Beerball Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 link Financing still has to be obtained & I wouldn't be surprised by a costly cleanup effort. The site once housed Twin Cities Army Ammunitions Plant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 link Financing still has to be obtained & I wouldn't be surprised by a costly cleanup effort. The site once housed Twin Cities Army Ammunitions Plant. Likely another example of the significant subsidies provided by us taxpayers to the rich guys who are team owners in the NFL. We see it here on a small potatoes basis (compared to the megabillions which the TV networks and the players produce for the team owners) here in Erie County where Ralph cries small market poverty and then does not sell the naming rights as County taxpayers name the stadium after him. The big ticket government subsidy for the NFL is where unlike sports like MLB and the NHL who pay for the training and development of athletes, this done often through state supported schools like UB which laid out big tax dollars to go Division I. One wonders when folks who seem to whine about the owners being "forced" into a position where they have suspended football unilaterally (in case folks did not notice the NFLPA position is to retain the current agreement and when the lower court found in their favor football was restored for us fans). It is actually the players and their union which is calling for a free market but it is the owners who ran kicking and screaming from the last decert threat to embrace a social compact system over the free market. It will be quite interesting if the truly aggrieved party in this fight of billionaires vs. millionaires, the college athlete stands up as says that it is simply un-American the way the draft forces individuals to negotiate with one and only one business. The NFL and their PARTNERS against individual liberty even agreed to bar adults from signing contracts until they are 21. This is why decertification is a potent threat because our courts have allowed this restraint on individual trade because the NFLPA is certified to represent the rights of players and they provide a figleaf allowing this restraint on individuals. It is part of the reason why the owners stance is so foolish in that if they get what they want in terms of beating down the NFLPA I really doubt that any court is going to be able to allow individual and free market rights to be so trampled by the welfare queen team owners. Thus stadium subsidy is simply another version of this travesty against what has made America such an economic power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 10, 2011 Share Posted May 10, 2011 (edited) Well…it is a LOTTA money: $407 million from the Vikings $300 million from the state of Minnesota $350 million from Ramsey County, financed by a half-cent sales tax increase. And by the way, the population of Ramsey County, Minnesota is roughly half of the population of Erie County. Edited May 10, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) Well…it is a LOTTA money: $407 million from the Vikings $300 million from the state of Minnesota $350 million from Ramsey County, financed by a half-cent sales tax increase. And by the way, the population of Ramsey County, Minnesota is roughly half of the population of Erie County. I'd guess in taxes from hotels, food, merch, job creation etc- it's not the worst deal out there but I cant claim any particular knowledge on financing, or tax revenue- I'd be curious to hear more Edited May 11, 2011 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest three3 Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Likely another example of the significant subsidies provided by us taxpayers to the rich guys who are team owners in the NFL. We see it here on a small potatoes basis (compared to the megabillions which the TV networks and the players produce for the team owners) here in Erie County where Ralph cries small market poverty and then does not sell the naming rights as County taxpayers name the stadium after him. The big ticket government subsidy for the NFL is where unlike sports like MLB and the NHL who pay for the training and development of athletes, this done often through state supported schools like UB which laid out big tax dollars to go Division I. One wonders when folks who seem to whine about the owners being "forced" into a position where they have suspended football unilaterally (in case folks did not notice the NFLPA position is to retain the current agreement and when the lower court found in their favor football was restored for us fans). It is actually the players and their union which is calling for a free market but it is the owners who ran kicking and screaming from the last decert threat to embrace a social compact system over the free market. It will be quite interesting if the truly aggrieved party in this fight of billionaires vs. millionaires, the college athlete stands up as says that it is simply un-American the way the draft forces individuals to negotiate with one and only one business. The NFL and their PARTNERS against individual liberty even agreed to bar adults from signing contracts until they are 21. This is why decertification is a potent threat because our courts have allowed this restraint on individual trade because the NFLPA is certified to represent the rights of players and they provide a figleaf