GG Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 "Throwing more money at it" What?? First off, they are earning their wage. There is no handout, there are no taxes being placed on anyone that is being redistributed. So your characterization is faulty at best. The crux of it all is that you are against minimum wages, period. Right? Now that we have it, because it is law, when do you propose is the right time to increase those wages? Of course you are, because you usually are where I am right now. They are "earning" their wage at a rate set by government dictat, and in your proposal would see a consistent escalation, even if the industry can't support the added cost. That's why I call throwing money at it, just like upcoming contributions to ACA are going to be "voluntary" No I do not believe in a minimum wage, because again, you're trying to fix a separate societal issue with money. Earnings are a defacto contract between you and your employer. Proponents of minimum wage believe that employees have no power over the employers in negotiating wages. That may occur in some cases, but it's not the overwhelming case, because that higher cost of living should give the employee a clearing price at which he will accept a job given his circumstances. The fact that only 5% of all hourly workers are subject to minumum wage work, and only 1.7% are working full time at minimum wage indicates that it's a political soundbite rather than an economic catastrophe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 They are "earning" their wage at a rate set by government dictat, and in your proposal would see a consistent escalation, even if the industry can't support the added cost. That's why I call throwing money at it, just like upcoming contributions to ACA are going to be "voluntary" No I do not believe in a minimum wage, because again, you're trying to fix a separate societal issue with money. Earnings are a defacto contract between you and your employer. Proponents of minimum wage believe that employees have no power over the employers in negotiating wages. That may occur in some cases, but it's not the overwhelming case, because that higher cost of living should give the employee a clearing price at which he will accept a job given his circumstances. The fact that only 5% of all hourly workers are subject to minumum wage work, and only 1.7% are working full time at minimum wage indicates that it's a political soundbite rather than an economic catastrophe. That's fine, you don't believe in it, I do. I believe by in large that the market will properly set wages. However I do believe that there are certain times and conditions when their not, and that abuses take place. But lets now talk about the current situation. It's law right? That there is a minimum wage. Now that we know that it will continue to be the law. When should there be an increase in the minimum wage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) To your two points. 1) I do, and honestly I don't really care what you find to be ironic. 2) And your "fiat declaration" that it doesn't make it so, doesn't make it so. Stop being foolish. 2) You, yourself are an ideologue. Your positions are unnuanced, and while they may not be mainstream, are certainly not borne of origional thought. That, and your adherence to those principles, as you define them, are ridgid. 2) You have yet to successfully defend your ideas against any sort of opposition: moral, practical, economic, or philisophical. Until you can do this, you're just pissing in the wind making fiat declarations. Grow the !@#$ up. Edited March 22, 2013 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Stop being foolish. 2) You, yourself are an ideologue. Your positions are unnuanced, and while they may not be mainstream are certainly not borne of origional thought. That, and your adherence to those principles, as you define them, are ridged. 2) You have yet to successfully defend your ideas against any sort of opposition: moral, practical, economic, or philisophical. Until you can do this, you're just pissing in the wind making fiat declarations. Grow the !@#$ up. Shut the !@#$ already, moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 But lets now talk about the current situation. It's law right? That there is a minimum wage. Now that we know that it will continue to be the law. When should there be an increase in the minimum wage? If there is an increase in the MW, it should be done retroactively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) While I'm sure you could set a minimum wage that would slow growth and cause unemployme when I look at historic minimum wage vs unemployment and gdp growth I don't see it in practice - minimum wage probably is very close to what the market would set anyway which you could see as redundant but it would curtail abuses to some in a vulnerable position - we don't let the market decide every issue for example we don't allow price gauging in times of natural disaster. Edited March 21, 2013 by ....lybob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 If you really think about it, based on this comment, maybe it isn't me who should rethink their position. That's...actually a perfectly sound and valid comeback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 If there is an increase in the MW, it should be done retroactively. How so? Specifics please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Shut the !@#$ already, moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 They are "earning" their wage at a rate set by government dictat, and in your proposal would see a consistent escalation, even if the industry can't support the added cost. That's why I call throwing money at it, just like upcoming contributions to ACA are going to be "voluntary" No I do not believe in a minimum wage, because again, you're trying to fix a separate societal issue with money. Earnings are a defacto contract between you and your employer. Proponents of minimum wage believe that employees have no power over the employers in negotiating wages. That may occur in some cases, but it's not the overwhelming case, because that higher cost of living should give the employee a clearing price at which he will accept a job given his circumstances. The fact that only 5% of all hourly workers are subject to minumum wage work, and only 1.7% are working full time at minimum wage indicates that it's a political soundbite rather than an economic catastrophe. I wonder how many included in that 1.7% are seniors that are collecting SS or other retirement benefits, and are just working to supplement their income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 How so? Specifics please. Kind of like it's done now. Wait a few years, have politicians get up in a huff and approve a raise to the wage. That fact alone prevents it from becoming another stealth tax that could snowball down the road into a "living wage." