Will the Wilson trust give a stay at home discount?

[May Day 10]

I think some of the nonsense is being floated by the Erie county crowd. If people realized the home town discount can't be the case, there'd more emphasis on finding a Niagara falls site as a way to tap into a higher expected revenue stream to support a more competitive bid. The erie county crowd see niagara Falls same as move totally out of the area (like LA or Toronto move).

 

thats not why. NF is closer for me...

 

 

NF, at least as presented in the City of NF is an insane and impossible idea. The numerous reasons NF is ridiculous have been stated time after time and somehow a couple people still think its a good idea.

 

The State of NY isnt going to pour multiple billions of dollars to crowbar a stadium there with the hope new ownership could draw a few more people from Toronto. Niagara County and the City of NF certainly bring nothing to the table. Just thinking about it is a waste of time.

[truth on hold]

 

 

thats not why. NF is closer for me...

 

 

NF, at least as presented in the City of NF is an insane and impossible idea. The numerous reasons NF is ridiculous have been stated time after time and somehow a couple people still think its a good idea.

 

The State of NY isnt going to pour multiple billions of dollars to crowbar a stadium there with the hope new ownership could draw a few more people from Toronto. Niagara County and the City of NF certainly bring nothing to the table. Just thinking about it is a waste of time.

I didn't say you I'm speaking more generally, some things in the media and some of the more aggressive posters here (one of whom admitted he works for Erie county).

 

Im not going to debate the NF vs Buffalo site, that's been done before, and its nothing like the black and white argument you make it. Buffalo at only a quarter million people is only the 73rd largest city in the US....not a chance in heck a team gets awarded there if the league started tomorrow. A viable strategy to keep the team in WNY is to regionalize it .... This is nothing new. And NF,NY is a credible alternative and perhaps only one to keep it here and on our side of the border. But again to the Erie country crowd that might as well be LA

[May Day 10]

I'm curious what makes you think this? He always spent money on players, was one of the most generous guys to charities, and keep the Bills in Buffalo when the area was dying.

 

It just felt like over the final decade, they were not in it to take any real financial risk to seek out reward. Didnt pay for top management personnel/coaches, player facilities were/are fairly mediocre, as I mentioned outsourcing Toronto games, every time they made changes, it was basically just a reshuffling of the same management staff. It just felt like Mr. Wilson was running out the clock so his heirs can cash in on his success. The results on the field year to year speaks loudly as well. As far as keeping the team here... at least in old age, I dont see him moving the team and paying all the fees, stadium, etc as he was making a nice profit year to year and the team would make a killing when it sold regardless.

 

 

Not necessarily making a sweeping judgement or anything. It is/was Mr Wilson's team to do as he pleased. What gives me a bit of hope is his historic stance against relocation.

 

 

"I would think the max out" was bad wording on my part. I just dont think they will leave a significant amount of money on the table.

 

 

We will see.

Edited June 26, 2014 by May Day 10

[thebandit27]

I think some of the nonsense is being floated by the Erie county crowd. If people realized the home town discount can't be the case, there'd more emphasis on finding a Niagara falls site as a way to tap into a higher expected revenue stream to support a more competitive bid. The erie county crowd see niagara Falls same as move totally out of the area (like LA or Toronto move), and they're trying to equally undermine it.

 

I'm not sure what "nonsense" you're referring to; I can only say that my posts about "fiduciary duty" and "hometown discounts" are based upon the distinct possibility that the trust does NOT have to simply accept the highest bid--and that there may in fact be provisions that effectively preclude the de facto number from being the only consideration.

 

Simply dismissing that as a "pipe dream" is misguided.

[thebandit27]

Article that supports the notion that "fiduciary duty" does not necessarily mean "highest bid":

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/sports/bills-nfl/how-to-buy-and-sell-an-nfl-team-20140511

 

The seller is the Wilson trust. The team’s silent strategy – they have not even publicly acknowledged who sits on the trust, although it is all but certain that Ralph Wilson’s widow, Mary, is among the four trustees – has left many questions.

For instance, what are the trustees’ fiduciary responsibilities?

