Debunking the 34 is the problem myth

[Wayne Cubed]

I have to agree. Not sure what OP sees, but I there are not too many 4-3 play calls scenarios that has a DE (Kelsay) dropping in pass coverage on a TE or RB. I am assuming when he drops, which is frequent and noticeable as the ball is thrown to his guy, he is wearing the OLB hat.

 

If you remember back to when we did run the 43, schobel would drop into coverage occasionally. Its called a stunt. You show that ur bringing 4, then when the balls snapped the DE drops into coverage and a LB blitzes, causing an overload on one side of the line. That being said, kelsay is just not good in coverage as a DE or OLB

[Leonidas II]

Napolian is right (it pains me to say it as I hate looking at Bill Polian's big ugly mug every time he posts). I don't know what Thoner is talking about. Kyle Williams is playing NT with Stroud and Edwards/Johnson playing DE and Kelsay and Ellis/Torbor playing OLB. Aaron Schobel might have dropped into coverage occasionally as a DE but Kelsay is frequently in coverage and has OLB responsibilities. Sorry, but the OP is just wrong on this.

 

All that being said, they don't run the 3-4 (3-4, not 34 or 3/4) every time, but it's far more than 15% of the time. I've notice in nickel they seem to stick with the four man fronts, although I haven't paid attention to the exact personnel in those packages. I guess they could run a nickel 3-3-5 but I haven't seen it yet.

[truth on hold]

I have to agree. Not sure what OP sees, but I there are not too many 4-3 play calls scenarios that has a DE (Kelsay) dropping in pass coverage on a TE or RB. I am assuming when he drops, which is frequent and noticeable as the ball is thrown to his guy, he is wearing the OLB hat.

Stroud at end is another sign it's 3-4.

[reddogblitz]

I'm seeing either 3-4 or 4-2-5 almost always. I rarely see 4-3 if ever. What I'm seeing when not in 4-2-5 often looks like 5-2-4. Both outside "linebackers" line up with their hand on the ground. Looks to me like we're running it way more that 15%.

[John from Riverside]

And yet we drafted for the 3 - 4, not the 4 - 3. And we practiced most of the preseason for the 3 - 4. We cut and players and signed others to maximize our ability to run the 3 - 4. And yet Kelsay's playing standing up, playing an LB role a lot.

 

And you seriously don't think that had a huge impact on our season?

 

We're rebuilding. We don't care all that much about this season, but discovering that after all that that we really couldn't run the 3 - 4 at even a basic level and we'd have to cheat back to the 4 -3 on many plays hurt us bad this year. Luckily, our goal, the goal of all rebuilding teams, isn't winning now, it's winning three years from now.

 

But yeah, the 3 - 4 has hurt us. Nothing wrong with that, though, unless it's still hurting us in 2012.

 

Bingo

 

Napolian is right (it pains me to say it as I hate looking at Bill Polian's big ugly mug every time he posts). I don't know what Thoner is talking about. Kyle Williams is playing NT with Stroud and Edwards/Johnson playing DE and Kelsay and Ellis/Torbor playing OLB. Aaron Schobel might have dropped into coverage occasionally as a DE but Kelsay is frequently in coverage and has OLB responsibilities. Sorry, but the OP is just wrong on this.

 

All that being said, they don't run the 3-4 (3-4, not 34 or 3/4) every time, but it's far more than 15% of the time. I've notice in nickel they seem to stick with the four man fronts, although I haven't paid attention to the exact personnel in those packages. I guess they could run a nickel 3-3-5 but I haven't seen it yet.

 

It looks to me like they are experimenting.....I seriously think the Bills do NOT care about this year and are using it to evaluate players and make every attempt to get to the top pick next year....

 

And I will say this the more I think about it....I think we WILL take a QB next year....but dont be suprised if we take a QB in a trade down to get multiple picks.......I am wondering if they may in fact be targeting Jake Locker knowing they can get him in a trade down and then another one aquiring as many top 3 round picks as possible.....what Chan said to me about not having enough draft picks to fix all the needs after the draft is still ringing in my ears....I could see us trade down and then trade down again.....

[Leonidas II]

I'm seeing either 3-4 or 4-2-5 almost always. I rarely see 4-3 if ever. What I'm seeing when not in 4-2-5 often looks like 5-2-4. Both outside "linebackers" line up with their hand on the ground. Looks to me like we're running it way more that 15%.

