Now that Brady has passed Kelly in career yardage ...

[dave mcbride]

Kelly played two seasons in the USFL. In his first season, he threw for 5219 yards, 44 tds, and 26 INTs (63.0 percent completion percentage; 8.89 ypa). In his second season, he threw for 4623 yards, 39 tds, and 19 INTs (63.5 percent completion percentage; 8.15 ypa).

 

On top of his 35,624 NFL yards, he also threw 9842 in the USFL (roughly 45,500 total). He threw 237 TDs in the NFL, but 320 if you include the USFL.

 

Should he get any credit for this? It is the *pro* football hall of fame, after all (not the NFL hall of fame). Or was the USFL truly a low rent league, populated by a few high end,highly paid stars and sea of guys who couldn't make the NFL?

Edited September 24, 2011 by dave mcbride

[SelmonSmith6378]

As much as I love Kelly (I'm a UM fan) I have to say no. The USFL was an inferior league to the NFL. Yes, it had some great ones like Reggie White, but in the end, NFL defenses (Especially now that there are 32 of them) play to a higher standard.

[Fezmid]

As much as I love Kelly (I'm a UM fan) I have to say no. The USFL was an inferior league to the NFL. Yes, it had some great ones like Reggie White, but in the end, NFL defenses (Especially now that there are 32 of them) play to a higher standard.

 

But to Mcbride's point, Warren Moon's CFL stats were counted towards his HoF bid and I would argue that league is even more inferior than the USFL. Therefore, they really can't be dismissed entirely.

[SelmonSmith6378]

But to Mcbride's point, Warren Moon's CFL stats were counted towards his HoF bid and I would argue that league is even more inferior than the USFL. Therefore, they really can't be dismissed entirely.

 

I don;t think Moon's CFL stats should be counted towards his hall of fame bid either, and I agree that the CFL without a doubt is more inferior. The only CFL player I can name besides Moon is Simeon Rice, and he played there for half a year when his NFL days were over. I think neither should be counted, but that Kelly is a hall of famer either way.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

But to Mcbride's point, Warren Moon's CFL stats were counted towards his HoF bid and I would argue that league is even more inferior than the USFL. Therefore, they really can't be dismissed entirely.

In truth with a very few exceptions, it's really the NFL Hall of Fame with special dispensations for the league which became the NFL (the American Professional Football Association) and the AFL/AFC which became a part of the NFL.

 

I really doubt much weight is given to USFL/CFL participation.

 

But yes, Steve Young and Doug Flutie put up some numbers in the USFL and Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Jeff Garcia and former Bills OC Tom Clements arguably played the primes of their careers in the CFL.

 

On the list of most passing yards by North American Professional Quarterbacks (including all leagues), Warren Moon is 4th All-Time, Flutie is 6th, Jim Kelly is 13th, Jeff Garcia is 16th and Tom Clements is 23rd.

 

Steve Young doesn't make the top 25.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gridiron_football_quarterbacks_with_the_most_passing_yards

 

 

[Slackware]

But to Mcbride's point, Warren Moon's CFL stats were counted towards his HoF bid and I would argue that league is even more inferior than the USFL. Therefore, they really can't be dismissed entirely.

 

I do believe that the CFL is an inferior league. They play 18 games with like 8-10 teams, but I cannot agree that the CFL was even more inferior than the USFL. Thats kind of a ridiculous statement if you ask me. The Canadian game is a different game though. Different rules, different styles, different field, etc.. But the guys only got 3 downs. That has to count for something. And I think that you can find decent talent from the ranks of the CFL. And not all NFL players could go to the CFL and be successful. The USFL is different, they played the american game with vastly inferior talent and a lower budget.

[NoSaint]

Other than top ten stats lists- I'm not sure the point of including/excluding. It's part of the body of work but it's not apples to apples the same. Frankly stat lines are hard enoughto compare across eras yet alone leagues. Heck in the same era, same league, whats worth more in a season- 1,000 yards or 6 tds or an extra yard per attempt? It's about impact to the game while you played, not an arbitrary cut off in yardage while played in the early 90s, with secondary league stats counting at 60% conversion etc.... I think this is a prime example of why you need to look at the men not the stat lines.

 

I don;t think Moon's CFL stats should be counted towards his hall of fame bid either, and I agree that the CFL without a doubt is more inferior. The only CFL player I can name besides Moon is Simeon Rice, and he played there for half a year when his NFL days were over. I think neither should be counted, but that Kelly is a hall of famer either way.

