Schopp's flawed logic regarding James Starks and C.J Spiller

[dogbyte]

CJ was a need, the Bill's needed to sell excitement to the fans. They needed to sell something to the fans, to sell tickets. This is why CJ was drafted. Cj was the most exciting player coming out of college. He could take it to the house from anywhere and at any time. The Bills would unleash the 3 headed monster on the NFL. The Bills would adopt a run first mentality, with these 3 backs. Unfortunately, it did not work out as planed. CJ was much more of a project than they thought. Chan, is more of a passing coach than a run first coach. Lynch and Jackson took reps away from CJ. To showcase CJ, one of them had to go, so Lynch was traded but CJ still did not shine.

[Chimp]

Its flawed when you make a point with a player that has NO BODY OF WORK IN THE NFL - James Starks. You really grasp for straws when you make comparisons to players that only have been in the league for 1 or 2 years.

 

A valid argument would be Terrell Davis or even Fred Jackson as a few examples.

You are incorrect. What he is comparing is 2 rookies. Look at what Green Bay got out of a later round pick compared to Buffalo's number 9 pick. I don't like him, but I think he is correct. If both of them retired today there was no benefit at all of drafting spiller 9 overall. They could have gotten the same production or close from a 6th rounder.

[Chimp]

The best left tackle we have had on our team in recent years was an undrafted tight end. Maybe we should not draft tackles and just try to convert undrafted tight ends.

I know I am a little off topic, but I think Spiller hasn't had a fair shake yet. Nobody in Minnesota is complaining that they drafted a running back in the first round.

Of course nobody in Minnesota is complaining that they drafted a running back. Did you see them play the previous year? I believe they played in the NFC championship game, right? They lost their backup running back and decided to replace him with a good back. They probably thought that the rest of the pieces were in place. I think the biggest beef with the pick is that this team didn't have the luxury of picking a developmental scat back that at best (projection wise) will be Reggie Bush. A number 9 pick that cannot handle 25 carries a game. That means that you spend a top ten pick that spend half of the teams plays on the sideline. If the Bills played in the AFC championship game last year and lost a running back in the off season, then that pick would have made sense.

 

Since Spiller is the new water bug back, how about a legitement comparison with other water bugs.

m Rushing Receiving Fumbles

G GS Att Yds Avg Lng TD Rec Yds Avg Lng TD FUM Lost

Shaud Williams Undrafted

2004 Buffalo Bills 4 0 42 167 4.0 27T 2 3 19 6.3 10 0 1 0

CJ Spiller #9 overall

2010 Buffalo Bills 14 1 74 283 3.8 20 0 24 157 6.5 41 1 5 3

 

How is that for a waterbug back comparison? For the record, I hope CJ turns into a beast. I like the guy just not the pick.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

schopp lost his mind since empire.

[boyst]

I am a little late here and will share my $.02 and touch on what others have said.

 

Starks and his team are in the playoffs while Spiller and the Bills are not. Just like with Lynch, these two teams are in the playoffs, their RB's have been a factor in their success in the playoffs - one game or not, and something must be said for that; all while Spiller is spending his rookie postseason at home.

[Projay89]

I am a little late here and will share my $.02 and touch on what others have said.

 

Starks and his team are in the playoffs while Spiller and the Bills are not. Just like with Lynch, these two teams are in the playoffs, their RB's have been a factor in their success in the playoffs - one game or not, and something must be said for that; all while Spiller is spending his rookie postseason at home.

and McGahee scored this past weekend. i love watching former Bills playing well in the post season. Jim Leonhard is a great example of being an impact player, we just didnt seem to need.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Maybe the problem has never been all about the running backs.

[CosmicBills]

Maybe the problem has never been all about the running backs.

Absolutely true.

[Gabe Northern]

Maybe the problem has never been all about the running backs.

 

Amazing to think how many we've drafted in the first 2 rounds and the best one of the decade was a former Arena League guy.