 

Well, a 4-2-5 is your standard nickel package, so...yeah. They haven't run a 5-2-4 (called just a 5-2, and I've only seen it in semi-pro ball and maybe high school), what you're talking about is their base 3-4 defense. Kelsay and Ellis are OLB's now, whether or not their hands are in the ground...and whether or not they can cover worth a damn.

 

It looks to me like they are experimenting.....I seriously think the Bills do NOT care about this year and are using it to evaluate players and make every attempt to get to the top pick next year....

 

And I will say this the more I think about it....I think we WILL take a QB next year....but dont be suprised if we take a QB in a trade down to get multiple picks.......I am wondering if they may in fact be targeting Jake Locker knowing they can get him in a trade down and then another one aquiring as many top 3 round picks as possible.....what Chan said to me about not having enough draft picks to fix all the needs after the draft is still ringing in my ears....I could see us trade down and then trade down again.....

 

I think we've been watching different teams on draft days then...

[NaPolian8693]

Napolian is right (it pains me to say it as I hate looking at Bill Polian's big ugly mug every time he posts).

[reddogblitz]

Well, a 4-2-5 is your standard nickel package, so...yeah. They haven't run a 5-2-4 (called just a 5-2, and I've only seen it in semi-pro ball and maybe high school), what you're talking about is their base 3-4 defense. Kelsay and Ellis are OLB's now, whether or not their hands are in the ground...and whether or not they can cover worth a damn.

I guess it's just a terminology thing. Where I come from a guy on the line of scrimmage with his hand on the ground is a lineman. A linebacker plays in back of the line.

 

However, I must admit I don't know much about the 3-4. I come from a strong 4-3 backgroung.

[John from Riverside]

Well, a 4-2-5 is your standard nickel package, so...yeah. They haven't run a 5-2-4 (called just a 5-2, and I've only seen it in semi-pro ball and maybe high school), what you're talking about is their base 3-4 defense. Kelsay and Ellis are OLB's now, whether or not their hands are in the ground...and whether or not they can cover worth a damn.

 

 

 

I think we've been watching different teams on draft days then...

 

We haven't been in a position where we could trade down and still have a top 5 pick in a while either.....I think we will be in that position this year. I haven't checked but I wonder what teams have more then one 1st round pick this year? Or a few 2nds?

[Leonidas II]

We haven't been in a position where we could trade down and still have a top 5 pick in a while either.....I think we will be in that position this year. I haven't checked but I wonder what teams have more then one 1st round pick this year? Or a few 2nds?

 

Look no further than our divisional counterparts. New England has two firsts, two seconds, two thirds, and two fourths this year. To make matters worse, their extra first is from Oakland, their extra second is from Carolina, their extra third is from Minnesota, and their extra fourth is from Denver. Oakland is a perennial bottom-feeder, that pick is guaranteed to be top ten or better; Carolina is 0-4 and not going anywhere this year, a potential top five pick in the second round; Minny got stronger with Moss, but is still equally likely to miss the playoffs as they are to make it; Denver...who knows with them.

[vincec]

Look no further than our divisional counterparts. New England has two firsts, two seconds, two thirds, and two fourths this year. To make matters worse, their extra first is from Oakland, their extra second is from Carolina, their extra third is from Minnesota, and their extra fourth is from Denver. Oakland is a perennial bottom-feeder, that pick is guaranteed to be top ten or better; Carolina is 0-4 and not going anywhere this year, a potential top five pick in the second round; Minny got stronger with Moss, but is still equally likely to miss the playoffs as they are to make it; Denver...who knows with them.

They dumped a lot of good players to assemble that draft. They had better make it count or they are done for a while.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

If you remember back to when we did run the 43, schobel would drop into coverage occasionally. Its called a stunt. You show that ur bringing 4, then when the balls snapped the DE drops into coverage and a LB blitzes, causing an overload on one side of the line. That being said, kelsay is just not good in coverage as a DE or OLB

 

 

That's why I say "too many". K man draws coverage pretty frequently these days where as the sceario you mentioned may have been <2 times per game. But good point I typically think of a stunt as DL penetrating different gaps than usual, but could see why switching roles has the same term.

[gobillsinytown]

We all know Chan came out and said he wants to run the 34 when he took over. But the staff also said they would use mutilpe fronts bepending on personnel.

