. A piece of property does not share the rights of a person. There’s no right to an attorney and, in most states, no presumption of innocence. Owners who wish to contest often find that the cost of hiring a lawyer far exceeds the value of their seized goods. Washington, D.C., charges up to twenty-five hundred dollars simply for the right to challenge a police seizure in court, which can take months or even years to resolve.

 

 

From the ACLU settlement:

 

The ACLU settled a class-action suit, pending court approval, against officials in Tenaha and Shelby County, where it is estimated police seized $3 million between 2006 and 2008 in at least 140 cases. Police officers routinely pulled over motorists in the vicinity of Tenaha without any legal justification, asked if they were carrying cash and, if they were, ordered them to sign over the cash to the city or face charges of money laundering or other serious crimes.

Almost all of the stops involved Black and Latino drivers. None of the plaintiffs in the case were ever arrested or charged with a crime. The seized assets were used to enrich the defendants’ offices and themselves.

 

https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/aclu-announces-settlement-highway-robbery-cases-texas

[Bob in Mich]

This is one of those injustices that the average citizen thinks is probably OK. Certainly, the police are doing their job properly and the person was very likely guilty, right?

 

Maybe, but eliminating the need for charges and evidence and courts and hearings pretty much means you put total faith in the officer's opinion and integrity. Do you trust all officers to always do the right thing in every stop? I don't.

 

I said it elsewhere, force-record all police-citizen encounters by having cameras on the officers' vest. I also think that the police should have to publicly post and justify all seizures. In other words, put into writing exactly what was taken, who took it, and why that was the appropriate course of action. Today there is no accountability

Edited July 25, 2014 by Bob in Mich

[KD in CA]

This is one of those injustices that the average citizen thinks is probably OK. Certainly, the police are doing their job properly and the person was very likely guilty, right?

 

Maybe, but eliminating the need for charges and evidence and courts and hearings pretty much means you put total faith in the officer's opinion and integrity. Do you trust all officers to always do the right thing in every stop? I don't.

 

I said it elsewhere, force-record all police-citizen encounters by having cameras on the officers' vest. I also think that the police should have to publicly post and justify all seizures. In other words, put into writing exactly what was taken, who took it, and why that was the appropriate course of action. Today there is no accountability

 

Yeah, rouge cops suck, but the expense of doing that for the minimal benefit is not anywhere close to justified. If you're that concerned about accountability, how about looking for some accountability in Washington? I bet the taxpayer cash the Administration seized to give to politically connected buddies at Solyndra exceeds by many times the sum total of illegal seizures by local cops during the past six years.

[3rdnlng]

Yeah, rouge cops suck, but the expense of doing that for the minimal benefit is not anywhere close to justified. If you're that concerned about accountability, how about looking for some accountability in Washington? I bet the taxpayer cash the Administration seized to give to politically connected buddies at Solyndra exceeds by many times the sum total of illegal seizures by local cops during the past six years.

 

Which was nothing compared to Obama's Grand Theft Auto Company deal he pulled off for the benefit of the UAW pensions.

[Alaska Darin]

Another of the byproducts of government policy. Bad foreign policy and bad domestic policy have given us the trickle down effect of bad seizure policy. Congrats, partisans. Keep it up!

[FireChan]

 

 

Yeah, rouge cops suck, but the expense of doing that for the minimal benefit is not anywhere close to justified. If you're that concerned about accountability, how about looking for some accountability in Washington? I bet the taxpayer cash the Administration seized to give to politically connected buddies at Solyndra exceeds by many times the sum total of illegal seizures by local cops during the past six years.

 

I prefer blue cops, myself.

[DC Tom]

This is one of those injustices that the average citizen thinks is probably OK. Certainly, the police are doing their job properly and the person was very likely guilty, right?

 

Maybe, but eliminating the need for charges and evidence and courts and hearings pretty much means you put total faith in the officer's opinion and integrity. Do you trust all officers to always do the right thing in every stop? I don't.

 

I said it elsewhere, force-record all police-citizen encounters by having cameras on the officers' vest. I also think that the police should have to publicly post and justify all seizures. In other words, put into writing exactly what was taken, who took it, and why that was the appropriate course of action. Today there is no accountability

 

Way to miss the point. Civil forfeiture has nothing to do with the individual officers' integrity. It's a systemic abuse of a legal principle that's shaky to begin with, culminating in an organized, "legal" shakedown of citizens for the sole purpose of making up budget "deficits."

 

Enforcing officer honesty won't do a damn thing to change that. Filming them certainly won't, given that the very examples quoted in the New Yorker article were traffic stops that would already have been captured on dashboard cameras.

[TakeYouToTasker]

 

 

Yeah, rouge cops suck, but the expense of doing that for the minimal benefit is not anywhere close to justified. If you're that concerned about accountability, how about looking for some accountability in Washington? I bet the taxpayer cash the Administration seized to give to politically connected buddies at Solyndra exceeds by many times the sum total of illegal seizures by local cops during the past six years.

You have extraordinary faith in the executive branch of government.

 

You're a defender of RICO laws?

 

Dyed in the Wool Republicans are as useless as their Democratic counterparts.

 

 

 

Way to miss the point. Civil forfeiture has nothing to do with the individual officers' integrity. It's a systemic abuse of a legal principle that's shaky to begin with, culminating in an organized, "legal" shakedown of citizens for the sole purpose of making up budget "deficits."

