BuffaloBill Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 The truth of the matter is that universally the rust belt city (and others) politicians have colluded with the public sector unions that keep them in office. The pensions for the union members have become unsubstainable. Even here you continue with two party rhetoric and shallow analysis of the issue. The Republicans are just as beholden to special interests as the Democrats. Not to mention you are looking at the issue according to its history not with a solutions minded view. Rather than pointing your finger at the Democrats how about offering up some ideas to move forward. Just using you pension example, the truth of the matter is that the solution will inevitably involve a combination of strongly reducing pension benefits, maybe ceasing new entrants into the plans and raising taxes to dig out of the mess they are in. These are realities that neither party had the balls to step up to. As a result we languish and go deeper into the sinkhole. Yes public pensions are a disaster. The same is true for many if not all of the plans held by unions. Cruise Google on the subject if you want a few laughs. Union held plans pension benefits are being cut drastically in many cases. The sad truth is that the average Sue or Joey union member that really doesn't care about the union is getting screwed. A very small percentage of the population votes even less in local elections. People are tacitly saying that the status quo is acceptable to them. If they want change bring new ideas to the table, hold politicians accountable and vote. If they do not difficult choices and decisions will not be made. If you look at reality most Americans act as though they love big government, say they hate it and refuse to pay the taxes necessary to pay for the government services they hold so dear. The Government is also seen as the piggy bank of last resort. Both parties use it this way and to their individual and mutual benefit. Back to the point of the thread. There are any of a number of cities with Buffalo being one that will have very difficult decisions in days ahead. They need to act smaller and governments need to shrink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Even here you continue with two party rhetoric and shallow analysis of the issue. The Republicans are just as beholden to special interests as the Democrats. Not to mention you are looking at the issue according to its history not with a solutions minded view. Rather than pointing your finger at the Democrats how about offering up some ideas to move forward. Just using you pension example, the truth of the matter is that the solution will inevitably involve a combination of strongly reducing pension benefits, maybe ceasing new entrants into the plans and raising taxes to dig out of the mess they are in. These are realities that neither party had the balls to step up to. As a result we languish and go deeper into the sinkhole. Yes public pensions are a disaster. The same is true for many if not all of the plans held by unions. Cruise Google on the subject if you want a few laughs. Union held plans pension benefits are being cut drastically in many cases. The sad truth is that the average Sue or Joey union member that really doesn't care about the union is getting screwed. A very small percentage of the population votes even less in local elections. People are tacitly saying that the status quo is acceptable to them. If they want change bring new ideas to the table, hold politicians accountable and vote. If they do not difficult choices and decisions will not be made. If you look at reality most Americans act as though they love big government, say they hate it and refuse to pay the taxes necessary to pay for the government services they hold so dear. The Government is also seen as the piggy bank of last resort. Both parties use it this way and to their individual and mutual benefit. Back to the point of the thread. There are any of a number of cities with Buffalo being one that will have very difficult decisions in days ahead. They need to act smaller and governments need to shrink. I can't disagree with you but this thread was about "Failing Cities And Their Common Denominator", not how to fix them. It is necessary to understand the problem first before realizing the solution. My contention is that all the big cities controlled by democrats are in dire financial shape due mainly to their incestuous relationship with public sector unions. I Googled "Cities with good finances" and the first page included Waterville, Sebring, Boerne, Fort Stockton, Cave City and Chelsea. Not exactly household names. I am having a hard time finding any large city with good finances and/or controlled by republicans. I am not praising republicans but I'm sure as hell condemning democrats for their malfeasance in running our large cities into the ground with their sack time with the unions and their ponzi schemes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I can't disagree with you but this thread was about "Failing Cities And Their Common Denominator", not how to fix them. It is necessary to understand the problem first before realizing the solution. My contention is that all the big cities controlled by democrats are in dire financial shape due mainly to their incestuous relationship with public sector unions. I Googled "Cities with good finances" and the first page included Waterville, Sebring, Boerne, Fort Stockton, Cave City and Chelsea. Not exactly household names. I am having a hard time finding any large city with good finances and/or controlled by republicans. I am not praising republicans but I'm sure as hell condemning democrats for their malfeasance in running our large cities into the ground with their sack time with the unions and their ponzi schemes. How about the common denominator being that both parties suboptomize according to their own special interest groups. My point though likely not well made is that we focus on the symptoms and not the root problems. Where we likely agree is that too many people, inclusive of groups like unions, leverage narrow interests through money given to either party. As a result our collective governments local on through to federal have a very screwed sense of what is philosophically right or wrong. Perhaps one could applaud the tea party for taking a stand on issues however they