 

The thing I hated about Spiller pick was that it seemed to reflect a misunderstanding about Fred Jackson's skill set and Lynch's trade value.

 

Even if the Bills got a 3rd rounder for Lynch, who believes Spiller + a 3 is better than Bulaga + Lynch?

 

I'm just looking forward to drafting a cornerback this year to replace McKelvin...DBs and RBs!!!

[Bufcomments]

Basically, the people who defended the Spiller pick just need to shut the hell up right now. It's OK to be wrong, but seriously, there was no defense for that pick.

 

Nothing against CJ Spiller. He may very well have been the best athlete in the draft. That all is irrelevant.

 

It ALWAYS comes down to this: YOU DON'T NEED TO USE A FIRST ROUND PICK ON A RB.

 

EVER

 

The Bills have drafted 3 with their first pick in the past 7 years. That is utterly outrageous.

 

Yet.....some felt a need to defend the pick because Spiller is just so unbelievably spectacular. Forget the fact that the top two rushers in the NFL in 2009 played for non-playoff teams. One even played for the worst team in the league(Steven Jackson).

 

Remember this phrase: Running backs are a dime-a-dozen.

 

But when it comes to the most important position and most difficult to fill, QUARTERBACK , the Buffalo Bills haven't drafted one with their first selection in any draft since 1960. Almost a full quarter of their first overall picks since 1960 have been running backs, but only one QB, their first ever selection Richie Lucas of Penn State.

 

When it comes to the draft, it does matter which positions you address in round one. It's just a fact.

I agree with what you said.

 

But here is the flipside IMO.

 

The Bills KNEW that Beast Mode wanted out. They even tried to trade him before the season.

Everybody knew Fred Jackson was the better overall back.

 

At the number 9 pick CJ was by far the best player on the board. If I were GM I don't know if I would have picked CJ. I am not trying to justify the pick but in 2 yrs do you think Jackson will be playing at the same level he is now?

 

Yes the Bills Had other needs, OL,DL perfect examples. But if Buddy thinks he has LT part 2 then I am willing to give CJ some room to grow into the job.

[Chimp]

and McGahee scored this past weekend. i love watching former Bills playing well in the post season. Jim Leonhard is a great example of being an impact player, we just didnt seem to need.

Leonhard impact player, maybe. He certainly looks good with plenty of probowl talent around him.

[starrymessenger]

Don't know much about Starks. Sounds like he would have been drafted much earlier but for risk associated with injury his senior year.

Something to bear in mind however is, especially if he is talented, he is showing up with fresh legs at a time of year when players, especially running backs, are pretty beat up (so much for the 18 game season).

Regarding Spiller, in order to justify his selection at #9, he needs to turn into a big time playmaker - whhich he has not done yet, but may do in the future.

As for running backs generally, if your name is Peterson, Simpson, Payton, Dickerson, Faulk, R. Wiliams, E. Smith, T. Thomas etc, and people reasonably expect you to to be that good, you will be a top ten pick in any draft, and for good reason. BTW I realize not all were drafted that high (Thurman was a second rounder due I believe to injury concerns)but inj retrospect he would have been top ten.

[deep2evans]

Basically, the people who defended the Spiller pick just need to shut the hell up right now. It's OK to be wrong, but seriously, there was no defense for that pick.

 

Nothing against CJ Spiller. He may very well have been the best athlete in the draft. That all is irrelevant.

 

It ALWAYS comes down to this: YOU DON'T NEED TO USE A FIRST ROUND PICK ON A RB.

 

EVER

 

The Bills have drafted 3 with their first pick in the past 7 years. That is utterly outrageous.

 

Yet.....some felt a need to defend the pick because Spiller is just so unbelievably spectacular. Forget the fact that the top two rushers in the NFL in 2009 played for non-playoff teams. One even played for the worst team in the league(Steven Jackson).