Is it to get the highest price for the team, or did Ralph Wilson’s last will and testament state any other objectives?

Experts on the outside say they don’t know, but they point to other sports team sales – like the $660 million sale of the Boston Red Sox in 2002 – that did not go to the highest bidders.

 

.....

 

 

In the case of the Bills, there are some obvious differences from other NFL and pro sports team sales.

“The owner has passed away, so you have an executor of the estate making decisions and trying to tell what is best for the family. You don’t know if the fiduciary duty is the highest price possible, so how do you judge the valuation side? When you have a seller who is alive they can say, ‘This is what I want,’ ” said the person involved in NFL team sales.

 

The point here being that the terms of the trust may, in fact, account for the possibility of relocation (or lack thereof) as part of the valuation of a bid.

[C.Biscuit97]

It just felt like over the final decade, they were not in it to take any real financial risk to seek out reward. Didnt pay for top management personnel/coaches, player facilities were/are fairly mediocre, as I mentioned outsourcing Toronto games, every time they made changes, it was basically just a reshuffling of the same management staff. It just felt like Mr. Wilson was running out the clock so his heirs can cash in on his success. The results on the field year to year speaks loudly as well. As far as keeping the team here... at least in old age, I dont see him moving the team and paying all the fees, stadium, etc as he was making a nice profit year to year and the team would make a killing when it sold regardless.

 

 

Not necessarily making a sweeping judgement or anything. It is/was Mr Wilson's team to do as he pleased. What gives me a bit of hope is his historic stance against relocation.

 

 

"I would think the max out" was bad wording on my part. I just dont think they will leave a significant amount of money on the table.

 

 

We will see.

 

Fair enough. Personally, I think if he was interesting in maxing out, he would have moved the team decades against instead of remaining in one of the worst economies in the country. He also would have raised ticket prices instead of having them less than half of other teams.

 

I guess we'll find out in a few months.

[Hplarrm]

 

 

Same Kelly. If the bid is significantly higher, say goodbye to the Bills. If they are relatively close, then yes. If Pegula (my hope) is close to a Toronto bid or a LA bid, then I see Pegula winning out. The bigger question with all of this wrangling is when push comes to shove, will the county and state pony up a portion for the new stadium. If yes, then the Bills will stay in Buffalo.

Your point makes sense to me that the highest bid should be accepted, but this still leaves open the judgment of higher over what timeline.

 

Let's say that a bid comes in which is clearly demonstrably higher than the other bids. Let's say it totals up as a certified offer which the bidder has clear ownership of the resources to pay the Wilson estate $1.35 billion while the other bids from Pegula, the John Bon Jovi team or whomever really max out at paying the Wilson estate $1.25 billion.

 

It us clear who the high bidder is.

 

OK

 

Lets say though that the high bidder has this cash/resources on hand and will clearly have them in the future because he is some sultan or Imam from Qatar or Saudi Arabia. Lets say this guy is a demonstrable relative of Osana bin Laden, has clear fiscal connections to having supported some terrorist group, madrassa schools which advocate Sharia law and/or despite the fact this rich guy was educated at the London School of Economics it is his ongoing need to demonstrate he was not contaminated by Western thinking that despite his personal affection for Saville Row suits he is publicly on record for supporting extremists.

 

Sorry, it does not matter that his bid clearly delivers the maximum bid for Ralph's estate so Mary Wilson can leave the NFL behind her while she does something else.

 

The highest bid for Mary right now is not the deciding factor in whether this highest bid is accepted. It is clear that the true source of assets, the TV nets that pay billions to the NFL will not look forward to trying to get eyeballs to watch the new NFL partially sponsored by Al Jazerra.

 

Other things matter besides what produces the highest real bid for the Wilson estate right now!

[KDIGGZ]

While your quote is sufficiently cheeky, it's also ignorant. It's not about giving a "discount" or "devaluing" their inheritance...it's about honoring their commitment as trustees.

 

It has nothing to do with my opinion, but all the same I appreciate your desire to take a shot at me, however misguided it may be.

