Mr. WEO Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ap-source-nfl-saints-bounty-005604804--nfl.html;_ylt=AiPBxAxvdUKCHCOYK1_c94pDubYF Another story on the ledger that's confirming that the language used was dumb but hits weren't targeted. That the players were never afforded a chance to see this. Vilmas been all over this on twitter going after the nfl leak. For his own sake I hope he knows what he's getting into and is truly uninvolved in pay for injury. And I've heard that the burbank is considering ruling that the nfl mishandled punishment and basically messed up grouping pay for play and pay for injury together (sound familiar from my posts the last 2 months?) and they will possibly need to go back to square one with a lot of this? No joe, this whole thing wasn't a mess for the nfl in how they handled it. I don't NoSaint. There may be some hair splitting going on, depending on who yahoo is quoting with each update. Bottom line--the existence of a ledger is likely not news to Vilma, et al. But even if they tease out "pay for play" and the head hunting stuff and have to go back to square one--at that point the League would like drop all 15,000 pages of evidence on yahoo, espn, etc. It would be over for Vilma at that point. But I do agree that with the Cowboys and Skins, the NFL has committed a huge blunder, at the direction of guys like Mara. They have clearly exposed blatant collusion and even the pathetic law mind of D. Smith is going to jump all over that. Legally, I don't know how the league survives that suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 (edited) But I do agree that with the Cowboys and Skins, the NFL has committed a huge blunder, at the direction of guys like Mara. They have clearly exposed blatant collusion and even the pathetic law mind of D. Smith is going to jump all over that. Legally, I don't know how the league survives that suit. You are right that there was blatant collusion regarding the way the cap was handled during the lockout period. On the other hand the league has almost zero liability from a union challenge for collusion because the union signed the new CBA that included a clearly written clause (compared to your typical legalese)that the union willingly forfeited its right to legally challenge any matter known or not known during that period of time. I'm sure you are already aware that both the Skins and Cowboys agreed to accept the arbitrator's decision against them without further pursuing the matter in a legal venue. Both owners recognized that pursuing the matter in court post arbitrator's decision created a situation where they were not only buttressing the claim of the union but creating a liability for them as members of the ownership group. Poetic justice? Sometimes chicanary doesn't pay. Edited June 2, 2012 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QB Bills Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Nothing about the hits, but if my memory is correct, Moorman threw a TD Pass to Denney in the 1st half off of a fake FG. no, that was actually against seattle I don't think mckelvin, scott or whitner were victims of Gregg Williams defensive bounties. Though perhaps bell was a target! The giants injury is also an LT with a groin injury. Kind of odd injury to be targeting though. And bell was hurt a lot, if I remember correctly. I maintain the bills game was turnovers and big plays primarily. be honest now...how many of you contributed to the bounty for these two guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toshiero Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Hey Atallah your !@#$ players are busted and there isn't anything you can do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) http://sports.yahoo.com/news/ap-source-nfl-saints-bounty-005604804--nfl.html;_ylt=AiPBxAxvdUKCHCOYK1_c94pDubYF Another story on the ledger that's confirming that the language used was dumb but hits weren't targeted. That the players were never afforded a chance to see this. Vilmas been all over this on twitter going after the nfl leak. For his own sake I hope he knows what he's getting into and is truly uninvolved in pay for injury. And I've heard that the burbank is considering ruling that the nfl mishandled punishment and basically messed up grouping pay for play and pay for injury together (sound familiar from my posts the last 2 months?) and they will possibly need to go back to square one with a lot of this? No joe, this whole thing wasn't a mess for the nfl in how they handled it. NOBODY REALLY GIVES A RIP OUTSIDE OF NEW ORLEANS. Saints bounty articles are no where near the top news stories in sports. People are into basketball playoffs where 2 terrific series are taking place, NHL finals, Baseball/Santana tossing no hitter for Mets, French Open tennis, their own nfl teams OTAs, etc etc. saints bounty stories are buried at the bottom with woman's golf. It's old news, country has moved on, while saints are stuck with mess they made Edited June 3, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 NOBODY REALLY GIVES A RIP OUTSIDE OF NEW ORLEANS. Saints bounty articles are no where near the top news stories in sports. People are into basketball playoffs where 2 terrific series are taking place, NHL finals, Baseball/Santana tossing no hitter for Mets, French Open tennis, their own nfl teams OTAs, etc etc. saints bounty stories are buried at the bottom with woman's golf. It's old news, country has moved on, while saints are stuck with mess they made Wait, aren't you the guy who started that insane (but unintentionally pretty funny) thread about how the Saints shouldn't pay Brees what he deserves? Anyway, some of us think this topic is