Tuesday Morning Practice: Some Impressions

[Beerball]

Astro

Good stuff Stro! Thanks for the report.

[JohnC]

1. Bills did Wildcat formation on the first drill. One Spiller run looked pretty good, but Spiller's one pass out of the Wildcat was awful, and he was good-naturedly booed by the offense. Later in 11 on 11, they ran the Wildcat again--the defense knew it was coming.

 

2. The offensive line is very spirited, even when doing the sled that prevents them from blocking too high. Lots of whoopin' and hollerin'.

 

3. Hennesay was not used at TE, but JP Foschi (I think he'll be #82, not #88 as listed in the roster, which is also Stupar's #) can catch the football and has balance. He made a forward lean to catch a pass on an out route and actually recovered his balance and ran with it. He had another great catch from Edwards later on in 11-11.

 

4. Spiller was beaten a couple of times in protection drill. Simpson and Joique Bell are ahead of him in this. Simpson is better than Bell at protection, but Bell is better than Simpson at receiving and running. Joique Bell is going to make a 53-man roster. Just might not be ours. I wish he could be.

 

5. McIntyre loves to block, but he's a nifty receiver. He showed great hands on an out route to both sides.

 

6. Moats laid a WR out so well that an entire play was disrupted.

 

7. McCargo is much better at DE than he was at DT. He is penetrating and relentless. He knows he's in a battle at DE. I won't say he's made the team because a bunch of them look good. Carrington needs time, Stroud is a sure thing, Dwan Edwards looks like the disrupting type, and Spencer Johnson, while I didn't notice him today, has impressed others. I like Rashaad Duncan for the PS at DE; he gets a strong push.

 

8. All four QB's are throwing late, often 1-2 seconds after the WR has made the cut. On one set of throws, an out route, the throw came so late that the DB would have time to react and be on top of the WR. Watch for it vs. Cincy on Saturday.

 

9. Cordaro Howard would have been penalized twice for holding this morning. Levitre and Wood are such effective blockers it's sick. Bell is coming on.

 

10. Props to Lonnie Harvey and Torrell Troup, who hold the point of attack and (if singled) can push the pile back. Lonnie should push something at 342 lbs. Troup is 315 and Kyle Williams is listed at 306, but he's gained weight).

 

11. One word about the hecklers: There were two guys (I'm guessing college-age) who were giving Trent the business, and keeping it up for the whole practice. It was irritating, but he was encouraged by those around him. It went on longer than "just having fun". It's amazing what some people will do to compensate for their uh, shortcomings.

 

Astro

 

As usual another superb camp report.

 

You make a terrific point about the qbs (primarily Trent) making late throws. That is a reflection of a lack of trust in himself and his teammates. How many times have you heard people respond in utter frustration with Trent and his cautious tendencies to just throw the ball and give the receiver an opportunity to go after it?

 

What Trent Edwards has to learn is that his position is all about making plays. Being schooled by Jauron and a coaching philosophy of not making mistakes (mostly turnovers) has psychologically crippled him. The qp's mentality has to be that the prior negative play shouldn't hold you hostage to the next play. No one expects him to have a reckless Favre mentality. But unless he opens up more he will go by the wayside quicker than he should. Being a qb or cb is not a position where you can play scared. It is a recipe for failure.

[The Dean]

The timing and late throws may not be the QB's. The receivers maybe coming out of their cuts early, breaking them off a couple of yards short of where they should thus forcing the late throws. if it was one, then I'd say okay, but since it was more than one it was the receivers who were reading and breaking off and all the Qbs reading something different.

 

 

Since the Bot's observations were that it was all the QBs, and didn't single out one or two WRs, I will assume it is the QBs and/or the coaching.

[BB2004]

Excellent report. I like what you said about McCargo playing the DE position. Hopefully he can make an impact there.

[dpberr]

I'm shocked about John "Rasputin" McCargo.

 

I still expect him to be one of the cuts.