fail to recognize collateral damage created by their tactics. I say this not because I am a tea party supporter actually I detest much of their idiocy. I simply applaud the notion of trying to come to solutions over very tough issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 How about the common denominator being that both parties suboptomize according to their own special interest groups. My point though likely not well made is that we focus on the symptoms and not the root problems. Where we likely agree is that too many people, inclusive of groups like unions, leverage narrow interests through money given to either party. As a result our collective governments local on through to federal have a very screwed sense of what is philosophically right or wrong. Perhaps one could applaud the tea party for taking a stand on issues however they fail to recognize collateral damage created by their tactics. I say this not because I am a tea party supporter actually I detest much of their idiocy. I simply applaud the notion of trying to come to solutions over very tough issues. I agree that there isn't much difference between a democrat and a RINO as it pertains to self interest politics but what about Scott Walker or John Kasich? What is the common local influence on the republican office holders? Just what is it that you hate about the Tea Parties? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 I agree that there isn't much difference between a democrat and a RINO as it pertains to self interest politics but what about Scott Walker or John Kasich? What is the common local influence on the republican office holders? Just what is it that you hate about the Tea Parties? To your last question, I can agree with them relative to fiscal conservatism, reducing the size of government and setting the country on a path to balanced budgets. Where I differ is in their blind hold on the notion that taxes are not a part of the solution. I hate the concept of taxation as much as anyone but IMO Americans have gotten themselves hooked on the notion that the solution is either to borrow to close the gap or to believe we can cut our way to a balanced budget. Neither is correct and I believe it is high time we got honest about the situation. There is an argument to be made that maybe we should be in the range of cutting two dollars and raising one through taxes. Better yet, how about a three to one ratio. The longer we go on bickering about solutions that are blind to realities the further we go into debt to the Chinese. How long is this model sustainable? Finally, the tactics of the tea party have been reckless. Driving the country to the brink of default was stupid and gained little in the end. They could have achieved far more over the long run figuring out how to compromise but hold long term pressure. Their tactics are borne out of shortsightedness and a false sense of strength. They lost valuable momentum due to this. Finally, while there is not a tea party position on all issues their affinity to sometimes draw in narrow social interest issues hurts them and their overall cause. The government in my opinion does not exist to reform morality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drinkTHEkoolaid Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 To your last question, I can agree with them relative to fiscal conservatism, reducing the size of government and setting the country on a path to balanced budgets. Where I differ is in their blind hold on the notion that taxes are not a part of the solution. I hate the concept of taxation as much as anyone but IMO Americans have gotten themselves hooked on the notion that the solution is either to borrow to close the gap or to believe we can cut our way to a balanced budget. Neither is correct and I believe it is high time we got honest about the situation. There is an argument to be made that maybe we should be in the range of cutting two dollars and raising one through taxes. Better yet, how about a three to one ratio. The longer we go on bickering about solutions that are blind to realities the further we go into debt to the Chinese. How long is this model sustainable? Finally, the tactics of the tea party have been reckless. Driving the country to the brink of default was stupid and gained little in the end. They could have achieved far more over the long run figuring out how to compromise but hold long term pressure. Their tactics are borne out of shortsightedness and a false sense of strength. They lost valuable momentum due to this. Finally, while there is not a tea party position on all issues their affinity to sometimes draw in narrow social interest issues hurts them and their overall cause. The government in my opinion does not exist to reform morality. What are the tea party social issues that they take a stand on that you disagree with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Democrats?? Not just bad government policy. The Mid-Market area of SF was a mess. Recently they offered tax incentives (wow, what a great idea) to companies such as Twitter. Now it's becoming one of the hottest areas of the city. Guess how many of these jobs were government jobs? Ok, and Twitter would have chosen Detroit or Buffalo with the same tax incentive? Right... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 To your last question, I can agree with them relative to fiscal conservatism, reducing the size of government and setting the country on a path to balanced budgets. Where I differ is in their blind hold on the notion that taxes are not a part of the solution. I hate the concept of taxation as much as anyone but IMO Americans have gotten themselves hooked on the notion that the solution is either to borrow to close the gap or to believe we can cut our way to a balanced budget. Neither is correct and I believe it is high time we got honest about the situation. There is an argument to be made that maybe we should be in the range of cutting two dollars and raising one through taxes. Better yet, how about a three to one ratio. The longer we go on bickering about solutions that are blind to realities the further we go into debt to the Chinese. How long is this model sustainable? Finally, the tactics of the tea party have been reckless. Driving the country to the brink of default was stupid and gained little in the end. They could have achieved far more over the long