 

Enforcing officer honesty won't do a damn thing to change that. Filming them certainly won't, given that the very examples quoted in the New Yorker article were traffic stops that would already have been captured on dashboard cameras.

Correct.

[Bob in Mich]

Without a doubt, the system of civil forfeiture is terribly flawed. It is unAmerican to be punished without due process and that is exactly what we see happening.

 

In my view though, accountability of the officers' actions are key. The entire issue is 'why is it justified to seize?' The police are claiming 'probable cause'. That means something happened during the stop to raise suspicion. What was the probable cause that allowed the officer to take the money or property? Today, it is the word of the officer's view of the events versus the word of the accused and that is a problem

Edited July 26, 2014 by Bob in Mich

[DC Tom]

Without a doubt, the system of civil forfeiture is terribly flawed. It is unAmerican to be punished without due process and that is exactly what we see happening.

 

In my view though, accountability of the officers' actions are key. The entire issue is 'why is it justified to seize?' The police are claiming 'probable cause'. That means something happened during the stop to raise suspicion. What was the probable cause that allowed the officer to take the money or property? Today, it is the word of the officer's view of the events versus the word of the accused and that is a problem

 

In your view, you think the police are accountable to the people they're arresting, and not the government and the law that encourages civil forfeiture?

 

You're an idiot.

[Bob in Mich]

Tom, it is a shame you can't converse without insults. When you step beyond jokes you sort of cross a line

 

 

On another note, even though a bit dated I found this an interesting view that hits on several points. (Apologies that the LEAP links do not seem to work)

 

 

How Drug Cops Go Bad

 

We shouldn't be surprised when the police officers we ask to break the laws they enforce turn corrupt.

 

 

Radley Balko | March 21, 2011

 

http://reason.com/ar...rug-cops-go-bad

 

 

 

 

Radley Balko is a senior editor at Reason magazine.

 

If you browse the website of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP), you will notice a conspicuous theme: The war on drugs is corrupting America's cops.

 

(see link)

 

Michael A. Komorn

 

Attorney and Counselor

Edited July 26, 2014 by Bob in Mich

[Bob in Mich]

And this story of a Michigan State Police Lieutenants seizing whatever the hell they wanted...until caught on recording, shows why the actions of the individual officers are important. It is accountability.

 

 

Corruption probe: Michigan State Police narcotics officers accused of stealing 22 cell phones, 30 designer purses, TVs, jewelry, motorcycles

Published: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 2:25 PM Updated: Thursday, February 24, 2011, 6:29 AM

By Julie Hoogland | The Grand Rapids Press

 

http://www.mlive.com...higan_stat.html

 

LANSING -- Two Michigan State Police lieutenants are facing corruption charges, accused of running a criminal enterprise out of the Monroe state police narcotics investigations office, the state attorney general and state police director announced today.

 

Lt. Luke Davis, 48, of Monroe and Lt. Emmanuel Riopelle, 42, of Grosse Ile are accused of running a scheme to systematically embezzle property and money seized from suspects between March 2006 and December 2008.

 

An MSP search of Davis' home on Dec. 4, 2008 revealed stolen property, as well as vicodin, oxycotin, steroids, (continued at link)

Edited July 26, 2014 by Bob in Mich

[3rdnlng]

Bob in Michigan--get a publisher, no one is interested in reading novels here.

[Bob in Mich]

Too challenging of a read? My apologies.

[3rdnlng]

Too challenging of a read? My apologies.

 

No, post the link, then post a snippet of the article. Draw someone into your post, rather than trying to jam it down their throat.

[4merper4mer]

Too challenging of a read? My apologies.

 

I stopped reading it when the first three bullet points made me realize you just don't want your stash taken.

[Bob in Mich]

I will try to remember that some here seem to have reading problems and lots of words and letters seem to upset them. Again, I apologize for stepping outside the norm. I will try to remember the link thing.

 

Really though 3rd, how difficult is it to NOT read an article if you are not interested?

 

And 'performer', attempting to intellectually engage with you is not worthwhile. Out

[FireChan]

I will try to remember that some here seem to have reading problems and lots of words and letters seem to upset them. Again, I apologize for stepping outside the norm. I will try to remember the link thing.

 

Really though 3rd, how difficult is it to NOT read an article if you are not interested?

 

And 'performer', attempting to intellectually engage with you is not worthwhile. Out

 

I gotta say, I'm digging this passive aggressive act. You really know your stuff.

[Bob in Mich]

I gotta say, I'm digging this passive aggressive act. You really know your stuff.

 

Thanks Chano. You know how much that means to me coming from you.

 

It is difficult not to fire back when insulted. I guess it is the safety of the internet that makes people talk so aggressively and so quickly call people names. I expect some of these people wouldn't still be alive if they typically responded in person like they do on-line.

 

Most board posters are there to exchange ideas. Calling someone an idiot or the like typically cuts off the idea exchange and starts the insult exchange. I guess that is good if the insult exchange is really what you're after.

[KD in CA]

You have extraordinary faith in the executive branch of government.

 

You're a defender of RICO laws?

 

Dyed in the Wool Republicans are as useless as their Democratic counterparts.

I'm not following this response or how you got that I have any faith in the executive branch (or any branch) of government from my statement that Bob's suggestion was essentially meaningless compared to the scale of abuse in Washington.

 

I prefer blue cops, myself.

D'oh!