Doc Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 The Chief's stadium in KC is going through a three year major major renovoation. Their stadium is very similar to the Ralph. The design firm is the same for both venues. Building a new stadium in western NY would cost in the range of a billion dollars once land acquisition, impact statements, legal challenges etc are factored in. The public authorities certainly aren't going to pay (rightly so) and no investor is going to come up with the money for a project that is insanely infeasible. As it stands, nothing can be done until there is new ownership. The current owner has no interest of investing in a project in which he will not see the benefit. There is no doubt that assuming the team stays in the region with a new owner ticket prices will go up and other charges will be added to pay off the bonds. The stadium in Orchard Park is underutilized. The owner of the Redskins rented out his stadium for the BoiseST/VaTech game and many other events. Baltimore rented out its stadium for the Md/Navy game and many other events such as championship college lacrosse games. Being more aggressive in looking for new revenue streams such as rentals and selling stadium naming rights will be a necessity to keep the franchise in place for the long term. Care to list the owner(s) that would have an interest in investing in a project in which he/she(they) will not see the benefit? You won't find one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Anybody who is crazy enough to privately fund a new stadium for the Bills would run the franchise into the ground. Like really, into the ground, not the mediocre teams of the last few years. There's absolutely no way a new stadium in Buffalo is profitable, regardless of who builds it. A new stadium with a retractable roof would allow the stadium to be used 12 months out of the year and the climate control would double the stadiums capabilities to make money in my opinion. Do you have any idea how much money a Superbowl would bring to the City of Buffalo and surrounding area? Well, honestly, I don't either , but allot I can guarantee you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West End Stench Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) Doesn't apply to stadiums that have been paid off for decades. I don't have any numbers to back this up, but if I had to guess I would say the the Bills have among the lowest outstanding debt out of the 32 NFL teams. Edited September 8, 2010 by West End Stench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 A new stadium with a retractable roof would allow the stadium to be used 12 months out of the year and the climate control would double the stadiums capabilities to make money in my opinion. Do you have any idea how much money a Superbowl would bring to the City of Buffalo and surrounding area? Well, honestly, I don't either , but allot I can guarantee you... while a good idea in theory, never going to happen.. the league is on the fast track to becoming rollerball and buffalo is not in any super bowl mix of cities to host . i know that if the bills left buffalo, my interest in the NFL would diminish, just do not care for the direction and priorites of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafter Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 The Ralph is a REAL Football stadium!!! Who needs retractable roofs and heated seats?! LOSERS!!! The reason you go see a football game in December is to freeze your cojones off and route on the Bills!!! If you want indoor sports, go to a basketball game!!! Enjoy the Ralph for what it is, a throwback to old time football and that's what it should be marketed as, ala Green Bay with the Frozen Tundra. Instead of arguing with the cold weather-hating media and out-of-town know-nothings, embrace our football heritage for what it is!!! We are a cold weather, blue collar city who likes our beer cold and our football stadiums COLDER!!! LETS GOT BILLS!!!! I am pumped to get a sunburn on Sunday, but be to drunk to notice it. Go Bills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 while a good idea in theory, never going to happen.. the league is on the fast track to becoming rollerball and buffalo is not in any super bowl mix of cities to host . i know that if the bills left buffalo, my interest in the NFL would diminish, just do not care for the direction and priorites of the league. Buffalo hasn't been a consideration as a SB site since the Leagues merged. And now this bothers you? Rollerball? How so? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Buffalo hasn't been a consideration as a SB site since the Leagues merged. And now this bothers you? Rollerball? How so? it doesnt bother me, just do not think it will happen, not high on my list of priorites. way more concerned about just keeping the team in buffalo. as for "rollerball", just seems like the league is all hype, glitz, lacking in substance. too much extraneous bulls-t going on for me. i am old school, just line em up and play. i am not into reality shows, michael irvin interviewing randy moss.. just give me a half-hour pre-game show, not goofy terry bradshaw yucking it up with jimmy johnson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 I see what you're getting at there and I agree it should have more use than just football. I seem to remember the Dead playing there in the summer time way back when. Concerts seem to have died (no pun intended) down there with the introduction of the HSBC Arena. I wonder why the Ralph is not used a s much for concerts...no idea. I just don't think football games should be played indoors. That is my opinion. I'm in favor of fixing up the Ralph but no dome stadium. retractable roof leave it open for games, hell even vote on it! That stadium could keep the Bills in Buffalo (God, how I just wish Ralph would make it a commitment for them to stay, from anyone who bought them even if it was at auction somehow. It is one thing that would really really give him a legacy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobblehead Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 With the economy in the tank, I fully believe that Buffalo's stadium and debt situation is now envious around the league. I know when someone buys the team, he/she will have instant debt, but I have a feeling that even that situation will still be better than a good number of teams in the league. I think the recession saved this team from going anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowery4 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 A new stadium with a retractable roof would allow the stadium to be used 12 months out of the year and the climate control would double the stadiums capabilities to make money in my opinion. Do you have any idea how much money a Superbowl would bring to the City of Buffalo and surrounding area? Well, honestly, I don't either , but allot I can guarantee you... We don't need a new stadium to do that (use it all year long) Bflo doesn't have nice enough or just plain enough hotel space for a superbowl and we don't need one in b-lo anyway, just like GB and KC we should fix up what we have. So we can keep the team there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobblehead Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Buffalo hasn't been a consideration as a SB site since the Leagues merged. And now this bothers you? Rollerball? How so? Im cool with it as long as the league turns into the original version of Rollerball.