It was a shot at humor, no personal shot intended. Nobody knows but if we waited until we knew all of the facts then this board would be boring. There would be nothing to talk about. We all throw in our two cents. My two cents is most often on the side of reason. What outcome is more likely in this scenario? Clearly any kind of clause to sell to only someone intent on keeping the team in Buffalo is a long shot at best and completely devalues the inheritance of his heirs. Ain't gonna happen. If anything in the Will mentioned that then they wouldn't be sending brochures to the out of town interested parties. This is just common sense

[thebandit27]

It was a shot at humor, no personal shot intended. Nobody knows but if we waited until we knew all of the facts then this board would be boring. There would be nothing to talk about. We all throw in our two cents. My two cents is most often on the side of reason. What outcome is more likely in this scenario? Clearly any kind of clause to sell to only someone intent on keeping the team in Buffalo is a long shot at best and completely devalues the inheritance of his heirs. Ain't gonna happen. If anything in the Will mentioned that then they wouldn't be sending brochures to the out of town interested parties. This is just common sense

 

My apologies for not sensing the humor.

[seq004]

I'm not saying he was the most successful owner in terms of championships, however he was committed to keeping the Bills in Buffalo.

Edited June 26, 2014 by seq004

[TheFunPolice]

Today's NHL news should remind us all of one important factor: when given the opportunity the powers that be will ALWAYS screw Buffalo sports teams. It's like crack to them.

Edited June 27, 2014 by TheFunPolice

[CodeMonkey]

Today's NHL news should remind us all of one important factor: when given the opportunity the powers that be will ALWAYS screw Buffalo sports teams. It's like crack to them.

What news was that? I must have missed it.

[TheFunPolice]

What news was that? I must have missed it.

 

The NHL decided to change the draft lottery system right before one of the most loaded drafts in a generation so that the Sabres would have less of a chance of getting one of the two superstar players coming out.

[Hplarrm]

Another way to look at this which strikes me as legit is not whether the Wilson estate trust at the behest of other NFL teams would give a discount to packages pointing toward remaining in Buffalo but instead will they build in the penalty which some outside of town packages bring with them.

 

This only makes sense in that if I was the NFL I want a showing from any potential future partners of mine that the Wilson state sells to that they are gonna have the scratch to pay over a billion to the Wilson's but after undergoing this heavy financial load that they are also gonna be able to produce the 10s of millions of dollars needed to pay the league for moving the team.

 

Further, if I am the NFL, I either simply veto or demand some additional money be put up or made available for some of the potential owners.

 

For example, if the highest bidder is some one with the money to make an offer but it potentially hurts my business to have this new "partner" forced upon me I veto this deal.

 

Thus, some middleeastern oil guy from Qatar may have enough money to be the highest bidder but I do not want someone with connections to middle eastern terrorists to be my partner.

 

Also, same as when the NFLPA simply vetoed Rush Limbaugh as part of an owner package bidding for the Rams because of his race based comments on Donovan McNabb. Also veto.

 

There are some other yahoos I might consider, but I want them to make a bid for the Bills so high as to justify the Wilson estate making them my new partner. Donald Trump for example, has demonstrated with his willingness to sue his partners in the USFL to be a potentially contentious partner. If I am the NFL I have to under contractual agreement give 75% approval for any sale. If it is the Donald I wanna get assurances from him he is not gonna be litigious against his partners or I demand he put up enough cash straight out to us current owners that it is worthwhile to take on as a partner.

 

In addition his past connections to organized gambling and my deep desire not to have any rep connecting the NFL with gambling makes me leery and at least want extra cash commit.

 

Likewise with the Jacobs if they want in they need to pay extra bucks for me to allow it.

 

Anyone who moves the team will have to make a showing of having the extra cash needed to convince me to let them in.

 

Any new owner that wants to move like will have to put up more cash and also deal with 5-7 ears of bad publicity as the Bills team decides to move and WNY whines and laments. So the question is not whether the in Buffalo team gets a break but how much more must a team that is going to leave is willing to pay.

 

 

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

. . . The point here being that the terms of the trust may, in fact, account for the possibility of relocation (or lack thereof) as part of the valuation of a bid.