 

Remember this phrase: Running backs are a dime-a-dozen.

 

But when it comes to the most important position and most difficult to fill, QUARTERBACK , the Buffalo Bills haven't drafted one with their first selection in any draft since 1960. Almost a full quarter of their first overall picks since 1960 have been running backs, but only one QB, their first ever selection Richie Lucas of Penn State.

 

When it comes to the draft, it does matter which positions you address in round one. It's just a fact.

 

i'll still defend the Spiller pick, and still believe he can/will be a special player, but that's one hell of a post. Well done sir.

[BillsFanInLV]

I'll play devil's advocate.

 

If next year, Spiller's second year as a pro, he rushes for 1200+ yards, has 30-50 catches for another 500 yards and returns a few kicks for scores.....does the Spiller pick suddenly become 'Genius' and we then consider him a success?

[gomper]

I guess the question needs to be asked again : why are you still listening to that train wreck of a show?

[CosmicBills]

I'll play devil's advocate.

 

If next year, Spiller's second year as a pro, he rushes for 1200+ yards, has 30-50 catches for another 500 yards and returns a few kicks for scores.....does the Spiller pick suddenly become 'Genius' and we then consider him a success?

No. Because we could have gotten the same production from cheaper player(s) already on the roster or ones gotten through other means other than a first round pick.

 

And that's the point when I say it doesn't matter how good Spiller becomes it was still the wrong pick at the wrong spot at the wrong time for this franchise. They would have been better served either moving down and picking up more picks or taking any number of players that could have filled an immediate need.

[BuffaloBillsForever]

I'll play devil's advocate.

 

If next year, Spiller's second year as a pro, he rushes for 1200+ yards, has 30-50 catches for another 500 yards and returns a few kicks for scores.....does the Spiller pick suddenly become 'Genius' and we then consider him a success?

 

No doubt there will be people making absurd threads like that. Even if Spiller has a breakout year in year 2, 2 years is still not enough body of work IMO to validate the pick as a success at that point in time. Just like it is not enough to validate the pick as a failure after a rookie campaign in which he was not featured. Year 3 and above will tell the tale.

Edited January 12, 2011 by BuffaloBillsForever

[starrymessenger]

I'll play devil's advocate.

 

If next year, Spiller's second year as a pro, he rushes for 1200+ yards, has 30-50 catches for another 500 yards and returns a few kicks for scores.....does the Spiller pick suddenly become 'Genius' and we then consider him a success?

Yes, we do. Why? Because football, like Wall Street, is a purely bottom line driven endeavour. Performance, or the lack thereof, is all you need to justify a conclusion one way or the other. There are no if ands or buts. Reasons, even good ones, not to mention excuses, simply do not matter. There are only results (or the lack thereof). Welcome to the world of high risk/high reward.

[CosmicBills]

Yes, we do. Why? Because football, like Wall Street, is a purely bottom line driven endeavour. Performance, or the lack thereof, is all you need to justify a conclusion one way or the other. There are no if ands or buts. Reasons, even good ones, not to mention excuses, simply do not matter. There are only results (or the lack thereof). Welcome to the world of high risk/high reward.

But the only end result that matters is wins. Not stats. To justify the pick, Spiller has to win a Super Bowl in a Buffalo uniform. If he puts up 2,000 yards and this team doesn't make the playoffs, that does not justify the pick. If anything, it would do the opposite.

[starrymessenger]

But the only end result that matters is wins. Not stats. To justify the pick, Spiller has to win a Super Bowl in a Buffalo uniform. If he puts up 2,000 yards and this team doesn't make the playoffs, that does not justify the pick. If anything, it would do the opposite.

Disagree. Chris Johnson has not led the Titans to a superbowl victory, but surely he has justified his selection as the Titans first pick. Football is and remains a team sport and a total organization effort. Based on your criteria neither Jim Kelly nor Dan Marino were good picks.