San Jose Bills Fan Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Come on dude. No it doesn't. Watch the replay: So the NFL, the refs, Mike Patrick, Joe Theismann and former Bill and Buffalo resident Paul Maguire all have a conspiracy against the Bills? Who are you? Biff from Lancaster on the whiner line? Dude, it's over. ALL THAT BEING SAID, I agree with you 100% that it was a complete and utter special teams meltdown and we should never be having this conversation. I've watched the replay a million times Metz and it's inconclusive. Saying that it clearly shows anything is an opinion and a shaky one at that. I've even seen two video analyses of the play come to two different conclusions. What does that tell you? To me personally it looks like it's an illegal forward pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryfan62 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Come on dude. No it doesn't. Watch the replay: So the NFL, the refs, Mike Patrick, Joe Theismann and former Bill and Buffalo resident Paul Maguire all have a conspiracy against the Bills? Who are you? Biff from Lancaster on the whiner line? Dude, it's over. ALL THAT BEING SAID, I agree with you 100% that it was a complete and utter special teams meltdown and we should never be having this conversation. OMG Man, I can't believe how off my recollection of that play was, I watched it live but have tried to avoid looking at it since (for obvious reasons). I watched the link you posted and it's even worse than I remember. Wycheck throws the pass with both feet clearly just behind the 25 yard line, pass lands in Dyson's hands clearly ahead of the 25 yard line. Dyson's right foot at the moment he made the catch is exactly where the ball should have been to be properly ruled a legal catch (Just behind the 25 yd line). Dyson is ahead of where the ball is thrown from and does not lean forward as I said in my earlier post, he leans back to make the grab...But the catch is made ahead of the 25. 2:13-2:17 in your link show it best. BTW Joe Theismann thought it went forward too. The NFL line is that the refs ruled lateral on the field and there was not enough replay evidence to overturn the call. It's one of my worst Bills memories ever and you have made me relive it .....I'm not bitter though . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFanNC Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 No goal. It was a far bigger injustice. I saw goals called back that season when players skates violated the airspace above the crease. A stupid rule, but a rule it was that season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McD Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I'd have settled for someone tackling Mark Ingram. That was excruciating to watch.... It's like someone lubed him up and no defender coould get a grip. Conversely tell me HOW IN THE HELL DOES HOSTETLER HANG ON TO THAT FOOTBALL IN THE END ZONE WHILE HE'S BEING TACKLED BY BRUCE!?!?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 (edited) OMG Man, I can't believe how off my recollection of that play was, I watched it live but have tried to avoid looking at it since (for obvious reasons). I watched the link you posted and it's even worse than I remember. Wycheck throws the pass with both feet clearly just behind the 25 yard line, pass lands in Dyson's hands clearly ahead of the 25 yard line. Dyson's right foot at the moment he made the catch is exactly where the ball should have been to be properly ruled a legal catch (Just behind the 25 yd line). Dyson is ahead of where the ball is thrown from and does not lean forward as I said in my earlier post, he leans back to make the grab...But the catch is made ahead of the 25. 2:13-2:17 in your link show it best. BTW Joe Theismann thought it went forward too. The NFL line is that the refs ruled lateral on the field and there was not enough replay evidence to overturn the call. It's one of my worst Bills memories ever and you have made me relive it .....I'm not bitter though . No Theismann doesn't. You're hearing things you want to. He says "that looks like a lateral" like five times. Did you watch it on mute? Everyone thought it was a forward pass initially and then EVERYONE agrees it's not after looking at the replay a few times. And dude, where his feet are having nothing to do with anything. All that matters is the path the ball travels. Look right at 2:13-2:17, the ball is clearly AHEAD of the 25. I've watched the replay a million times Metz and it's inconclusive. Saying that it clearly shows anything is an opinion and a shaky one at that. I've even seen two video analyses of the play come to two different conclusions. What does that tell you? To me personally it looks like it's an illegal forward pass. You're right, it is inconclusive. I think if it was ruled a forward lateral, it's probably not overturned. That's kind of the point. But you cannot sit here and tell me that the ball clearly travels forward. I think it's pretty damn clear that it travels as laterally as humanly possible. Which is a legal play. As I stated previously, I think the best analogy is tie goes to the runner in baseball. If the ball goes pretty much on a straight line, it's a lateral. That's what me, Theismann, Patrick, Maguire, Phil Luckett and every objective person that's ever looked at it saw. If you watch more clips on youtube, even Tim Russert says "we were robbed" but he's kind of smiling and you can clearly tell he knows in his heart that it