worth discussing because it raises very interesting legal and league policy issues that could affect all teams. Let the adults talk--go start a thread about Marcus Easley or which player is going to wear which number. And as for your list of other, more compelling sports: no one cares about Devils/Kings, the crappy Mets no hitter was bogus and already makes for todays fish and chips paper, the French Open is playing to no one on the Tennis Channel and it's only interesting moment has been a guy puking on the court after a 34 hit rally. Good call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) I don't NoSaint. There may be some hair splitting going on, depending on who yahoo is quoting with each update. Bottom line--the existence of a ledger is likely not news to Vilma, et al. But even if they tease out "pay for play" and the head hunting stuff and have to go back to square one--at that point the League would like drop all 15,000 pages of evidence on yahoo, espn, etc. It would be over for Vilma at that point. But I do agree that with the Cowboys and Skins, the NFL has committed a huge blunder, at the direction of guys like Mara. They have clearly exposed blatant collusion and even the pathetic law mind of D. Smith is going to jump all over that. Legally, I don't know how the league survives that suit. just how borderline belligerent he is being about it is surprising to me if it existed as the nfl describes. we will see. like i said, what bothers me is the process that has been followed. i think the nfl flubbed it from the get go. i dont think this is a situation where gregg having a conditional suspension is appropriate. there is little to nothing that he could do in the next year that could, in my opinion, change what his punishment should be. either he deserves to be gone for good or not and running some youth programs and following the company line shouldnt effect that. it lends an air of inappropriateness to hold the number one info source (as far as i can tell) under your thumb until the point of no return for everyone else... with the splitting hairs - i think the leak itself has been an interesting development. if it was just the reporter flubbing the game id write it off totally but the fact that the corrected game still doesnt fit the description (ie either the pay was for turnovers, or it was to three offensive players that injured a panthers lb without touching him) and the giants game is for mckenzie who was a groin injury and not a hit if true (though the fumble on that play would make more sense). the fact that this is being leaked as a bounty ledger is more than splitting hairs until theres any form of back up that bounties were being paid. youd think if it were so easy and obvious theyd have some easy examples to point to. offensive players being involved would be a major development too. if they have this document, show it to players, and the nflpa. even if not the fans or media. we are talking about a lot of money coming out of pockets and a lot of on field punishment for not even being able to share a basic document like this should be. i also get that identifying someone the money was actually paid on by name is probably something that opens up a lot of liability - but atleast behind closed doors with vilmas attorneys it should be fine to share some of this. i think the term bounty is being thrown around pretty recklessly by the league in order to keep moral outrage up. again, that said, i think things that were against the rules did happen, and they should be punished for them, but at this point i want to know what really happened as it doesnt seem to match up with the initial reports. again in that sense i tie it to the cowboys and redskins issue - the league throwing out the term salary cap violations in a year without a cap is just baffling. it makes me suspect they would be willing to paint things how they see fit to fit the story line they are creating. they were upset with teams for behavior deemed innappropriate and in turn created a punishment that seemed completely fabricated out of thin air. the saints story line, like i said, is a lot more hazy as they seemingly did break actual rules but to what extent seems questionable when you start getting into the nuts and bolts of what weve seen vs what the nfl claimed. Edited June 3, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 (edited) Wait, aren't you the guy who started that insane (but unintentionally pretty funny) thread about how the Saints shouldn't pay Brees what he deserves? Anyway, some of us think this topic is worth discussing because it raises very interesting legal and league policy issues that could affect all teams. Let the adults talk--go start a thread about Marcus Easley or which player is going to wear which number. And as for your list of other, more compelling sports: no one cares about Devils/Kings, the crappy Mets no hitter was bogus and already makes for todays fish and chips paper, the French Open is playing to no one on the Tennis Channel and it's only interesting moment has been a guy puking on the court after a 34 hit rally. Good call. Oh double wait: isn't the subject here saints bounty not brees contract ? Since you obviously care so much I must consider you a nobody. Oops my bad on the Freudian slip Edited June 3, 2012 by Joe_the_6_pack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 16, 2012 Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) Vilma update: From a 50,000page file I get a whole 16 documents. Not surprisingly, no evidence of a bounty system. Y? Bc there was none (From jonvilma51 channel on MogoTXT ) I know atleast 2 of those documents are a newspaper article from about 2 weeks