Hey Bandit:

 

This isn't my brother Darryl's main area of incompetence, but he tells me that because Ralph lived in Michigan (and reportedly named Littman and another Michigan lawyer as 2 of the 4 trustees), Ralph's trust is probably governed by Michigan law.

 

FWIW, here's a Michigan law firm's online description of some of the duties of a trustee of an irrevocable trust under Michigan law. Some of it is actually readable - - Darryl culled out a few sentences of interest, but read the rest of the link if you want to know more:

 

http://www.macombcriminalattorney.com/duties-of-trustee

 

Blood relationships do not exempt the trustee from the legal responsibilities, and it is not unusual for a child or children to sue a parent they feel has mismanaged a trust.

 

* * * * * * *

The Trustee's Legal Obligations

 

1. Administer the trust in accordance with the trust's provisions.

2. Administer the trust solely for the benefit of the beneficiaries or beneficiary of the trust.

3. Deal impartially with the beneficiaries if there are two or more. . . .

 

[see link for 4 -10.]

 

Darryl thinks we should hope that the trust document clearly spells out ways in which the trustees would NOT be required to sell the team to the highest bidder. If that isn't clearly spelled out, the trustees risk potentially huge liability if they somehow favor a local buyer over other potential bidders willing to pay more. Absent clear authorizing language in the trust document, if there is even a remote possibility that some beneficiary of the trust would later complain that the team should have been sold to some other bidder for a higher price, Darryl expects that Littman and the other Michigan lawyer (if reports that they are 2 of the 4 trustees are accurate) will veto any sale "discount" for a local bidder.

 

Unless some reporter/journalist/blogger can identify and locate a cooperative beneficiary willing to request and turn over a copy of the trust document, we may never know what the trust document says, if anything, about Ralph's objectives for the disposition of the team.

 

It won't matter what Mary wants if there is any ambiguity at all about whether the trust document allows a sale to someone other than the highest bidder.

 

And even if the trust selects a local bidder at a discount, seems to Darryl that the NFL could veto the sale if more than 1/4 of the other owners would prefer a different owner at a higher price.

 

Then again, Darryl's an incontinent moron, so take this with a grain of salsa.

Edited June 28, 2014 by ICanSleepWhenI'mDead

[thebandit27]

Hey Bandit:

 

This isn't my brother Darryl's main area of incompetence, but he tells me that because Ralph lived in Michigan (and reportedly named Littman and another Michigan lawyer as 2 of the 4 trustees), Ralph's trust is probably governed by Michigan law.

 

FWIW, here's a Michigan law firm's online description of some of the duties of a trustee of an irrevocable trust under Michigan law. Some of it is actually readable - - Darryl culled out a few sentences of interest, but read the rest of the link if you want to know more:

 

http://www.macombcriminalattorney.com/duties-of-trustee

 

 

 

Darryl thinks we should hope that the trust document clearly spells out ways in which the trustees would NOT be required to sell the team to the highest bidder. If that isn't clearly spelled out, the trustees risk potentially huge liability if they somehow favor a local buyer over other potential bidders willing to pay more. Absent clear authorizing language in the trust document, if there is even a remote possibility that some beneficiary of the trust would later complain that the team should have been sold to some other bidder for a higher price, Darryl expects that Littman and the other Michigan lawyer (if reports that they are 2 of the 4 trustees are accurate) will veto any sale "discount" for a local bidder.

 

Unless some reporter/journalist/blogger can identify and locate a cooperative beneficiary willing to request and turn over a copy of the trust document, we may never know what the trust document says, if anything, about Ralph's objectives for the disposition of the team.

 

It won't matter what Mary wants if there is any ambiguity at all about whether the trust document allows a sale to someone other than the highest bidder.

 

And even if the trust selects a local bidder at a discount, seems to Darryl that the NFL could veto the sale if more than 1/4 of the other owners would prefer a different owner at a higher price.

 

Then again, Darryl's an incontinent moron, so take this with a grain of salsa.

 

Good stuff; thank whichever Daryl that was for me!

 

Sounds like what I've heard is accurate based on that info...my semi-educated guess is that the terms of the trust place increases valuation on local bids, so we'll see...