was the right call. Edited July 12, 2013 by metzelaars_lives Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offside Number 76 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 This will be unpopular, but I still believe that lateral could not be overturned on replay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like A Mofo Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 IT WAS NOT A FORWARD LATERAL. On the other hand, that season in the NHL, they had been unbelievably consistent calling in the crease on every single play where a player was even remotely touching the crease with a tiny fraction of their skate. And they would use video replay every time it was in question- even in the most meaningless middle-of-the-season games. And then the game-winning goal of the Stanley Cup finals is scored by a player whose entire skate is blatantly in the crease and they don't review it? It's really one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard of in sports. It's the reason the NHL is the NHL and the NFL is the NFL. Unfortunately for Bills fans, the refs got that one 100% right. It was a totally lateral/sideways throw, which, according to the rules, constitutes a legal lateral. Get over it. It's 2013. If you watch the replay, the ball was RIGHT ON THE LINE when it was released, and then it was caught in FRONT of the line....that means it was FORWARD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 If you watch the replay, the ball was RIGHT ON THE LINE when it was released, and then it was caught in FRONT of the line....that means it was FORWARD. You're crazy man. I like you but you're crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 That was excruciating to watch.... It's like someone lubed him up and no defender coould get a grip. Conversely tell me HOW IN THE HELL DOES HOSTETLER HANG ON TO THAT FOOTBALL IN THE END ZONE WHILE HE'S BEING TACKLED BY BRUCE!?!?! Yeah, that was awful. That Ingram play was the turning point for me. After that I had no confidence we could stop the Giants. On the saftey, you can't blame Bruce for not letting go of his man but too bad he couldn't slide his hand down from Hostetler's wrist and strip the ball. Of course, no assurance the Bills would have recovered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 This will be unpopular, but I still believe that lateral could not be overturned on replay. It shouldn't be unpopular. We are all on here because we love the Bills. That doesn't mean we can't be objective at the same time. Anyone who say "the ball clearly went forward" is delusional. Plain and simple. They are seeing something that didn't happen. Now, "no goal" is a different story altogether. Hull's skate was clearly in the crease in a season in which they were incredibly meticulous about calling every goal off when the scorer's skate was in the crease. That is also being objective. Also, I wanted to make another point. Anyone who says, "it was too close to call" is agreeing with me that the play should have stood and they might not even know it. It would have had to be conclusive to overturn. If you think that play is conclusive then you are from Neptune. Even as it happened on the field, if it's too close to being thrown on a straight line, then it's a legal play. Everything about that play was officiated properly: they were right in allowing it and they were certainly right in not overturning it. Sorry guys. This is coming from someone who has been to at least one Bills game every year since 1985 and loves the Bills like an immediate family member. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chandler#81 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Re: Throwback, I agree with SJBF that IF it were ruled a forward lateral on the field, the video is so inconclusive it wouldn't have been over-ruled either and the Bills move on in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Re: Throwback, I agree with SJBF that IF it were ruled a forward lateral on the field, the video is so inconclusive it wouldn't have been over-ruled either and the Bills move on in the playoffs. I think most anyone would agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryfan62 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 If you watch the replay, the ball was RIGHT ON THE LINE when it was released, and then it was caught in FRONT of the line....that means it was FORWARD. Thank You Mofo, that is absolutly correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryfan62 Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 No Theismann doesn't. You're hearing things you want to. He says "that looks like a lateral" like five times. Did you watch it on mute? Everyone thought it was a forward pass initially and then EVERYONE agrees it's not after looking at the replay a few times. And dude, where his feet are having nothing to do with anything. All that matters is the path the ball travels. Look right at 2:13-2:17, the ball is clearly AHEAD of the 25. You're right, it is inconclusive. I think if it was ruled a forward lateral, it's probably not overturned. That's kind of the point. But you cannot sit here and tell me that the ball clearly travels forward. I think it's pretty damn clear that it travels as laterally as humanly possible. Which is a legal play. As I stated previously, I think the best analogy is tie goes to the runner in baseball. If the ball goes pretty much on a straight line, it's a lateral. That's what me, Theismann, Patrick, Maguire, Phil