Toronto deal paying off for Bills

[metzelaars_lives]

This is the biggest load of crap I've heard. So, Brandon wants me to believe, that, because of the crap game in Toronto, that almost every Bills fan hates (both Candians and Buffalonians), has inspired more fans to come to Buffalo? For what reason? They were awed by the crap that takes place in Rogers Centre? I'm calling BS. That's why he won't give numbers.

 

Total load of bull. How many people really believe the crap in Toronto inspired new fans to become season ticket holders? If they have taken in a game in Buffalo, yeah, I can see it. But inspired from the game in Toronto.......yeah right.

 

I was thinking the same thing when I read the article. So because the Bills have played two miserable and one decent game that they lost in Toronto, this has inspired people in Southern Ontario to go to more games at Rich Stadium? I don't understand the connection. It's not like these people didn't already know about the Bills and if they didn't, those three games certainly wouldn't have inspired them to want to go out and buy season tickets.

[Mr. WEO]

#1- even Bill Polian says 18 games is "fait accompli"....it's going to happen , it's just a matter of when..... as soon as the players get their revenue cut, retired health insurance, less OTA's, another bye week, increased roster size, etc....

 

#2- not only will Rogers do the deal again...i look for the next deal to double to 10 years and increase to 2 regular season games (the pre-season game will probably be eliminated).

 

#3- the increase in canadians at the Ralph is due to Marketing and advertising the best game in sports. the crowd in Toronto at the Rogers Centre will gradually become more Pro-Buffalo once we get into a winning cycle. as far as ticket prices go, the Maple Leafs charge considerably more than the Sabres and yet Leaf tix are tough to come by.

 

#4- there is one significant down side to this arrangement. home teams enjoy a significant competitive advantage with crowd noise that forces the away team into mistakes. it will take some time before the Rogers Centre crowd equals the Ralph.

The last offer by the owners was there would be no implimentation of an 18 game season for at two years and beyond that only with the consent of the players/union (which means never). Look it up.

 

Rogers has to be losing money on this deal. Why would they sign up for that again?

 

#1- defacto, each game is a sellout....the bills have all the money in their pockets.

 

#2- defacto, each game is a sellout....no blackout.

 

#3- any season ticket holder will tell you that there are lots of empty seats for all December games at the Raplh.

 

#4- you do bring up a valid point tho....actual attendance in Toronto is a concern. the game is new, ticket prices are very high, the bills are a losing team.....all correctable.

 

Though Ralphie is paid as if they were, these games are not sold out--not even "de fact"--especially if your are the Rogers folks. The Bill sdon't play in Toronto in the winter.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing when I read the article. So because the Bills have played two miserable and one decent game that they lost in Toronto, this has inspired people in Southern Ontario to go to more games at Rich Stadium? I don't understand the connection. It's not like these people didn't already know about the Bills and if they didn't, those three games certainly wouldn't have inspired them to want to go out and buy season tickets.

This is Brandon trying to convince some why it was such a great idea to take away a home game and give it to another city so the owner could pocket a huge chunk of cash.

[dwight in philly]

The last offer by the owners was there would be no implimentation of an 18 game season for at two years and beyond that only with the consent of the players/union (which means never). Look it up.

 

Rogers has to be losing money on this deal. Why would they sign up for that again?

 

 

 

Though Ralphie is paid as if they were, these games are not sold out--not even "de fact"--especially if your are the Rogers folks. The Bill sdon't play in Toronto in the winter.

 

 

 

This is Brandon trying to convince some why it was such a great idea to take away a home game and give it to another city so the owner could pocket a huge chunk of cash.

absolutely! just a money grab, no matter how they spin it. torontonians prefer coming to the ralph, brandon is spitting into the wind.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Are they Bills fans or NFL fans?

 

of the real games I've seen in Totonto, the fans cheered more for the Bills opponent than they cheered for the Bills

[dwight in philly]

Are they Bills fans or NFL fans?

 

of the real games I've seen in Totonto, the fans cheered more for the Bills opponent than they cheered for the Bills

that is the thing that absolutely frosts my a$$., LOSING THE HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE! that is what so irritating, sacrificing the advantage of playing in the ralph for extra cash. when is enough, enough , for ralph? that is why the organization's commitment to winning can come into question , for that, and other dubious decisions made over the years.