 

I think you have to look at what he did. It's not the same but at some point the question comes up - what did he do in those missing years?

Edited September 24, 2011 by NoSaint

[Slackware]

 

Steve Young doesn't make the top 25.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gridiron_football_quarterbacks_with_the_most_passing_yards

 

What is that supposed to mean? How could he have anyway? in 15 years, he played in 169 games and made 143 starts. With such little playing time over a decade and a half, (individual teams played 239 games, 236 if you exclude the 3 strike games in 1987)USFL stats become a non factor. Cant expect anyone in those days to break 40k.

[RJ (not THAT RJ)]

Well, since Kelly was a first-ballot HOFer, and I do remember the stories at the time discussing his USFL stats, they did indeed play a role in his overall reputation, even if the yards do not count toward his totals.

[CardinalScotts]

But to Mcbride's point, Warren Moon's CFL stats were counted towards his HoF bid and I would argue that league is even more inferior than the USFL. Therefore, they really can't be dismissed entirely.

 

The league is so set up for passing the yardage has almost become irrelevant-

receptions are to the point 100 is the new 70- you can't even compare. Joe Montana said last week on the Steve Czaban show you almost have to consider throwing it on every down

[Slackware]

Other than top ten stats lists- I'm not sure the point of including/excluding. It's part of the body of work but it's not apples to apples the same. Frankly stat lines are hard enoughto compare across eras yet alone leagues. Heck in the same era, same league, whats worth more in a season- 1,000 yards or 6 tds or an extra yard per attempt? It's about impact to the game while you played, not an arbitrary cut off in yardage while played in the early 90s, with secondary league stats counting at 60% conversion etc.... I think this is a prime example of why you need to look at the men not the stat lines.

 

 

 

I think you have to look at what he did. It's not the same but at some point the question comes up - what did he do in those missing years?

 

This much is true. You also have to look at the offensive scheme the guy played in. Unless your throwing the ball 35+ times a game, west coast and ground and pound style offenses are not conducive to high passing yard totals so much as first downs, completion percentage, red zone efficiency, and fewer turnovers. Whereas a no-huddle shotgun offense in a spread formation or the run n' shoot offenses see 550+ attempts per year with about 58-63% completion percentage (higher in todays league) and routinely produces 4000+ yard passers with 25+ touchdowns and a lot of gutsy calls that result in sometimes lower 3rd down efficiency and more turnovers. (depending on the quarterback of course.)The win % is all that really matters i guess, but I happen to have an obsession with statistics that i cant seem to shake. QB rating might deserve a consideration too.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Slackware

[justnzane]

passing yardage in and of itself is not a great barometer of a QB's proficiency. Jake Plummer made a reputation of getting a lot of yardage when his Cards were down by 20 against soft Cover 4 schemes. Cam Newton on the total QBR had the worst rating of the week despite throwing for 400 yards.

 

Comparing yardage and attempts between eras is not a good thing either as Defensive players were allowed to hit the other team in the 70's and 80's. Today's rules are set in such a way to protect QB's and WR's and turn football into a sissy sport full of Calvin Klein models.

[KRC]

In truth with a very few exceptions, it's really the NFL Hall of Fame with special dispensations for the league which became the NFL (the American Professional Football Association) and the AFL/AFC which became a part of the NFL.

 

Just a clarification, no special dispensation required for the APFA, since it was not a separate league.

 

As far as the original point, voters pretty much use whatever criteria they want to get people elected. Whether they should use other criteria is a different story. I think that if you played major-league pro ball, that should be considered. However, I do not place a high priority on stats when it comes to HOF induction, so it really does not sway me much. I have always said that stats without context are meaningless.

[BADOLBILZ]

I do believe that the CFL is an inferior league. They play 18 games with like 8-10 teams, but I cannot agree that the CFL was even more inferior than the USFL. Thats kind of a ridiculous statement if you ask me. The Canadian game is a different game though. Different rules, different styles, different field, etc.. But the guys only got 3 downs. That has to count for something. And I think that you can find decent talent from the ranks of the CFL. And not all NFL players could go to the CFL and be successful. The USFL is different, they played the american game with vastly inferior talent and a lower budget.