Luckett and every objective person that's ever looked at it saw. If you watch more clips on youtube, even Tim Russert says "we were robbed" but he's kind of smiling and you can clearly tell he knows in his heart that it was the right call. You are correct sir, the play has nothing to do with where any player's feet are, it has to do with the path the ball travels. Wycheck passes from just behind the 25 yd line, Dyson catches just in front of it. If the play did not take place right at the 25 yd line it would be far more difficult to see, but due to the fact that it does anyone can clearly see that the ball was thrown from behind the 25 and caught in front of it. Apologies though, I did watch it on mute (the visual upsets my stomach enough lol), I read the comments underneath where folks were saying that Theismann said it was a forward pass, if he did not, so be it. As I said earlier I am not pinning it on the refs, the blame is on the coach for the play call and special teams for not staying in their lanes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mitchmurraydowntown Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 I had money on the Bills & the only way I could lose was if the Titans scored a TD, so I'd like that back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KD in CA Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 The more important aspect of the MSM was at the moment of the lateral, there was not a single Bills player on the entire 3d of the field where Dyson stood. Including Dyson, the six closest players to the sideline when he caught the ball were all Titans. That coverage breakdown would have been embarrassing in a high school game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metzelaars_lives Posted July 12, 2013 Share Posted July 12, 2013 You are correct sir, the play has nothing to do with where any player's feet are, it has to do with the path the ball travels. Wycheck passes from just behind the 25 yd line, Dyson catches just in front of it. If the play did not take place right at the 25 yd line it would be far more difficult to see, but due to the fact that it does anyone can clearly see that the ball was thrown from behind the 25 and caught in front of it. Apologies though, I did watch it on mute (the visual upsets my stomach enough lol), I read the comments underneath where folks were saying that Theismann said it was a forward pass, if he did not, so be it. As I said earlier I am not pinning it on the refs, the blame is on the coach for the play call and special teams for not staying in their lanes. How you can sit here and tell me that the pass was thrown from BEHIND the 25 yard line absolutely blows my mind. I mean blows it. You are seeing something that simply did not happen. I guess that contributes to your angry fandom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angryfan62 Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 How you can sit here and tell me that the pass was thrown from BEHIND the 25 yard line absolutely blows my mind. I mean blows it. You are seeing something that simply did not happen. I guess that contributes to your angry fandom. Hey, that's how I see it...The refs at that particular game, Titans fans, you and many others disagree. A lot of people see it my way also. So be it, it's water under the bridge and far, far down the river anyway. I wasn't an "angry" fan after that game, I was an extremely disappointed but still expectant fan then (well....F-it, we'll get em next year). I gradually became an "angry" fan after more than a decade of mostly poor draft and coaching choices, inexplicable play calling and unfathomable late game collapses (see "coaching choices" above), that cost my team game after winnable game, season after season. I am once again expectant this summer due to the front office changes and apparent change of attitude around One Bills Drive. But then again that's how I am every summer lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 The more important aspect of the MSM was at the moment of the lateral, there was not a single Bills player on the entire 3d of the field where Dyson stood. Including Dyson, the six closest players to the sideline when he caught the ball were all Titans. That coverage breakdown would have been embarrassing in a high school game. You say that, but I ask in all seriousness, what is the proper way to play this in kickoff coverage? I was always taught to keep your assignments relative to the ball and then you close in and tackle the ball carrier after he catches it. When Wychek gets the ball and starts running to his right the bills players on the left side of the field break out of their lanes and start pursuing him. The throwback then puts them way out of position. What should the coverage team have done? Stay on the left side of the field while the ball carrier is running right and hope the guys over there make the tackle one v one? Maybe some of the coverage "second wave" should've recognized the play and gone to Dyson's side of the field? But there are usually only 4 or 5 players on the second wave and only 2 or 3 that could've made a play if they recognized it. There are 5 Titans blocking on that side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 13, 2013 Share Posted July 13, 2013 OT - Did Wade Phillips have the worst special teams in the history of the franchise or what? Ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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