 

Well, through 4 games, the Bills have very very very rarely been in a 3 man front. I dont have exact numbers like my Troupe myth, but I would estimate that the Bills have been in a 34 alignment no more than 15% of the defensive snaps. Honestly, Maybin hasnt played a single down as a LB. Every snap he has his hand in the dirt along with 3 other lineman.

 

People are mad and I understand that. But I get tired of callers on wgr calling in claiming the 34 has been a huge mistake (I havent read too many posts on here about it, but there have been a few). We dont even run that defense enough to consider it a problem.

 

Please pay more attention to the details people!!!

 

Carry on.

 

They don't run the 34 because they don't have the personnel to run it at the moment, so they're using a hybrid scheme. The 34 is almost completely different than the cover 2. The cover 2 relies on small, fast D linemen who play well together. The linebackers have different responsibilities. The guys the Bills have drafted in the past have been playing cover 2 or 43 for their entire careers, and the free agents they've brought in are stop gaps and essentially teachers. Maybin, Kelsay, McCargo, etc. aren't big enough to play in the 34 and it's almost impossible at the NFL level to "just transition" from a position that you've been playing your whole career to a completely different position. Very few guys can do it, and usually it's from WR to DB.

It was a nice thought that they could put a decent defense on the field this year, but they don't have the players to do it.

Even so, they do play with an attitude, but with one of the worst offenses in the league also, it's not possible to keep the team in games, at least against elite teams.

[Leonidas II]

They dumped a lot of good players to assemble that draft. They had better make it count or they are done for a while.

 

They could completely whiff and still have a better team than us for the next decade, don't kid yourself. Besides, they didn't just "dump" players, they let players go they weren't planning on re-signing anyway. Maroney was a complete bust for them and couldn't stay healthy. The pick from Carolina came from a stupid draft day trade by the Panthers and the Pats have the luxury of having extra picks. Seymour and Moss weren't going to re-sign, so they got great value for the aging stars.

[Thoner7]

Are you guys not watching the same games as me? They routinely use Kelsay at end in the 43. Spencer Johnson and Edwards too. just cause one of those guys is at end doesnt mean its a 30 front. They are in a 4 man front way more often than not. Every nickle situation and easily half of the base D situations. I belive they have gone away from the 34 more since the first 2 games because we lost a lot of our LBs to injury. Ill try to stat the game this week if I get a good interent feed, but we have not run the 34 enough to mark is a problem. We just havent run it as much as a lot of you are thinking.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Look no further than our divisional counterparts. New England has two firsts, two seconds, two thirds, and two fourths this year.

 

How do they do this year after year?

 

And more to the point, could Bills FO please, take a lesson?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

They don't run the 34 because they don't have the personnel to run it at the moment, so they're using a hybrid scheme. The 34 is almost completely different than the cover 2. The cover 2 relies on small, fast D linemen who play well together. The linebackers have different responsibilities. The guys the Bills have drafted in the past have been playing cover 2 or 43 for their entire careers, and the free agents they've brought in are stop gaps and essentially teachers. Maybin, Kelsay, McCargo, etc. aren't big enough to play in the 34 and it's almost impossible at the NFL level to "just transition" from a position that you've been playing your whole career to a completely different position. Very few guys can do it, and usually it's from WR to DB.

It was a nice thought that they could put a decent defense on the field this year, but they don't have the players to do it.

Even so, they do play with an attitude, but with one of the worst offenses in the league also, it's not possible to keep the team in games, at least against elite teams.

 

I agree with your comparison of Cover 2 vs 3-4.

 

The "play with an attitude" part - at least as that's usually meant

Last week against the Jets, I saw an attitude - with few exceptions, on the D, it was a bad, "who cares" attitude

 

There is also the question of the defensive secondary. Last year they were purty durn good.

This year they're leaving man-parts squirming on the field from all the blown coverage.

 

What's up with that? Can that really all be put to the 3-4 transition somehow?

I await education on that one.

[reddogblitz]

There is also the question of the defensive secondary. Last year they were purty durn good.

This year they're leaving man-parts squirming on the field from all the blown coverage.

I put the poor secondary play on the coaches and scheme. We got the same guys back there we had last year. The same group that got 28 picks and this year we got zero. I don't think these guys forgot how to play over the off season. what changed? The coaching and the scheme primarily.