Edited March 31, 2011 by dwight in philly

[papazoid]

The last offer by the owners was there would be no implimentation of an 18 game season for at two years and beyond that only with the consent of the players/union (which means never). Look it up.

 

Rogers has to be losing money on this deal. Why would they sign up for that again?

 

 

 

Though Ralphie is paid as if they were, these games are not sold out--not even "de fact"--especially if your are the Rogers folks. The Bill sdon't play in Toronto in the winter.

 

 

 

This is Brandon trying to convince some why it was such a great idea to take away a home game and give it to another city so the owner could pocket a huge chunk of cash.

 

#1- they are sellouts...plain and simple.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/11/30/daily12.html

 

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2010/11/Issue-41/Franchises/Bills-Sell-Out-Rogers-Centre-But-Lack-Home-Field-Advantage.aspx

 

#2- you are correct about the 18 games in current offer.....but that may or may not be in the final offer. what is certain, is that they will be looking for ways to increase revenue....and playing 18 games over 20 weeks with 2 byes is the best way to accomplish that. when the players get "theirs" they will agree. time will tell. btw, in the 2006 cba, the players already agreed to an 18 game schedule.

 

#3- the NFL plays regular season games in London, England and Mexico city......heck, the NY Jets and NY Giants play ALL their home games in another state. Green Bay used to play games in Milwaukee.

Edited March 31, 2011 by papazoid

[Al Czervik]

I am also a Canadian Bills fan, about 4.5 hours away from the Ralph. I've been making a trip for 1-2 Bills games a year for the past 12 years or so, and I can speak for myself and a number of other Bills fans that thought Toronto is 2 hours closer, the vast majority of us have ZERO interest in attending a game in Toronto.

 

There is absolutely no comparison in the atmosphere inside and outside the stadiums between the Ralph and Rogers Centre. If anything, most of us feel alienated and insulted that this is nothing more than a cash grab by a greedy corporation that we refuse to participate in. You can make an overnight trip to Orchard Park for the same price as a ticket in Toronto. And we blame Rogers for that, not the Bills.

 

The reason there are more opponents fans at the games is because they are all people who would never get to see their teams otherwise. The real Bills fans around here head to the real deal Bills Country to get our fix.

 

If the prices were more comparable would that change things? Perhaps, but there is no way you could ever confuse the two, when you're at a game at the Ralph you know you're at an NFL game. Toronto has a lot to learn about the NFL.

 

I don't blame you guys for being upset about them taking away one of your home games either.

 

Anyway, I read a lot here, don't post much, but though this was a worthy topic. Here's to the Bills staying where they are forever! Lets Go Buffalo!

[dwight in philly]

I am also a Canadian Bills fan, about 4.5 hours away from the Ralph. I've been making a trip for 1-2 Bills games a year for the past 12 years or so, and I can speak for myself and a number of other Bills fans that thought Toronto is 2 hours closer, the vast majority of us have ZERO interest in attending a game in Toronto.

 

There is absolutely no comparison in the atmosphere inside and outside the stadiums between the Ralph and Rogers Centre. If anything, most of us feel alienated and insulted that this is nothing more than a cash grab by a greedy corporation that we refuse to participate in. You can make an overnight trip to Orchard Park for the same price as a ticket in Toronto. And we blame Rogers for that, not the Bills.

 

The reason there are more opponents fans at the games is because they are all people who would never get to see their teams otherwise. The real Bills fans around here head to the real deal Bills Country to get our fix.

 

If the prices were more comparable would that change things? Perhaps, but there is no way you could ever confuse the two, when you're at a game at the Ralph you know you're at an NFL game. Toronto has a lot to learn about the NFL.

 

I don't blame you guys for being upset about them taking away one of your home games either.

 

Anyway, I read a lot here, don't post much, but though this was a worthy topic. Here's to the Bills staying where they are forever! Lets Go Buffalo!

amen brother! thanks for your input! (and for supporting the bills!)

[metzelaars_lives]

amen brother! thanks for your input! (and for supporting the bills!)

 

I agree. Classy post. It's gonna be an uphill battle to keep the Bills in Buffalo however, when Obama is trying to take them away from us. Just like he's trying to do with our guns. And our freedom.