ago and a Sean pamphilon rant also from AFTER the punishments.... Another being the ornstein email saying "put 5k on Rodgers for me" which he claims as a joke (seeing as he's in jail). Vilmas lawyer and several sources with access claim no smoking gun, with one calling it a water gun. Another saying that there's some dumb comments documented (similar to the speech from the 49ers pre game) but nothing in the way of proof. Still curious to see how far they went to get these punishments Edited June 16, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 well-- interesting morning on this front..... some posturing on both sides with the "you didnt give us the evidence in time" and "well lets meet after lunch when that time would be up" vilmas lawyer claiming within the unreleased documents is evidence that would prove his innocence, and more legal action may be coming. media seeing the documents universally saying that they dont prove anything. freeman citing a note reading "vitt $5000 qb out pool" is the closest to anything concrete and it doesnt implicate the players. this is going to drag out for a long time it sounds like. vilma honestly may be hoping to drag it out like starcaps and be retired before hes forced to serve anything... but we will see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 well-- interesting morning on this front..... some posturing on both sides with the "you didnt give us the evidence in time" and "well lets meet after lunch when that time would be up" vilmas lawyer claiming within the unreleased documents is evidence that would prove his innocence, and more legal action may be coming. media seeing the documents universally saying that they dont prove anything. freeman citing a note reading "vitt $5000 qb out pool" is the closest to anything concrete and it doesnt implicate the players. this is going to drag out for a long time it sounds like. vilma honestly may be hoping to drag it out like starcaps and be retired before hes forced to serve anything... but we will see. So this note just exists in a vacuum? Is it just on Gregg Williams? If so, how can Williams implement his bounty system without the buy-in of at least one player? This is what's bothered me from the minute Williams was suspended. This idea of a rogue general just acting alone and going off the reservation just doesn't add up. Did the players just pretend not to listen? Did they just pass off Williams' remarks as that of a crazy man and ignore him? I find that hard to believe. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) So this note just exists in a vacuum? Is it just on Gregg Williams? If so, how can Williams implement his bounty system without the buy-in of at least one player? This is what's bothered me from the minute Williams was suspended. This idea of a rogue general just acting alone and going off the reservation just doesn't add up. Did the players just pretend not to listen? Did they just pass off Williams' remarks as that of a crazy man and ignore him? I find that hard to believe. GO BILLS!!! i understand, and will say vitt isnt at this hearing as far as i know and freeman provided no context to it, but afterwards did tweet that he didnt see anything that constituted proof. so what the note was, i dont know beyond his quick tweet and the only context continues to be he and everyone else saying they havent seen proof - so i am not sure what to make of it. to talk about the rogue aspect - it could be that they had a large pay for performance program, but gregg was the one that crossed lines into pay for injury? just one way that could reconcile it. what complicates it is that you have different arguments from players and coaches here. without providing evidence of who did what, its hard to say hargrove gets one thing - vilma another etc... how do you take away a year of vilmas career without giving anything specific to what he did? thats a multimillion dollar penalty and hes still been given nothing? Edited June 18, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 i understand, and will say vitt isnt at this hearing as far as i know and freeman provided no context to it, but afterwards did tweet that he didnt see anything that constituted proof. so what the note was, i dont know beyond his quick tweet and the only context continues to be he and everyone else saying they havent seen proof - so i am not sure what to make of it. without providing evidence of who did what, its hard to say hargrove gets one thing - vilma another etc... how do you take away a year of vilmas career without giving anything specific to what he did? thats a multimillion dollar penalty and hes still been given nothing? That's the million dollar question and I can't blame Vilma and his team for pressing the issue. But the fact other players got less of a punishment for participating in the same Williams scheme suggests that they were the ones that provided the the league with information used against Vilma. Have Hargrove and Fujita commented on the case? I've only been following it as you provide the updates. Which are appreciated, btw. