Just Jack Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Not defending the dolt Kennedy's choice to kick the nurses BUT... What is the chain of command here? Doesn't a doctor override the nurse's authority? Shouldn't the nurses be subordinate to the doctor? Scroll up and read AJ's take on the doctor/nurse situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Scroll up and read AJ's take on the doctor/nurse situation. I did. I just can't see how the enviro can be an "egalitarian" setting. If the rules are to be broken... The doc has more priority... They will swing. Somebody has to be in charge... Everybody can't all be on the same level here. Given the docs creds, should easily over-ride the nurses authority. The doctor was from the ER and a family friend to Kennedy. Hospital rules should be the same for everyone including the Kennedys. And Jay-Z/Beyonce? The chain of command in this case is what Kennedy should be beaten with for thinking he somehow had the right to take a baby out of the nursery. If there wasn't a staff doctor with him... I would totally agree. The nurses no doubt were caught in the middle. Don't lunge for the baby and just call security... Create a stink in another way... They had time to mobilize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) That was on purpose, you moron. Why? B word? Feel free to remove a question mark... Edited February 26, 2012 by Booster4324 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I did. I just can't see how the enviro can be an "egalitarian" setting. If the rules are to be broken... The doc has more priority... They will swing. Somebody has to be in charge... Everybody can't all be on the same level here. Given the docs creds, should easily over-ride the nurses authority. Every place I've installed a system the Nurse Manager, or sometimes called the Charge Nurse, had the highest authority in the maternity wing. In all the systems we've installed, no doctor was ever given rights to the system to allow a baby to be signed out. Only Security and the nurses had access to that function. Very simply, when it comes to the maternity ward, nurses are in charge, these are their babies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I did. I just can't see how the enviro can be an "egalitarian" setting. If the rules are to be broken... The doc has more priority... They will swing. Somebody has to be in charge... Everybody can't all be on the same level here. Given the docs creds, should easily over-ride the nurses authority. And Jay-Z/Beyonce? If there wasn't a staff doctor with him... I would totally agree. The nurses no doubt were caught in the middle. Don't lunge for the baby and just call security... Create a stink in another way... They had time to mobilize. So at no point in your thought process do you have any concern for the safety of the child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Why? B word? Feel free to remove a question mark... OK, so you've proved to me that B word gets through the safeguards here. I'll have to remember that if I choose to respond to any of your future hissy fits. You come off as a drama queen that's most likely astute at naming all the pastel colors. You must have real conflicted feelings about Rick Santorum's conservative views and his wearing of a sweater vest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 OK, so you've proved to me that B word gets through the safeguards here. I'll have to remember that if I choose to respond to any of your future hissy fits. You come off as a drama queen that's most likely astute at naming all the pastel colors. You must have real conflicted feelings about Rick Santorum's conservative views and his wearing of a sweater vest. That is awesome. You are such a moron you admit to trying to circumvent the language filter when you do not have to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) So at no point in your thought process do you have any concern for the safety of the child? And I am the guy who works for the government! Wow... You guys sound more liberal than I do! Yes, I am concerned about the safety of the child... That is why the nurse should have known not to lunge after the child... You know "papa bear" instinct will kick in! If they were so concerned about the safety of the infant, why lunge for it? Anything could have happened during that clustereff that ensued. And you make valid points Jack... Why wasn't and alarm sytem in place? Crying out loud... My son was born in 1998 and he had a device on him that enabled the doors to lock down should anybody try and carry him out. Was it really necessary for the nurses to get heavy handed with what was clearly a Kennedy acting like a d-ouche-bag? Edited February 26, 2012 by ExiledInIllinois Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 That is awesome. You are such a moron you admit to trying to circumvent the language filter when you do not have to do so. Here, this might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Booster4324 Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Here, this might help: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midol So that is all you have? Well, guess who comes off as the B word? My point was and is, conservatives would be up in arms if this had happened to one of theirs. You being a partisan hack would have fully supported the rights of