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV9ysMZamxs and not the newer, ass-tastic version with fuggin LL Cool J in it. That joint sucked balls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyQuil Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Just spruce up the Ralph. No need for a dome or heated seats. The stadium is (kind of) in Buffalo it should embrace Buffalo. Football in December and eventually January? Throw on long underwear and a couple more layers up top and you are good to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwight in philly Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 We don't need a new stadium to do that (use it all year long) Bflo doesn't have nice enough or just plain enough hotel space for a superbowl and we don't need one in b-lo anyway, just like GB and KC we should fix up what we have. So we can keep the team there. well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) We don't need a new stadium to do that (use it all year long) Bflo doesn't have nice enough or just plain enough hotel space for a superbowl and we don't need one in b-lo anyway, just like GB and KC we should fix up what we have. So we can keep the team there. The weather in Buffalo is rough in the winter/ windy all the time, and the loyal fans of Buffalo deserve better accommodations in my opinion. This forum is made up of mostly guys posting, but If you were to ask some of the wives how they felt about having a controlled environment to take the whole family to,most wives are going to Yes, a controlled environment would be much better for the whole family. The players are also less likely to have injuries in a controlled environment in my opinion. Edited September 8, 2010 by dog14787 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Care to list the owner(s) that would have an interest in investing in a project in which he/she(they) will not see the benefit? You won't find one. What is your point. I simply made the statement that he is not going to invest in a project in which he is not going to be around to benefit from. Most owners are not in their 90s like Ralph is. The mercurial Al Davis is nearly in the same age bracket, though not quite. When "Odd Al" sold a portion of his ownership he took the some of the proceeds and then made some weird high expensive acquisitions. That is not Ralph's style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperKillerRobots Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 If stadiums were paid for the same way one would pay to construct an ordinary commercial piece of real estate, they wouldn't run into these problems. You don't take a 50 year mortgage on a building with an economic life of 25-30 years. You tie the loan to projected revenues from that building, not a separate building. It's just simple economics, no banker would give a construction loan to someone who doesn't have a projected revenue to pay for the loan and wouldn't extend the loan beyond the building's viability. If you build a stadium where the revenue pays for the debt within a reasonable time frame you don't get a demolished stadium with debt remaining. This is sort of correct. One exception being that commercial short term loans are 1 to 3 years most of the time and long-term loans are never past 15 and usually for mortgages are 10 (with a balloon payment at the end that has to be refinanced). These loans would then be amatorized over a period of 20 or 30 years. Stadium debt is done the same way, except instead of 10 or 15 year loans, they get 1 to 5 year loans with amortizations of something like 40 years. This forces refinances, but also strings along the debt for a long time. It's actually a very inefficient way of doing business because of all the changes. This is why when the economy tanks, every team with a loan feels it because they are being forced to refi their loans every few years and deal with the current economic conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 What is your point. I simply made the statement that he is not going to invest in a project in which he is not going to be around to benefit from. Most owners are not in their 90s like Ralph is. The mercurial Al Davis is nearly in the same age bracket, though not quite. When "Odd Al" sold a portion of his ownership he took the some of the proceeds and then made some weird high expensive acquisitions. That is not Ralph's style. Okay, let me put this another way. Do you think that there is an owner in the NFL or prospective owner who would put up $300-400M of his own money to build a new stadium in the Buffalo area (with matching funds by the taxpayers)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 (edited) I know the dome sounds like a bad idea to you young guys who like to go to games and freeze your butts off but the cold weather advantage is way over blown IMO, we don't even have it really with 3 out of 4 of the teams in our own division. Make the damn place comfortable you can still sit outside b4 and after the games or we could just leave the roof open if it was super unpopular but the dome would help with hosting other kinds of events. I don't know that there are that many multi uses for the Ralph even with a dome but I will throw a couple out here now; it could be used as a convention center with the roof open they could have more winter classic hockey games we could even have a CFL game or two every year big college basket ball tourney games it just seems dumb that that thing sits out there empty all but 7 weekends a year. If there is recovery money to help out available still, was my idea. Anyone know? If you think there is a clamor to have taxpayer money used to pay for a new stadium in the current economic and political environment then you are being very optimistic and going against the grain. Look at the budgetary situation for the state and county? Are you confident that a referundum vote for tax increases to fund a stadium initiative would pass? I'm not. The only way there is a chance for a tax increase going through to pay for major stadium upgrades is for the owner of the team putting up the majority of the money for the improvements. In KC, the owner of the Chiefs payed approximately one third of the costs for the stadium upgrade. That percentage would have to go up much higher (more than 50%) before there is a chance that public funds would be used for such a project. The current polical and fiscal climate is much more restrictive than a few years ago. It is my opinion that a primarily publicly financed stadium or upgrade is not going to happen in western NY or anywhere else in the forseeable future. If there is recovery money to help out available still[/b][/u][/size], was my idea. Anyone know? There is a snowball chance in hell that recovery money would be used to mainly benefit a multi-millionaire/billionaire NFL owner. Edited September 8, 2010 by JohnC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnC Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 Okay, let me put this another way. Do you think that there is an owner in the NFL or prospective owner who would put up $300-400M of his own money to build a new stadium in the Buffalo area (with matching funds by the taxpayers)? There is no doubt that the brunt of the financing will have to come from the new owner. It is not going to be easy. There are ways. The financial issue isn't how much is it going to cost to finance a stadium upgrade. The REAL issue is how much is it going to cost to buy the team AND also upgrade the stadium. If the team is bought for a billion $$$ then the financial viability for the cost of the team and the near future cost of a major stadium upgrade is very improbable. The numbers allowing for solvency would not add up. If you can tell me how much the team is going to cost the local buyer then one would be in a better position to answer your question. If one knew if there would be public funds for a stadium upgrade and what it would be then again one can address your question. I'm not trying to avoid your question about financing. The reality is until the team is sold and the price of the franchise is known it is impossible to answer your very tough question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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