[Thunderstealer]

J.Bell might be one of those -can't believe he wasn't drafted- players. Division II National Player of the Year.

[Astrobot]

Thanks for the report!

 

Have to think Bell (Joique, not Demetrius) makes the roster as the 4th RB. The Bills will only keep one FB (McIntyre) and five total backs is a pretty standard number.

 

That's a relief--going into the season with Lynch, Jackson, McIntyre, Spiller, and J-Bell would be my preference, too. If we don't have to expose J-Bell to waivers, so much the better.

 

Since the Bot's observations were that it was all the QBs, and didn't single out one or two WRs, I will assume it is the QBs and/or the coaching.

 

It's all of the QB's.I admit when Gailey ragged on the WR's to step up, I had my doubts, but it's clear that the QBs' "happy feet" and lack of practice with timing plays, in addition to last year's running for their lives, are all factors.

[VABills]

That's a relief--going into the season with Lynch, Jackson, McIntyre, Spiller, and J-Bell would be my preference, too. If we don't have to expose J-Bell to waivers, so much the better.

 

 

 

It's all of the QB's.I admit when Gailey ragged on the WR's to step up, I had my doubts, but it's clear that the QBs' "happy feet" and lack of practice with timing plays, in addition to last year's running for their lives, are all factors.

That's my point though, if all the QB's are doing it, they are reading something different than the receivers. I suspect they are breaking off their routes early and that's what's causing it. Maybe a WR coach thing or a different preogression read from the QB's. If it was one QB, I'd say QB's but all 3/4 means they are on a different page.

 

BTW, thanks for the report, and I don't doubt what you see but sometimes we as fans don't always understand what we see. Coaches and players look at the game differently.

Edited August 25, 2010 by VABills

[Astrobot]

That's my point though, if all the QB's are doing it, they are reading something different than the receivers. I suspect they are breaking off their routes early and that's what's causing it. Maybe a WR coach thing or a different preogression read from the QB's. If it was one QB, I'd say QB's but all 3/4 means they are on a different page.

 

BTW, thanks for the report, and I don't doubt what you see but sometimes we as fans don't always understand what we see. Coaches and players look at the game differently.

What, actually, would the QB's and WR's be practicing, then?????? By the time the ball gets there, the WR is covered. The QB isn't throwing before the WR breaks. The QB isn't throwing when the WR breaks. The QB's are watching the WR break, then throwing it. That's not going to win games.

[VABills]

What, actually, would the QB's and WR's be practicing, then?????? By the time the ball gets there, the WR is covered. The QB isn't throwing before the WR breaks. The QB isn't throwing when the WR breaks. The QB's are watching the WR break, then throwing it. That's not going to win games.

I'll keep it simple, my point is maybe the call is 10 yards and then turn left. However, the play may allow the WR to break off and turn at 7 yards if it looks like the safety is coming over. So the Wr is breaking at 7 as he reads the safety cove, but the QB doesn't see it that way and is waiting to throw at 10 yards. If so it will appear the QB is waiting until he breaks until he throws but it actually is a WR mistake/mis-read. It could be a coaching issue as the WR coach is giving the WR's something to key on for the Safety support that is different from what the OC and the QB's are reading. Pro football is a lot of reads and adapting to the defense. They are not like pee-wee football where you always run exactly what was called there are usually at least 3 progressions allowed in a route and the WR and Qb are reading it different. that's why when folks blame a Qb for a bad throw or INT at least half the time it isn't his fault but rather a mis-read with what the WR is doing.

[The Dean]

It's all of the QB's.I admit when Gailey ragged on the WR's to step up, I had my doubts, but it's clear that the QBs' "happy feet" and lack of practice with timing plays, in addition to last year's running for their lives, are all factors.

 

 

BTW, thanks for the report, and I don't doubt what you see but sometimes we as fans don't always understand what we see. Coaches and players look at the game differently.

 

Excellent points.