the father. Frankly, if that was the case, I would have supported you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I did. I just can't see how the enviro can be an "egalitarian" setting. If the rules are to be broken... The doc has more priority... They will swing. Somebody has to be in charge... Everybody can't all be on the same level here. Given the docs creds, should easily over-ride the nurses authority. The doctors creds? You mean his degree, his license, and the laws that define and govern his (or her) scope of practice? Nurses have the exact same set of things. My scope of practice is very clearly defined by the Nurse Practice Act and the board of nursing for my state. That's the basis for why I feel as I do about this issue. A lot of RNs and LPNs (Lower Paid Nurses) go to schools where the education is task oriented. One of the (very few) advantages of going to one of the best schools in the country was that we had a focus on management and leadership. I used to believe as you did, that docs were my superiors. It's simply not the case, and many RNs have no idea how broad their scope of practice truly is. I'm sure the DOCS often think they are our superiors, but unless they are in my direct chain of command, they simply aren't. Hospitals have CNOs, Chief Nursing Officers, who report directly to the CEO. Typically beneath him or her would be the Director of Nursing. Then you have the assistant DON, followed by the unit managers, and then after that it's typically the assistant managers and/or the charge nurses. That's my chain of command. Do they have a higher level of status? Of course they do. They have more education and they (usually) work longer hours, and of course they earn more. They deserve their status, without question. But my practice is not defined by them. Nursing and Medicine are separate, but complementary, practices. In the scenario at hand, if there was a doc with Kennedy, it would be the rules of the hospital (and the state) that would rule...not the docs directives. Every place I've installed a system the Nurse Manager, or sometimes called the Charge Nurse, had the highest authority in the maternity wing. In all the systems we've installed, no doctor was ever given rights to the system to allow a baby to be signed out. Only Security and the nurses had access to that function. Very simply, when it comes to the maternity ward, nurses are in charge, these are their babies. I remember one year we had a drill called a "code pink", which meant that a baby was missing. When that happens, staff are to block all stairwells, elevators, and exits. NOBODY is allowed to leave their location until the code was clear, and anyone who had a bag, suitcase, etc was searched. Well, during the drill, the CEO himself pretended as if he were leaving for the day. He walked right out the front door with his briefcase and whoever was watching that location allowed him to walk right by since, well, that was the CEO! After he was allowed to leave, he turned around and came back to the door, opened up his briefcase, and inside was a doll representing the missing baby. (They would usually do that until the doll was found, indicating a successful drill.) The point being, it doesn't matter who you are....when a baby is missing, you are not above the law/rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The doctors creds? You mean his degree, his license, and the laws that define and govern his (or her) scope of practice? Nurses have the exact same set of things. My scope of practice is very clearly defined by the Nurse Practice Act and the board of nursing for my state. That's the basis for why I feel as I do about this issue. A lot of RNs and LPNs (Lower Paid Nurses) go to schools where the education is task oriented. One of the (very few) advantages of going to one of the best schools in the country was that we had a focus on management and leadership. I used to believe as you did, that docs were my superiors. It's simply not the case, and many RNs have no idea how broad their scope of practice truly is. I'm sure the DOCS often think they are our superiors, but unless they are in my direct chain of command, they simply aren't. Hospitals have CNOs, Chief Nursing Officers, who report directly to the CEO. Typically beneath him or her would be the Director of Nursing. Then you have the assistant DON, followed by the unit managers, and then after that it's typically the assistant managers and/or the charge nurses. That's my chain of command. Do they have a higher level of status? Of course they do. They have more education and they (usually) work longer hours, and of course they earn more. They deserve their status, without question. But my practice is not defined by them. Nursing and Medicine are separate, but complementary, practices. In the scenario at hand, if there was a doc with Kennedy, it would be the rules of the hospital (and the state) that would rule...not the docs directives. I remember one year we had a drill called a "code pink", which meant that a baby was missing. When that happens, staff are to block all stairwells, elevators, and exits. NOBODY is allowed to leave their location until the code was clear, and anyone who had a bag, suitcase, etc was searched. Well, during the drill, the CEO himself pretended as if he were leaving for the day. He walked right out the front door with his