Edited March 31, 2011 by metzelaars_lives

[Heitz]

I was thinking the same thing when I read the article. So because the Bills have played two miserable and one decent game that they lost in Toronto, this has inspired people in Southern Ontario to go to more games at Rich Stadium? I don't understand the connection. It's not like these people didn't already know about the Bills and if they didn't, those three games certainly wouldn't have inspired them to want to go out and buy season tickets.

So if not for the Toronto game and increased marketing to the Southern Ontario market, what would you attribute the increase of season tickets in that region to?

 

Clearly something is working and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the product on the field the past 3 years. Maybe it's just that Fitzbeard that they couldn't resist...

[dwight in philly]

So if not for the Toronto game and increased marketing to the Southern Ontario market, what would you attribute the increase of season tickets in that region to?

 

Clearly something is working and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the product on the field the past 3 years. Maybe it's just that Fitzbeard that they couldn't resist...

i would submit that it can be attributed to the "game day experience" at the ralph. fresh air, grilling, beer, all adds to the mix. sure the team has sucked overall, but going to the game , cant beat it. tailgating is the best i have ever been a part of. ask those that went to the games in toronto about "tailgating"!

[Heitz]

i would submit that it can be attributed to the "game day experience" at the ralph. fresh air, grilling, beer, all adds to the mix. sure the team has sucked overall, but going to the game , cant beat it. tailgating is the best i have ever been a part of. ask those that went to the games in toronto about "tailgating"!

Oh I'm definitely with you there! But this is a 44% growth in the past three years, something had to drive that growth. Tailgating didn't suddenly get better (or did they legalize weed and enact a "Cash for 'Gating" law in Buffalo? , so I'm not convinced that it would drive the numbers that high.

 

I guess I'm just curious because several people in this thread are calling the rationale for the numbers BS. If it's BS, what's the theory behind the growth?

[metzelaars_lives]

So if not for the Toronto game and increased marketing to the Southern Ontario market, what would you attribute the increase of season tickets in that region to?

 

Clearly something is working and I'm pretty sure it wasn't the product on the field the past 3 years. Maybe it's just that Fitzbeard that they couldn't resist...

 

My honest opinion? I think that # is completely and utterly fabricated. Hey let's ask a season ticket holder: do you see close to a 50% increase in Ontario license plates over the last three years? Didn't think so. There's been a ton of Ontario plates at that stadium since I was a kid going in the mid-to-late 80's. To say that this Toronto series is in any way responsible for a surge in Ontario season ticket holders is ludicrous. That being said, I agree with everyone else that the Toronto series is good for the long-term viability of the franchise, but to have Russ Brandon try and insinuate that a bunch of hockey fans up in Toronto were watching that Bills-Dolphins thriller a few years ago and said, "you know what, let's start driving down past customs on Sundays to go to games in Orchard Park" is insane.

[ICanSleepWhenI'mDead]

#1- they are sellouts...plain and simple.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/11/30/daily12.html

 

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2010/11/Issue-41/Franchises/Bills-Sell-Out-Rogers-Centre-But-Lack-Home-Field-Advantage.aspx

 

#2- you are correct about the 18 games in current offer.....but that may or may not be in the final offer. what is certain, is that they will be looking for ways to increase revenue....and playing 18 games over 20 weeks with 2 byes is the best way to accomplish that. when the players get "theirs" they will agree. time will tell. btw, in the 2006 cba, the players already agreed to an 18 game schedule.

 

#3- the NFL plays regular season games in London, England and Mexico city......heck, the NY Jets and NY Giants play ALL their home games in another state. Green Bay used to play games in Milwaukee.

 

 

Not saying it's gonna happen, but you could make an argument that if the Bills started to play all of their home games in Toronto, the NFL would not even consider that to be a relocation of the franchise. If the Bills play games in any stadium located within 75 miles of the city limits of Buffalo, that stadium is by definition considered to be within the existing franchise's "Home Territory," as that term has historically been defined in the Constitution and Bylaws of the NFL. Isn't the existing Toronto stadium less than 75 miles from the closest part of the Buffalo city limits (as the crow flies)?

[Mr. WEO]

#1- they are sellouts...plain and simple.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/stories/2009/11/30/daily12.html

 

http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2010/11/Issue-41/Franchises/Bills-Sell-Out-Rogers-Centre-But-Lack-Home-Field-Advantage.aspx

 

#2- you are correct about the 18 games in current offer.....but that may or may not be in the final offer. what is certain, is that they will be looking for ways to increase revenue....and playing 18 games over 20 weeks with 2 byes is the best way to accomplish that. when the players get "theirs" they will agree. time will tell. btw, in the 2006 cba, the players already agreed to an 18 game schedule.