 

I admit after my last post I also red Chan's criticisms or the WRs and wondered if they might be an issue. I still have a hard time believing a guy like Evans isn't running his proper route. But right now I accept a WR issue as a possibility. (Still from watching the game it was clear that Trent remains the most tentative. He did a far better job against the Colts even though he was still a bit tentative, IMO.

 

But whether it be QBs, WRs or a combination of both (and their inability to be consistently on the same page) I still think there is a coaching issue here. It's too late in the year for this to be a big issue, IMO.

 

Look I'm not an NFL coach so maybe I don't know what the hell I'm talking about. But in the OTs and in Training Camp, I'm telling the QB to throw the ball where the WR is supposed to be. If the QB are accurate passers and there are a lot of balls hitting the turf, you know where the trouble lies. The WRs and the WR coach are then on the spot.

 

Hell maybe that's the wake up call Chan is trying to give now, but it seems a bit late.

[Peter]

Thanks for the report.

 

I really hope that J. Bell makes the team. He has played well enough to earn a spot. I also heard him interviewed on Sirius NFL Radio last week, and he sounds like a great kid - the kind of player that both Chan and Buddy appear to want on our team.

[Pilsner]

I'll keep it simple, my point is maybe the call is 10 yards and then turn left. However, the play may allow the WR to break off and turn at 7 yards if it looks like the safety is coming over. So the Wr is breaking at 7 as he reads the safety cove, but the QB doesn't see it that way and is waiting to throw at 10 yards. If so it will appear the QB is waiting until he breaks until he throws but it actually is a WR mistake/mis-read. It could be a coaching issue as the WR coach is giving the WR's something to key on for the Safety support that is different from what the OC and the QB's are reading. Pro football is a lot of reads and adapting to the defense. They are not like pee-wee football where you always run exactly what was called there are usually at least 3 progressions allowed in a route and the WR and Qb are reading it different. that's why when folks blame a Qb for a bad throw or INT at least half the time it isn't his fault but rather a mis-read with what the WR is doing.

 

 

That's what I was wondering about too. You might be right, perhaps it's just a simple coaching issue. That can easily be corrected once the coaches get on the same page.

[Astrobot]

I'll keep it simple, my point is maybe the call is 10 yards and then turn left. However, the play may allow the WR to break off and turn at 7 yards if it looks like the safety is coming over. So the Wr is breaking at 7 as he reads the safety cove, but the QB doesn't see it that way and is waiting to throw at 10 yards. If so it will appear the QB is waiting until he breaks until he throws but it actually is a WR mistake/mis-read. It could be a coaching issue as the WR coach is giving the WR's something to key on for the Safety support that is different from what the OC and the QB's are reading. Pro football is a lot of reads and adapting to the defense. They are not like pee-wee football where you always run exactly what was called there are usually at least 3 progressions allowed in a route and the WR and Qb are reading it different. that's why when folks blame a Qb for a bad throw or INT at least half the time it isn't his fault but rather a mis-read with what the WR is doing.

If the WR and QB are reading it differently, we have the same disconnect between them that there has been for 10 years. Edwards and Johnson worked together after practice on outs, fades, sideline stuff, etc., but watch the game (I'm blacked out, but I think you're OK in VA) and see if the WR is breaking off, if the QB is slow on the uptake, etc.

 

This is an important issue for me, in that it's my job at DraftTek to accurately represent the Bills' positional needs for next April (assuming there's a draft!)...If we are blaming our QB's for a WR misperception, I'm more likely to go with, say Carimi at LT in RD1 than Ponder at QB. http://www.drafttek.com/2011players.asp

[VABills]

If the WR and QB are reading it differently, we have the same disconnect between them that there has been for 10 years. Edwards and Johnson worked together after practice on outs, fades, sideline stuff, etc., but watch the game (I'm blacked out, but I think you're OK in VA) and see if the WR is breaking off, if the QB is slow on the uptake, etc.