briefcase and whoever was watching that location allowed him to walk right by since, well, that was the CEO! After he was allowed to leave, he turned around and came back to the door, opened up his briefcase, and inside was a doll representing the missing baby. (They would usually do that until the doll was found, indicating a successful drill.) The point being, it doesn't matter who you are....when a baby is missing, you are not above the law/rules. What the hell do you know? But seriously this should put this discussion to a rest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 The doctors creds? You mean his degree, his license, and the laws that define and govern his (or her) scope of practice? Nurses have the exact same set of things. My scope of practice is very clearly defined by the Nurse Practice Act and the board of nursing for my state. That's the basis for why I feel as I do about this issue. A lot of RNs and LPNs (Lower Paid Nurses) go to schools where the education is task oriented. One of the (very few) advantages of going to one of the best schools in the country was that we had a focus on management and leadership. I used to believe as you did, that docs were my superiors. It's simply not the case, and many RNs have no idea how broad their scope of practice truly is. I'm sure the DOCS often think they are our superiors, but unless they are in my direct chain of command, they simply aren't. Hospitals have CNOs, Chief Nursing Officers, who report directly to the CEO. Typically beneath him or her would be the Director of Nursing. Then you have the assistant DON, followed by the unit managers, and then after that it's typically the assistant managers and/or the charge nurses. That's my chain of command. Do they have a higher level of status? Of course they do. They have more education and they (usually) work longer hours, and of course they earn more. They deserve their status, without question. But my practice is not defined by them. Nursing and Medicine are separate, but complementary, practices. In the scenario at hand, if there was a doc with Kennedy, it would be the rules of the hospital (and the state) that would rule...not the docs directives. I remember one year we had a drill called a "code pink", which meant that a baby was missing. When that happens, staff are to block all stairwells, elevators, and exits. NOBODY is allowed to leave their location until the code was clear, and anyone who had a bag, suitcase, etc was searched. Well, during the drill, the CEO himself pretended as if he were leaving for the day. He walked right out the front door with his briefcase and whoever was watching that location allowed him to walk right by since, well, that was the CEO! After he was allowed to leave, he turned around and came back to the door, opened up his briefcase, and inside was a doll representing the missing baby. (They would usually do that until the doll was found, indicating a successful drill.) The point being, it doesn't matter who you are....when a baby is missing, you are not above the law/rules. Then why not have bands and an alarm system like they did 14 years ago! Even tampering with the darn thing sets off bells and whistles. No need to lunge for a baby! I am not knocking you AJ... But you wonder where this world has gone mad in the new "church of the health care system." I used to think my sister was just being a hippy for wanting to have her babies at home and by a mid-wife. Just as we all are... We become a product of the "system." No doubt if I kicked that nurse, they probably wouldn't sue... Knowing that they can't get blood out of a stone. Now, a Kennedy... More power to them! Not that I mind seeing them take a fall. This is a case of "deep pockets." So that is all you have? Well, guess who comes off as the B word? My point was and is, conservatives would be up in arms if this had happened to one of theirs. You being a partisan hack would have fully supported the rights of the father. Frankly, if that was the case, I would have supported you... Well said! Not really knowing the facts of the case... But it was said that the nurse went to lunge for the baby. That is a judgement call on the nurses part. Not exonerating what the Kennedy did next... But the whole situation snowballed because of that judgement call (if that is what really happened). On another note and while I am ranting on "let the system take care of things for you." Not that I haven't preached about the merits of the system taking care of things... I was at Jay Peak this past winter... Went to the new water park there after skiing... Supposedly they got this "doll" floating around named "Timmy." WTF! Supposedly if you see it, do nothing... Let the lifeguard react to it! I mean, WTF! What kind of message does that send to the public! Where do we come up with these "training tools." Again... I am the ultra-liberal here??