 

#3- the NFL plays regular season games in London, England and Mexico city......heck, the NY Jets and NY Giants play ALL their home games in another state. Green Bay used to play games in Milwaukee.

You should read the links you provide:

 

BILLS A TOUGH SELL IN TORONTO: The GLOBE & MAIL's Stephen Brunt writes tickets for a "one-off game, at big-time prices, are going to be a tough sell until locals find a way to stake a real or imagined emotional claim" to the Bills. Sources said that "about 10,000" of the announced crowd "were giveaways, but there were real human beings in nearly all of those seats" (GLOBE & MAIL, 11/8). REUTERS' Frank Pingue noted Toronto "has not fallen in love with the idea of paying exorbitant prices to watch a team that has not made the playoffs in a decade." There was "plenty of buzz when the Toronto-based games were announced in 2007 but the initial excitement fizzled out," and prior to yesterday's game, the Bills had "yet to attract a sellout crowd in a stadium that seats some 7,500 fewer than the NFL's smallest venue." Despite "efforts to promote games, the mood inside the Rogers Centre" for the four games prior to yesterday's was "far from the raucous atmosphere typical at most NFL stadiums, and the talk has mostly revolved around poor attendance"

 

If the real humans were in the seats (though it certainly didn't look like it), it is likely they were fans of the opposing team:

 

The Bills and Bears yesterday played in front of a sellout crowd of 50,746 at Rogers Centre for the latest edition of the Bills Toronto Series, but the Bills "will tell you privately that playing at the Rogers Centre is hardly a home-field advantage," according to Robert MacLeod of the GLOBE & MAIL. The Bears' fans "clearly outnumbered those favouring the Bills, something that never would have happened in Buffalo at Ralph Wilson Stadium without several brawls breaking out" (GLOBE & MAIL, 11/8). In Buffalo, Jerry Sullivan writes under the header, "Dome Field Was No Advantage To A Team That Needed It." Sullivan: "It was the first time I felt that playing a home game [in Toronto] had actually cost the Bills a victory. OK, they're 0-8. They're capable of losing on their own merits. ... But there's no getting around the fact that they played a home game at a neutral site, before a crowd that was decidedly pro-Chicago" (BUFFALO NEWS, 11/8). The NATIONAL POST's Scott Stinson notes the "biggest cheers of the first quarter, in fact, came not for the Bills at all, but for Jay Cutler's 24-yard sideline completion to Johnny Knox and his ensuing touchdown throw" to TE Greg Olsen for the Bears' first score (NATIONAL POST, 11/8). YAHOO SPORTS' Nicholas Cotsonika noted the "cavernous stadium was so quiet in the third quarter -- even though the game was tied at 7 -- you could hear the Bills' cheerleaders clearly in the third deck." Near the end of the game, "even though the Bills were behind by only three and had the ball," many fans "had already left." While the players "were polite about it, they couldn't help but notice it was 'a little bit quiet,' as running back Chester Taylor put it, especially in key situations." Bills QB Ryan Fitzpatrick: "There were more Bears fans than I expected, I guess I can say that" (SPORTS.YAHOO.com, 11/7).

 

Yes, there will be a "foreign game" every year. But the same team isn't locked into a 5 year commitment to play in another country, as are the Bills.

 

Milwaukee is the Green Bay fan base metro area. The Meadowlands is suburban NY, chief.

 

Horrible analogies.

 

Oh I'm definitely with you there! But this is a 44% growth in the past three years, something had to drive that growth. Tailgating didn't suddenly get better (or did they legalize weed and enact a "Cash for 'Gating" law in Buffalo? , so I'm not convinced that it would drive the numbers that high.

 

I guess I'm just curious because several people in this thread are calling the rationale for the numbers BS. If it's BS, what's the theory behind the growth?