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Kind of like it's done now. Wait a few years, have politicians get up in a huff and approve a raise to the wage. That fact alone prevents it from becoming another stealth tax that could snowball down the road into a "living wage." It's been four years since the last increase, corporations are doing fine and the cost of living has increased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) It's been four years since the last increase, corporations are doing fine and the cost of living has increased. Your logic is painfully internally inconsistent. So much so, in fact, that I am struggling to call it logic. Edited March 21, 2013 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Your logic is painfully internally inconsistent. So much so, in fact, that I am struggling to call it logic. I'm perfectly fine with having a diametrically opposing view to what you subscribe to. Edited March 21, 2013 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IDBillzFan Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 It's been four years since the last increase, corporations are doing fine and the cost of living has increased. I probably know better than to jump in here, but...so what? Any time I ever worked for minimum wage it lasted about two weeks before the boss said "Okay, you're not a slacker. Here's a raise." Before you start characterizing min. wage workers by age, you have to ask yourself one simple question: who are majority of people working minimum wage jobs? People with minimum work skills. How did they end up with minimum work skills? They either (a) are young and just starting out or (b) a complete lazyass useless tool with no ambition. Otherwise you have older people supplementing income. If you lack work skills at the age of 21, whose fault is that? Christ, even when I was in high school in the late 70s you had something like BOCES to help you learn a trade so you COULD earn a living beyond minimum wage. You could take cheap classes at the community college to become a paralegal or even a freaking hairdresser. You could become a cop or fire firefighter with a few scneckles and basic training. ANYONE can earn beyond minimum wage with even the slightest bit of effort. And here's the best part: if you don't like your job or you don't like your pay, you can try to improve yourself with the countless resources available to you, and then go get a better job. Take minimum wage away and let's see who wants to step up. If you're in your 20s and all you can earn is $3/hour mopping floors, why is that anyone else's fault but the floor-mopper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) I probably know better than to jump in here, but...so what? Any time I ever worked for minimum wage it lasted about two weeks before the boss said "Okay, you're not a slacker. Here's a raise." Before you start characterizing min. wage workers by age, you have to ask yourself one simple question: who are majority of people working minimum wage jobs? People with minimum work skills. How did they end up with minimum work skills? They either (a) are young and just starting out or (b) a complete lazyass useless tool with no ambition. Otherwise you have older people supplementing income. If you lack work skills at the age of 21, whose fault is that? Christ, even when I was in high school in the late 70s you had something like BOCES to help you learn a trade so you COULD earn a living beyond minimum wage. You could take cheap classes at the community college to become a paralegal or even a freaking hairdresser. You could become a cop or fire firefighter with a few scneckles and basic training. ANYONE can earn beyond minimum wage with even the slightest bit of effort. And here's the best part: if you don't like your job or you don't like your pay, you can try to improve yourself with the countless resources available to you, and then go get a better job. Take minimum wage away and let's see who wants to step up. If you're in your 20s and all you can earn is $3/hour mopping floors, why is that anyone else's fault but the floor-mopper? It's been discussed ad nauseum... If you want to look at both sides arguments, you can go back the last few pages. And I just have a generally fundamentally different view of employees than most of you here. Also, this was a response to GG's comment. Since Minimum wage is the law of the land, and you nor anyone will change that, the question was when should there be increases in the minimum wage? GG responded with Kind of like it's done now. Wait a few years, have politicians get up in a huff and approve a raise to the wage. Since most of us know that the word "few" means a small number, and the number 3 usually fits the bill, I responded with It's been four years since the last increase, corporations are doing fine and the cost of living has increased. Edited March 21, 2013 by Magox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I'm perfectly fine with having a diametrically opposing view to what you subscribe to. It's not about having a view that opposes mine, it's about your views being internally logically inconsistent. There are plenty of views that oppose mine that have internal logical consistency, it's just that yours isn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 It's not about having a view that opposes mine, it's about your views being internally logically inconsistent. There are plenty of views that oppose mine that have internal logical consistency, it's just that yours isn't one of them. Let's put it this way..... I don't respect your opinion. Therefore I don't give two ***** what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I probably know better than to jump in here, but...so what? Any time I ever worked for minimum wage it lasted about two weeks before the boss said "Okay, you're not a slacker. Here's a raise." Before you start characterizing min. wage workers by age, you have to ask yourself one simple question: who are majority of people working minimum wage jobs? People with minimum work skills. How did they end up with minimum work skills? They either (a) are young and just starting out or (b) a complete lazyass useless tool with no ambition. Otherwise you have older people supplementing income. If you lack work skills at the age of 21, whose fault is that? Christ, even when I was in high school in the late 70s you had something like BOCES to help you learn a trade so you COULD earn a living beyond minimum wage. You could take cheap classes at the community college to become a paralegal or even a freaking hairdresser. You could become a cop or fire firefighter with a few scneckles and basic training. ANYONE can earn beyond minimum wage with even the slightest bit of effort. And here's the best part: if you don't like your job or you don't like your pay, you can try to improve yourself with the countless resources available to you, and then go get a better job. Take minimum wage away and let's see who wants to step up. If you're in your 20s and all you can earn is $3/hour mopping floors, why is that anyone else's fault but the floor-mopper? And there it is in a nutshell. Why the !@#$ have we spent two days arguing about giving more money to !@#$ing teenagers and deadbeats? I say we pool all that money, take our shares and go get drunk. Is it Friday yet? To your two points. 1) I do, and honestly I don't really care what you find to be ironic. 2) And your "fiat declaration" that it doesn't make it so, doesn't make it so. "Throwing more money at it" What?? First off, they are earning their wage. There is no handout, there are no taxes being placed on anyone that is being redistributed. So your characterization is faulty at best. Really?? Who's paying the additional payroll taxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 And there it is in a nutshell. Why the !@#$ have we spent two days arguing about giving more money to !@#$ing teenagers and deadbeats? I say we pool all that money, take our shares and go get drunk. Is it Friday yet? Really?? Who's paying the additional payroll taxes? Ok, so a little bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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