 

This is an important issue for me, in that it's my job at DraftTek to accurately represent the Bills' positional needs for next April (assuming there's a draft!)...If we are blaming our QB's for a WR misperception, I'm more likely to go with, say Carimi at LT in RD1 than Ponder at QB. http://www.drafttek.com/2011players.asp

I'll keep an eye out for it then.

[Astrobot]

I'll keep an eye out for it then.

Thanks. If you can find this thread by Sunday, hop back on. I think this is crucial, and we won't see much in Game 4 when they're resting their starters early.

[VABills]

Thanks. If you can find this thread by Sunday, hop back on. I think this is crucial, and we won't see much in Game 4 when they're resting their starters early.

But if it was all the QBs as you say, we will see it regardless.

[The Dean]

But if it was all the QBs as you say, we will see it regardless.

 

 

I think if you see it more with one QB than another, if isn't likely all on the WRs. In fact, you should expect it more with Brohm and Brown and the younger WRs than you should with Trent and the returning WRs. IMO it has happened more with Trent than the others.

[The Dean]

Now that I read this:

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/13815243/bills-camp-report-chan-the-man-that-can-help-qb-edwards-needs

 

I'm starting to think it very well might be this:

 

 

Hell maybe that's the wake up call Chan is trying to give now...

[nick in* england]

Chaps - this is a learned and engaging thread that makes TSW a great place to be a Bills fan. I commend your discussion and analysis.

 

I have just gone back to the tape of the Colts game to check Trents performance in the first quarter (hurrah for NFL Game Pass HD). There are two key takeaways from the tape I was able to watch in 5 quick minutes (approx the first three offensive series). One relates to the passing game, one to the running game.

 

Passing game

1. On the whole the first three series were pretty poor from a passing perspective for several reasons. The OL had a tough time giving the QB more than a second or two of time in the pocket. The Colts DL puinned their ears back and made life tough.

2. When Trent had time to drop back and plant, on about 50% of the throws he hesitated. Much of this is down to the situation the Offence was in. On one key third down on the third series, Johnson runs an out route about 6-7 yards from the LOS, but the 1st down marker was roughly 12 yards. Trent could have pulled the trigger at the bottom of his drop, but he hesitates to hit (I think) Parrish who is running a corner/seam route deeper. The pass falls well short as Trent gets hit as he throws.

3. In the first series, another play where Trent gets time to drop, plant and throw is designed to be a comeback route to Evans down the right sideline. Trent has little hesitation with the pass and guns it. The pass hits the DB who wasn't looking as was almost an INT. The problem here, I think, is that Evans and Edwards just aren't on the same page. Evans has his man beat with no safety support but he breaks to the sideline, away from the QB at the down marker. From the placement of the pass, Edwards clearly expected the read to be back into the field of play, which was a move that Evans could easily have done... There's also a case (Tasker makes the point) for taking it deep on that play, which they make hay with later in the game.

 

Running game

My comments here come as a real surprise. Andy Levitre had a bad first three series, characterised by two major mistakes in the running game. I don't suggest he is solely to blame, but definately more that 50% in both cases. My analysis here is very quick and dirty because I am at work, but...

1. In the first series, the play call is a toss left to Spiller, with McIntyre and Levitre out in front. Levitre pulls from LG and he and McIntrye meet at the point of attack and get in each others way as they block the man at the edge. Levitre has got to be quicker out of his stance and down the back of the line here. Instead, he drops too deep on the pull, gets tangled up in a block (looks like a designed kick out block) that McIntyre has to make (into a seal) for him, and is then behind the play that Spiller takes for positive yards. Had Levitre got to his block in time, McIntyre would have been out in front of Spiller to spring him for more yards... Alternatively, McIntyre makes that block and Levitre kicks out at the second level, giving CJ more room to run.

2. Third seies. Play call looks a bit like a long Trap to the right. Again, Levitre is very slow to make his pull down the back of the OL to the right and Spiller gets blown up 4 yards deep.