allowing this restraint on individuals. It is part of the reason why the owners stance is so foolish in that if they get what they want in terms of beating down the NFLPA I really doubt that any court is going to be able to allow individual and free market rights to be so trampled by the welfare queen team owners. Thus stadium subsidy is simply another version of this travesty against what has made America such an economic power. another epic take by one of the best posters on the interwebs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 I'd guess in taxes from hotels, food, merch, job creation etc- it's not the worst deal out there but I cant claim any particular knowledge on financing, or tax revenue- I'd be curious to hear more Curious to see who is responsible for cost overruns. Likely another example of the significant subsidies provided by us taxpayers to the rich guys who are team owners in the NFL. We see it here on a small potatoes basis (compared to the megabillions which the TV networks and the players produce for the team owners) here in Erie County where Ralph cries small market poverty and then does not sell the naming rights as County taxpayers name the stadium after him. The big ticket government subsidy for the NFL is where unlike sports like MLB and the NHL who pay for the training and development of athletes, this done often through state supported schools like UB which laid out big tax dollars to go Division I. One wonders when folks who seem to whine about the owners being "forced" into a position where they have suspended football unilaterally (in case folks did not notice the NFLPA position is to retain the current agreement and when the lower court found in their favor football was restored for us fans). It is actually the players and their union which is calling for a free market but it is the owners who ran kicking and screaming from the last decert threat to embrace a social compact system over the free market. It will be quite interesting if the truly aggrieved party in this fight of billionaires vs. millionaires, the college athlete stands up as says that it is simply un-American the way the draft forces individuals to negotiate with one and only one business. The NFL and their PARTNERS against individual liberty even agreed to bar adults from signing contracts until they are 21. This is why decertification is a potent threat because our courts have allowed this restraint on individual trade because the NFLPA is certified to represent the rights of players and they provide a figleaf allowing this restraint on individuals. It is part of the reason why the owners stance is so foolish in that if they get what they want in terms of beating down the NFLPA I really doubt that any court is going to be able to allow individual and free market rights to be so trampled by the welfare queen team owners. Thus stadium subsidy is simply another version of this travesty against what has made America such an economic power. Knowing that there are other cities hoping for NFL franchises what do you propose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shoretalk Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 So ... Are they cutting education? Are their police and fire departments depleted? Are the roadways filled with potholes? And, are the taxpayers there screaming about the cost of government? So, for giving in to corporate blackmail ... to billionaire bosses who want their rings kissed ... for 8 real football games a year ... at a cost to taxpayers of more than $2 million dollars per game (a 20 year stadium life) plus roadway development ... The people of Minnesota will be able to pay more than $100 per person per game ... And, to think the players and owners are kicking and screaming over who gets the bonus millions while we keep paying more and more ... I had hoped we were at the end of communities and states financing stadiums but an awful example is being established by thus decision (perhaps the Vikings had photo's) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Curious to see who is responsible for cost overruns. Knowing that there are other cities hoping for NFL franchises what do you propose? Good questions. Any big business gets breaks to draw it to a specific city, I just can't speak on any details of what's customary and where the break-even points are. When it comes down to it- for some cities, even at huge subsidies, the revenue they make from having a team must make a decent ROI. Obviously not always, but I imagine in many cases it is profitable, even if it would be more profitable to not invest as often as owners like to rebuild. A winning franchise can do wonders for a struggling economy- I see it first hand here in new orleans daily. In an interesting subsidy, new orleans worked out a deal to give benson one of the abandoned towers downtown on the cheap, and signed a huge lease in it for city offices. This in exchange for a new saints lease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodeMonkey Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Sounds like another monster like in NE and Dallas. They still must think these things are a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulled Hammies Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Here is another link to the Minneapolis Tribune. Since this is an EPA Superfund site, I didn't think they would be able to serve food. Plus, Arden Hills does not have the infrastructure to support a stadium without a lot more spending. Minneapolis has a great light rail system but it does not go to Arden Hills. I still hope something goes through. The Vikings are a regional team bringing in fans from North and South Dakota, Iowa and Wisconsin. I grew up in South Dakota and lived in downtown Minneapolis. It was great, but no tailgating for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