run figuring out how to compromise but hold long term pressure. Their tactics are borne out of shortsightedness and a false sense of strength. They lost valuable momentum due to this. Finally, while there is not a tea party position on all issues their affinity to sometimes draw in narrow social interest issues hurts them and their overall cause. The government in my opinion does not exist to reform morality. Can you cite a narrow social issue that they have backed? In all of the charters that I've read from the numerous Tea Parties I've seen declarations that they are not about social issues. It is the liberals who try to stick social issues to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Back to the point of the thread. There are any of a number of cities with Buffalo being one that will have very difficult decisions in days ahead. They need to act smaller and governments need to shrink. How is that going to help the inner city kid struggling with poverty if his neighborhood gets even more dangerous because the police, fire and emergency responders are cut or his after school programs are gone? Smaller government will not bring the Erie Canal back to Buffalo, IMO. That's not a partisan point, its just reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PearlHowardman Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 American cities need more abortion-sterilization clinics and within 20 years there will be no more poverty, crime, etc. Know what I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 American cities need more abortion-sterilization clinics and within 20 years there will be no more poverty, crime, etc. Know what I mean? Go troll your own thread. Besides, the troll position in this thread is already taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim in Anchorage Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Best thing to do is for everyone to ignore him. Go troll your own thread. Besides, the troll position in this thread is already taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 More black babies were aborted last year in New York City than were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 What are the tea party social issues that they take a stand on that you disagree with? Read what I said, they do not hold specific social positions but they draw people who do. It muddies the picture. Can you cite a narrow social issue that they have backed? In all of the charters that I've read from the numerous Tea Parties I've seen declarations that they are not about social issues. It is the liberals who try to stick social issues to them. Can you cite anything constructive the tea party has accomplished? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Read what I said, they do not hold specific social positions but they draw people who do. It muddies the picture. Can you cite anything constructive the tea party has accomplished? Brought real fiscal issues to the podium, and forced them into the discussion. Additionally they've exposed liberal Republicans, and are forcing them out of office, leading to multiple libertarian minded individuals holding seats in the house, as well as the Senate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBill Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 How is that going to help the inner city kid struggling with poverty if his neighborhood gets even more dangerous because the police, fire and emergency responders are cut or his after school programs are gone? Smaller government will not bring the Erie Canal back to Buffalo, IMO. That's not a partisan point, its just reality So who pays for police and fire that a shrinking population and tax base can't afford? Call on the State or Federal governments to pay for it with money they do not have either? The answer sadly is yes some inner city situations are likely to get worse and more people will be driven out as a result. The other reality is that police and fire people will likely get paid less to keep them. The problem is that the situation especially on high tax and high cost of living but declining population cities is unsustainable. The above is a little stark but real. Cities will also have to make some very tough choices around what is necessary to support through taxes and what is not. I look at the situation here in Chicago where I will live for two more weeks and it is a tale of two cities literally. There are parts of South or Southwestern Chicago that are a cross between a war zone and a third world country. In most of the loop and Lincoln Park it is a very favorable place to live. The fix is not to tax and spend money we do not have in government. The fix is also not in looking to the Feds to pay for everything the local government can't. The real answers involve tough choices that our dug in two party system will never get to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 23, 2014 Author Share Posted February 23, 2014 Read what I said, they do not hold specific social positions but they draw people who do. It muddies the picture. Can you cite anything constructive the tea party has accomplished? See Tasker's post #35 above. I might add that they must be doing something right, what with all the liberal vitriol for them. I don't mean this in a partisan way but to exhibit the lib's deathly fear of them. They are so afraid that they make things up about them. See what gator tried to do in the Stay Classy Arizona thread. As to your other comment in your post that I am quoting, doesn't everybody hold specific social positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted February 23, 2014 Share Posted February 23, 2014 Read what I said, they do not hold specific social positions but they draw people who do. It muddies the picture. Every political movement in history has drawn some kooks into their ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dean Cain Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 In my home planet we were destroyed not by a foreign invader, yet from within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koko78 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 In my home planet we were destroyed not by a foreign invader, yet from within. What do you expect when you give 5,000,000,000+ people eye lasers and super strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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