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) That's the million dollar question and I can't blame Vilma and his team for pressing the issue. But the fact other players got less of a punishment for participating in the same Williams scheme suggests that they were the ones that provided the the league with information used against Vilma. Have Hargrove and Fujita commented on the case? I've only been following it as you provide the updates. Which are appreciated, btw. GO BILLS!!! Fujita has been far less vocal but has made a few strong statements along the way - similar to vilma in sentiment but a lot less aggressive or frequent. The inclusion of Hargrove has been interesting. He gave the nfl a statement but didn't implicate any players from what I recall. I couldn't give you the firm details of it today from memory. If correct I believe the nfl suspended him primarily for lying or changing his story. Will smith has been silent. And no prob on the updates. It's good to get out of town perspective as everywhere I turn people argue it was nothing- like I've said, I think it's somewhere in between but hard to figure without anything concrete from the nfl Edited June 18, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Fujita has been far less vocal but has made a few strong statements along the way - similar to vilma in sentiment but a lot less aggressive or frequent. The inclusion of Hargrove has been interesting. He gave the nfl a statement but didn't implicate any players from what I recall. I couldn't give you the firm details of it today from memory. If correct I believe the nfl suspended him primarily for lying or changing his story. Will smith has been silent. Thanks for the info. I'll have to do some searching. I know that the other players received less punishment and maybe they just want to get it over with, but it's interesting that they're not showing as united a front with Vilma as I would have thought. I would have expected a level of outrage similar to Vilma's at the very least. GO BILLS!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the info. I'll have to do some searching. I know that the other players received less punishment and maybe they just want to get it over with, but it's interesting that they're not showing as united a front with Vilma as I would have thought. I would have expected a level of outrage similar to Vilma's at the very least. GO BILLS!!! They (other 3) put a joint statement today. It was pretty firm that they felt railroaded and were only coming today so tge nfl couldnt say they didnt show. Vilmas flying solo in large part with the lawsuit and private attorney being the difference. Edited June 18, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Fujita has been far less vocal but has made a few strong statements along the way - similar to vilma in sentiment but a lot less aggressive or frequent. The inclusion of Hargrove has been interesting. He gave the nfl a statement but didn't implicate any players from what I recall. I couldn't give you the firm details of it today from memory. If correct I believe the nfl suspended him primarily for lying or changing his story. Will smith has been silent. And no prob on the updates. It's good to get out of town perspective as everywhere I turn people argue it was nothing- like I've said, I think it's somewhere in between but hard to figure without anything concrete from the nfl The documents we don't see are obviously the ones where Williams (and others?) implicates each and every one of these players. If these cases rely entirely on flatus and moonbeams, as Vilma and his lawyer would have us believe, then not one of the coaches and GM would have so quickly and quietly surrendered their livelihoods for the better part of the coming year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) The documents we don't see are obviously the ones where Williams (and others?) implicates each and every one of these players. If these cases rely entirely on flatus and moonbeams, as Vilma and his lawyer would have us believe, then not one of the coaches and GM would have so quickly and quietly surrendered their livelihoods for the better part of the coming year. Then why not provide them? What of it does take some conjecture and a few leaps to be as concrete as hoped, and pay for injury is unproven? It's a little strange at this point. Edited June 18, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 Then why not provide them? What of it does take some conjecture and a few leaps to be as concrete as hoped, and pay for injury is unproven? Just as in criminal conspiracy, no harm has to come as a result. The agreement among 2 or more parties to do the act is all you need for conviction. The commish didn't think he needed actual bodies. If there is a system in place to pay guys to harm others, that's the suspendible offense. Not sure why they don't release all info. Have they been compelled to by anyone? If not, then they won't until they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted June 18, 2012 Share Posted June 18, 2012 (edited) Just as in criminal conspiracy, no harm has to come as a result. The agreement among 2 or more parties to do the act is all you need for conviction. The commish didn't think he needed actual bodies. If there is a system in place to pay guys to harm others, that's the suspendible offense. Not sure why they don't release all info. Have they been compelled to by anyone? If not, then they won't until they are. I understand that you don't need bodies. In theory vilmas lawsuit should be the crossroads as far as info. On Friday they were supposed to hand over any evidence to be used today and there allegedly was nothing though. In fact atleast 3 of the 16 documents were from AFTER the punishment. The leaked ledger fell apart. It's starting to get a bit like they didn't expect to get pressed or maybe someone's statements have changed and the smoking gun no longer exists? Perhaps? I really don't get the nfl approach right now. Vilmas arguing that there's evidence at nfl headquarters that proves he's innocent, which I don't know how he has that info. It's just odd at this point. Edited June 18, 2012 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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