San Jose Bills Fan Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 (edited) I'd guess in taxes from hotels, food, merch, job creation etc- it's not the worst deal out there but I cant claim any particular knowledge on financing, or tax revenue- I'd be curious to hear more They kind of have a gun to their heads…they're damned either way…overpay or lose the team. I remember seeing an article in one of the financial magazines or maybe it was Sports Business Journal which basically stated that the economic impact is almost always overstated because everyone is trying to justify/rationalize the project. The same article said that these types of stadium projects are not beneficial to the communities which have them…they ultimately cost more than they generate…but that the great intangible is the benefit of having a major pro sports team to call your own. So ... Are they cutting education? Are their police and fire departments depleted? Are the roadways filled with potholes? And, are the taxpayers there screaming about the cost of government? So, for giving in to corporate blackmail ... to billionaire bosses who want their rings kissed ... for 8 real football games a year ... at a cost to taxpayers of more than $2 million dollars per game (a 20 year stadium life) plus roadway development ... The people of Minnesota will be able to pay more than $100 per person per game ... And, to think the players and owners are kicking and screaming over who gets the bonus millions while we keep paying more and more ... I had hoped we were at the end of communities and states financing stadiums but an awful example is being established by thus decision (perhaps the Vikings had photo's) It did seem like it was trending away from public subsidies to pro sports teams for awhile…the Magowan family built Pac Bell Park (now AT&T Park in San Francisco purely from private funds…but that was really an act of altruism. NFL Owners know they can create a bidding war between communities and most of them think nothing of doing so. I think we're seeing a greater contribution of private (owner's) funds to some of these projects but they still cost the city/county/state a helluva lot of money. Edited May 11, 2011 by San Jose Bills Fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hplarrm Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Curious to see who is responsible for cost overruns. Knowing that there are other cities hoping for NFL franchises what do you propose? My proposal is the the NFLPA is in the midst of a strategy to get replacement owners My personal hope is that the NFLPA takes a lesson from the NFLPA of the late 80s and is thinking about how by thinking outside of the old AFL-CIO union style they can totally remake how the NFL is run to the benefit of fans like me and other Bills lovers and to the players financial benefit. The team owners were likely full of themselves and feeling like true captains of industry after they simply crushed the old AFL-CIO style NFLPA led by Ed Garvey. However, the owners overplayed their hand in two ways in that they kicked the butt of the NFLPA so badly that the membership was willing to consider radical proposals like the one to decertify which was designed by a bunch of smart NYC lawyers. The second mistake the team owners made was that they had put in place a plan which saw the colleges (primarly led by taxpayer subsidy pay the cost of training and developing young athletes into NFL players). The NFL took advantage of this subsidy to get the league to pay for training and development. but the team owners got a situation where they did not contract with them until they had been adults. The NFLPA is making them pay for it right now. If the union's goal is really too weaken but not kill the owners they can possibly parley this dispute into building what I call the NewFL where the new teams are owner by: 1. New wealthy individuals, or corporations, or the TV networks, or municipalities, or the players themselves. The owners basically provide with either management or capital. As the Packers showed the owners are outmoded as essential for either role. My proposal is replace the current owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bananathumb Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 Likely another example of the significant subsidies provided by us taxpayers to the rich guys who are team owners in the NFL. We see it here on a small potatoes basis (compared to the megabillions which the TV networks and the players produce for the team owners) here in Erie County where Ralph cries small market poverty and then does not sell the naming rights as County taxpayers name the stadium after him. The big ticket government subsidy for the NFL is where unlike sports like MLB and the NHL who pay for the training and development of athletes, this done often through state supported schools like UB which laid out big tax dollars to go Division I. One wonders when