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 (edited) Then why not have bands and an alarm system like they did 14 years ago! Even tampering with the darn thing sets off bells and whistles. No need to lunge for a baby! I am not knocking you AJ... But you wonder where this world has gone mad in the new "church of the health care system." I used to think my sister was just being a hippy for wanting to have her babies at home and by a mid-wife. Just as we all are... We become a product of the "system." No doubt if I kicked that nurse, they probably wouldn't sue... Knowing that they can't get blood out of a stone. Now, a Kennedy... More power to them! Not that I mind seeing them take a fall. This is a case of "deep pockets." Well said! Not really knowing the facts of the case... But it was said that the nurse went to lunge for the baby. That is a judgement call on the nurses part. Not exonerating what the Kennedy did next... But the whole situation snowballed because of that judgement call (if that is what really happened). On another note and while I am ranting on "let the system take care of things for you." Not that I haven't preached about the merits of the system taking care of things... I was at Jay Peak this past winter... Went to the new water park there after skiing... Supposedly they got this "doll" floating around named "Timmy." WTF! Supposedly if you see it, do nothing... Let the lifeguard react to it! I mean, WTF! What kind of message does that send to the public! Where do we come up with these "training tools." Again... I am the ultra-liberal here??? Maybe this will put it in better perspective. The nurses claim the baby's head wasn't being supported and the one put her hand under it to support it. It wasn't a case of anyone "lunging". http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/46530526#46530526 Edited February 26, 2012 by 3rdnlng Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Maybe this will put it in better perspective. The nurses claim the baby's head wasn't being supported and the one put her hand under it to support it. It wasn't a case of anyone "lunging". Fair enough. In the end we really don't know what happened then. Everybody is gonna be in CYA mode. Both sides are wrong. End it and let it go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 So that is all you have? Well, guess who comes off as the B word? My point was and is, conservatives would be up in arms if this had happened to one of theirs. You being a partisan hack would have fully supported the rights of the father. Frankly, if that was the case, I would have supported you... Booster, you are the one that started the partisanship claims and the nastiness. I would take the same damn position regardless of who it was. You lefty guys are the ones that are making this partisan. You can't play it both ways and you can't tell me how I would react if it was a conservative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 After he was allowed to leave, he turned around and came back to the door, opened up his briefcase, and inside was a doll representing the missing baby. (They would usually do that until the doll was found, indicating a successful drill.) During training, the manufactures rep was telling us a story from an install he was on, where they also used a doll that had been tagged to test and demonstrate the system. One of the nurses had been a sprinter in college and said she was sure she could get through a doorway with the doll before it locked down. He said even though there was a lot of blood, she didn't break her nose when she slammed into the door. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 During training, the manufactures rep was telling us a story from an install he was on, where they also used a doll that had been tagged to test and demonstrate the system. One of the nurses had been a sprinter in college and said she was sure she could get through a doorway with the doll before it locked down. He said even though there was a lot of blood, she didn't break her nose when she slammed into the door. LOL, wow What the hell do you know? But seriously this should put this discussion to a rest. I still don't even know how I stumbled in here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 I still don't even know how I stumbled in here! You and me both brother! "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in!" I can give a rat's arse that it is a Kennedy. Both sides (in that I mean the regulatory establishment vs. the individual) are to blame here. Too many regs, too many lock downs, too many crazy's, too many people caught in the middle. Just have both parties say they are sorry and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajzepp Posted February 26, 2012 Share Posted February 26, 2012 Then why not have bands and an alarm system like they did 14 years ago! Even tampering with the darn thing sets off bells and whistles. No need to lunge for a baby! I am not knocking you AJ... But you wonder where this world has gone mad in the new "church of the health care system." I used to think my sister was just being a hippy for wanting to have her babies at home and by a mid-wife. I thought the babies at home/mid-wife thing was nuts too until one of my closest friends out of college becaame one. Now she's a midwife nurse practitioner (I think that's the correct title) and she impresses the hell out of me. As for the alams, I know in some of the ATL hospitals they have some pretty new technology in place but I don't recall what it was exactly. If I were in the situation with the Kennedy, my role would be to block his path as best I could without becoming physically aggressive, stay close to him, and calling security on my phone to report position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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