 

When the USFL folded there was a mad scramble by the NFL for the talent. There were future Hall of Famers and tons of very good players who changed the balance of power in the NFL in the late 1980's and early 1990's. The Bills I believe had a half dozen former USFL players starting during their first SB season. I am glad for the CFL, but you clearly have no idea how much talent was in the USFL.

[drinkTHEkoolaid]

No its apples to oranges

 

But on the flip side is *

[Slackware]

When the USFL folded there was a mad scramble by the NFL for the talent. There were future Hall of Famers and tons of very good players who changed the balance of power in the NFL in the late 1980's and early 1990's. The Bills I believe had a half dozen former USFL players starting during their first SB season. I am glad for the CFL, but you clearly have no idea how much talent was in the USFL.

 

No, I am actually perfectly aware of how much talent was in the USFL: Jim Kelly, Steve Young, Bobby Hebert, Hershel Walker, Mike Rozier, Anthony Carter, Reggie White,Gary Anderson (RB), Doug Flutie, Mel Gray, (Both of them actually. The lesser known was a WR for the cards in the 70s and early 80s)Craig James, Vaughn Johnson and Sam Mills of the Dome Patrol,Gary Plummer, Kevin Mack, Nate Newton, our own curse Scott Norwood, Jo Jo Townsell, Doug Williams, Gary Zimmerman, etc... but I still believe that you cant say that the CFL was inferior to the USFL. The people I named were bright spots in an otherwise woefully inadequate talent pool. And again, the Canadian game is different enough from the american game that you cant compare them as simple as apples to apples. Yes the NFL obviously has much more talent but the USFL was filled by nfl washouts, no namers and a few young collage stars that were offered huge contracts to avoid the nfl. When it came down to it, the USFL simply served as a developmental league for the NFL. Most of the former USFL stars that made an impact in the nfl spent their adjustment period playing in a poorly funded, less competitive league that wasnt too far ahead of college in the talent pool. Developmental league.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Slackware

[Repulsif]

The only CFL player I can name besides Moon is Simeon Rice, and he played there for half a year when his NFL days were over. I think neither should be counted, but that Kelly is a hall of famer either way.

I can name Doug Flutie.

Who won the MVP several times

[San Jose Bills Fan]

What is that supposed to mean? How could he have anyway? in 15 years, he played in 169 games and made 143 starts. With such little playing time over a decade and a half, (individual teams played 239 games, 236 if you exclude the 3 strike games in 1987)USFL stats become a non factor. Cant expect anyone in those days to break 40k.

I stated that Steve Young was not in the top 25.

 

It was not meant to mean anything.

 

It was a simple statement of fact… in fact most of that post was informational, not editorial.

 

 

[Cotton Fitzsimmons]

Kelly played two seasons in the USFL. In his first season, he threw for 5219 yards, 44 tds, and 26 INTs (63.0 percent completion percentage; 8.89 ypa). In his second season, he threw for 4623 yards, 39 tds, and 19 INTs (63.5 percent completion percentage; 8.15 ypa).

 

On top of his 35,624 NFL yards, he also threw 9842 in the USFL (roughly 45,500 total). He threw 237 TDs in the NFL, but 320 if you include the USFL.

 

Should he get any credit for this? It is the *pro* football hall of fame, after all (not the NFL hall of fame). Or was the USFL truly a low rent league, populated by a few high end,highly paid stars and sea of guys who couldn't make the NFL?

 

It's hard to compare stats from one era to the next. There's so many variables involved. Obviously when Kelly played the USFL was an option that was out there for guys. On the other hand, one could argue that during Kelly's prime we had only 28 NFL teams vs. 32 today, so the NFL is more dilluted today. Or you could argue that athletes are getting bigger, stronger, and faster so it's actually a higher level of play today.

 

I think ultimately the question raised with regard to rival leagues has to be put in the same context. Was that league viable in that era? Clearly the AFL was as it eventually became par of the NFL and those stats should be taken to account. I would say the USFL performance of Kelly should be taken into acct. but perhaps to a lesser degree. That league had talent in it and some real marquee players. Now fast forward to more recently and look at leagues like the XFL, and obviously that was a joke.

 

Jim was clearly amongst the best of his era, when some guys were playing in the USFL, so it should be considered. Had Brady played 20-30 years ago, he definitely would not have put up as many yards as he has. His benchmark for greatness is different as the landscape of the game has changed.