folks who seem to whine about the owners being "forced" into a position where they have suspended football unilaterally (in case folks did not notice the NFLPA position is to retain the current agreement and when the lower court found in their favor football was restored for us fans). It is actually the players and their union which is calling for a free market but it is the owners who ran kicking and screaming from the last decert threat to embrace a social compact system over the free market. It will be quite interesting if the truly aggrieved party in this fight of billionaires vs. millionaires, the college athlete stands up as says that it is simply un-American the way the draft forces individuals to negotiate with one and only one business. The NFL and their PARTNERS against individual liberty even agreed to bar adults from signing contracts until they are 21. This is why decertification is a potent threat because our courts have allowed this restraint on individual trade because the NFLPA is certified to represent the rights of players and they provide a figleaf allowing this restraint on individuals. It is part of the reason why the owners stance is so foolish in that if they get what they want in terms of beating down the NFLPA I really doubt that any court is going to be able to allow individual and free market rights to be so trampled by the welfare queen team owners. Thus stadium subsidy is simply another version of this travesty against what has made America such an economic power. Taxpayers like those in Erie County should be suing owners like Wilson into the stone age if this lockout continues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted May 11, 2011 Author Share Posted May 11, 2011 My proposal is the the NFLPA is in the midst of a strategy to get replacement owners My personal hope is that the NFLPA takes a lesson from the NFLPA of the late 80s and is thinking about how by thinking outside of the old AFL-CIO union style they can totally remake how the NFL is run to the benefit of fans like me and other Bills lovers and to the players financial benefit. The team owners were likely full of themselves and feeling like true captains of industry after they simply crushed the old AFL-CIO style NFLPA led by Ed Garvey. However, the owners overplayed their hand in two ways in that they kicked the butt of the NFLPA so badly that the membership was willing to consider radical proposals like the one to decertify which was designed by a bunch of smart NYC lawyers. The second mistake the team owners made was that they had put in place a plan which saw the colleges (primarly led by taxpayer subsidy pay the cost of training and developing young athletes into NFL players). The NFL took advantage of this subsidy to get the league to pay for training and development. but the team owners got a situation where they did not contract with them until they had been adults. The NFLPA is making them pay for it right now. If the union's goal is really too weaken but not kill the owners they can possibly parley this dispute into building what I call the NewFL where the new teams are owner by: 1. New wealthy individuals, or corporations, or the TV networks, or municipalities, or the players themselves. The owners basically provide with either management or capital. As the Packers showed the owners are outmoded as essential for either role. My proposal is replace the current owners. How will it be determined where these replacement owners play their games? You will end up with an X cities bidding war (X is the number of teams). Do you think that no public money will be throw at the replacement owners? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted May 11, 2011 Share Posted May 11, 2011 My proposal is the the NFLPA is in the midst of a strategy to get replacement owners If the union's goal is really too weaken but not kill the owners they can possibly parley this dispute into building what I call the NewFL where the new teams are owner by: 1. New wealthy individuals the owners are outmoded . My proposal is replace the current owners. with.....new owners!! another epic take by one of the best posters on the interwebs Funniest post of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted May 12, 2011 Share Posted May 12, 2011 Likely another example of the significant subsidies provided by us taxpayers to the rich guys who are team owners in the NFL. We see it here on a small potatoes basis (compared to the megabillions which the TV networks and the players produce for the team owners) here in Erie County where Ralph cries small market poverty and then does not sell the naming rights as County taxpayers name the stadium after him. The big ticket government subsidy for the NFL is where unlike sports like MLB and the NHL who pay for the training and development of athletes, this done often through state supported schools like UB which laid out big tax dollars to go Division I. One wonders when folks who seem to whine about the owners being "forced" into a position where they have suspended football unilaterally (in case folks did not notice the NFLPA position is to retain the current agreement and when the lower court found in their favor football was restored for us fans). It is actually the players and their union which is calling for a free market but it is the owners who ran kicking and screaming from the last decert threat to embrace a