 

The Bills have been marketing in these areas for years. The number of S. Ontario ticket buyers at the Ralph went from 11% to 15% in 3 years. Reading the above reports (in the 4th year of this experiment), it should be clear to anyone that Bills to the Skydome has done nothing to create any new excitement in Toronto for this team.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Mr. WEO

[papazoid]

 

The Bills have been marketing in these areas for years. The number of S. Ontario ticket buyers at the Ralph went from 11% to 15% in 3 years. Reading the above reports (in the 4th year of this experiment), it should be clear to anyone that Bills to the Skydome has done nothing to create any new excitement in Toronto for this team.

 

So the increase in Canadians at the Ralph is due to a couple of crappy games in front of a sedate crowd partially filling the Skydome? I doubt that.

 

The Buffalo Bills say their annual excursions to Toronto are helping to grow their fan base in Southern Ontario.

 

Bills Chief Executive Officer Russ Brandon told a crowd of fans Monday that the team continues to see concrete positive results from the five-year, eight-game deal it signed with Rogers Communications in 2008.

 

"After three years of that experience, we've had a 44 percent increase in season-ticket holders from Southern Ontario to One Bills Drive," Brandon said. "That's been the key, how the fans come from there, back to Ralph Wilson Stadium, come to our community and keep our organization viable and strong. That is the key to that relationship."

[Mr. WEO]

The Buffalo Bills say their annual excursions to Toronto are helping to grow their fan base in Southern Ontario.

 

Bills Chief Executive Officer Russ Brandon told a crowd of fans Monday that the team continues to see concrete positive results from the five-year, eight-game deal it signed with Rogers Communications in 2008.

 

"After three years of that experience, we've had a 44 percent increase in season-ticket holders from Southern Ontario to One Bills Drive," Brandon said. "That's been the key, how the fans come from there, back to Ralph Wilson Stadium, come to our community and keep our organization viable and strong. That is the key to that relationship."

Yes, I read that the first time.

 

The point you seem to be missing is that some of us think Russ is BSing you when he claims that the games in Toronto are causing more Canadians to buy tickets to the Ralph. The Bills players would likely agree, based on their comments, as would much of the Toronto press I would imagine.

[Bronc24]

I don't doubt that the fan-base is growing in S. Ontario, but I believe that the Bills have given up home-field advantage by playing in Toronto. I know money talks...but so do wins.

[papazoid]

Yes, I read that the first time.

 

The point you seem to be missing is that some of us think Russ is BSing you when he claims that the games in Toronto are causing more Canadians to buy tickets to the Ralph. The Bills players would likely agree, based on their comments, as would much of the Toronto press I would imagine.

 

well, a 44% increase in sales is SIGNIFICANT....the Bills can take credit for their "regionalization" approach which is a combination of many "marketing initiatives"....just like moving training camp to rochester to raise awareness and interest from the folks in that area......moving games to Toronto to raise awareness and interest from southern ontario is "key" in bringing these folks to the Ralph. Thru various paid media advertising (print, tv & radio), free content and coverage in local newspapers. MORE FANS FROM CANADA ARE COMING TO THE RALPH....that's a fact. if you want to poo poo that success at the Ralph by pointing out a significant number of "empty" seats for official sell outs in the Rogers Centre, that is your right, but to me, that is a seperate arguement.

[Heitz]

My honest opinion? I think that # is completely and utterly fabricated. Hey let's ask a season ticket holder: do you see close to a 50% increase in Ontario license plates over the last three years? Didn't think so. There's been a ton of Ontario plates at that stadium since I was a kid going in the mid-to-late 80's. To say that this Toronto series is in any way responsible for a surge in Ontario season ticket holders is ludicrous. That being said, I agree with everyone else that the Toronto series is good for the long-term viability of the franchise, but to have Russ Brandon try and insinuate that a bunch of hockey fans up in Toronto were watching that Bills-Dolphins thriller a few years ago and said, "you know what, let's start driving down past customs on Sundays to go to games in Orchard Park" is insane.

 

You really think that they're just straight up making up the numbers? I find that one pretty hard to believe - there has to be *some* basis for them IMO. It's not like it would be a tough thing to measure, they have historical data on season ticket buyers.

 

Also why would they make the numbers up, it's not like they have investors to answer to? If (let's pretend) Russ is doing this to "save face" and it's all a lie, the big boss is still going to know the truth and Russ would be out of a job...

 

I don't think it's necessarily the Toronto games alone that are driving the numbers - certainly the increased visibility can't hurt, but (again IMO) the ancillary marketing to the region must have helped somewhat!