social compact system over the free market. It will be quite interesting if the truly aggrieved party in this fight of billionaires vs. millionaires, the college athlete stands up as says that it is simply un-American the way the draft forces individuals to negotiate with one and only one business. The NFL and their PARTNERS against individual liberty even agreed to bar adults from signing contracts until they are 21. This is why decertification is a potent threat because our courts have allowed this restraint on individual trade because the NFLPA is certified to represent the rights of players and they provide a figleaf allowing this restraint on individuals. It is part of the reason why the owners stance is so foolish in that if they get what they want in terms of beating down the NFLPA I really doubt that any court is going to be able to allow individual and free market rights to be so trampled by the welfare queen team owners. Thus stadium subsidy is simply another version of this travesty against what has made America such an economic power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Hansen Forever Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 Here is another link to the Minneapolis Tribune. Since this is an EPA Superfund site, I didn't think they would be able to serve food. Plus, Arden Hills does not have the infrastructure to support a stadium without a lot more spending. Minneapolis has a great light rail system but it does not go to Arden Hills. I still hope something goes through. The Vikings are a regional team bringing in fans from North and South Dakota, Iowa and Wisconsin. I grew up in South Dakota and lived in downtown Minneapolis. It was great, but no tailgating for some reason. I retired and lived in Minneapolis, my wife is still there while I'm doing missionary work. The Arden Hills site is a great location, right off I-35W with County Rd 10 and US 10 intersecting nearby. I-694 is 4 miles south. Easy on and off ramps and no Minneapolis parking fees. Most parking lots downtown charge in excess of $50 per car for the privilege of parking without any tailgating allowed. The Metropolitan Council is seething with anger about being outwitted on this site. They draw taxation rights from the Metrodome and are pushing hard to get it overturned and the Metrodome rebuilt. Parking hassles are nothing compared to driving downtown before, during or after a game. It's impossible. People complain about RWS, but you guys haven't seen anything. Driving in MPLS is nuts anyway. I have a friend who is part of the deal to move them to Arden Hills and they have been talking about having the site connected to the Hiawatha Light Rail. It has been proposed to build a line from downtown to Hinkley and perhaps Duluth, and this might be the impetus. I would love to see it and screw the MetCouncil. People could tailgate and have an interestate ramp right off site. No more parking vampires and pissy councilmen trying to stop tailgating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fezmid Posted May 13, 2011 Share Posted May 13, 2011 I retired and lived in Minneapolis, my wife is still there while I'm doing missionary work. The Arden Hills site is a great location, right off I-35W with County Rd 10 and US 10 intersecting nearby. I-694 is 4 miles south. Easy on and off ramps and no Minneapolis parking fees. Most parking lots downtown charge in excess of $50 per car for the privilege of parking without any tailgating allowed. The Metropolitan Council is seething with anger about being outwitted on this site. They draw taxation rights from the Metrodome and are pushing hard to get it overturned and the Metrodome rebuilt. Parking hassles are nothing compared to driving downtown before, during or after a game. It's impossible. People complain about RWS, but you guys haven't seen anything. Driving in MPLS is nuts anyway. I have a friend who is part of the deal to move them to Arden Hills and they have been talking about having the site connected to the Hiawatha Light Rail. It has been proposed to build a line from downtown to Hinkley and perhaps Duluth, and this might be the impetus. I would love to see it and screw the MetCouncil. People could tailgate and have an interestate ramp right off site. No more parking vampires and pissy councilmen trying to stop tailgating. Agreed -- driving in downtown Minneapolis is a nightmare. It can easily take you 30 minutes to go 4 blocks during rush hour. Arden Hills will allow people to tailgate once again too -- which will be awesome, assuming the fans aren't too wimpy at this point. I'm definitely in favor of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BfloBillsFan Posted May 17, 2011 Share Posted May 17, 2011 (edited) Agreed -- driving in downtown Minneapolis is a nightmare. It can easily take you 30 minutes to go 4 blocks during rush hour. Arden Hills will allow people to tailgate once again too -- which will be awesome, assuming the fans aren't too wimpy at this point. I'm definitely in favor of it. According to ESPN, Goodell said the NFL will help fund part of the 1.1 billion dollar stadium and keep the franchise in Minnesota. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=6559409 Do you think we can get a similar statement/commitment from Goodell to keep NY state's only NFL team in Buffalo please? Edited May 17, 2011 by MotownBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts