Why are 3-4 nose tackles so hard to find?

[clearwater cadet]

I been looking at other 3-4 nose tackles status around the league, and none of these guys put up hugh numbers. I think Vince Wolfolk had like 31 tackles, no sacks, no fumbles. So what all the fuss about drafting 1 of these guys with a high pick, if thats considered good production. Why won't any big body type who 6'3 325-350 be able to do the job. Just move forward at the snap of the ball, and uses his weight/strengthn to tie up two defenders, so the linebackers can make the play. It don't seem like any of these guys in a 3-4 have any type of great lateral movement, their certainly not going to run anyone down, or take an angle and catch some one up the field. These guys seem to play in about 5 square yards of space, so why are they so hard to find? Doesn't seem that a 2 great middle linebackers will make the nose tackle tackle look good.

[R. Rich]

I been looking at other 3-4 nose tackles status around the league, and none of these guys put up hugh numbers. I think Vince Wolfolk had like 31 tackles, no sacks, no fumbles. So what all the fuss about drafting 1 of these guys with a high pick, if thats considered good production. Why won't any big body type who 6'3 325-350 be able to do the job. Just move forward at the snap of the ball, and uses his weight/strengthn to tie up two defenders, so the linebackers can make the play. It don't seem like any of these guys in a 3-4 have any type of great lateral movement, their certainly not going to run anyone down, or take an angle and catch some one up the field. These guys seem to play in about 5 square yards of space, so why are they so hard to find? Doesn't seem that a 2 great middle linebackers will make the nose tackle tackle look good.

 

 

Nose tackles are not going to get many stats, as they're there to clog rush lanes and force action away from the middle. They also limit the ILB's dealings w/ the interior O linemen. Getting "stats" like sacks, forced fumbles, INTs, and even tackles aren't easy to do when you have a couple 310lb guys trying to take your head off on every play. But, when they do their job well (Jamal Williams, Kris Jenkins when healthy, Sean Rogers when he feels like it, and guys like Vince Wilfork and Casey Hampton whenever), they are invaluable to a 3-4. In fact, they are THE most vital component of a 3-4 scheme.

[8-8 Forever?]

Nose tackles are not going to get many stats, as they're there to clog rush lanes and force action away from the middle. They also limit the ILB's dealings w/ the interior O linemen. Getting "stats" like sacks, forced fumbles, INTs, and even tackles aren't easy to do when you have a couple 310lb guys trying to take your head off on every play. But, when they do their job well (Jamal Williams, Kris Jenkins when healthy, Sean Rogers when he feels like it, and guys like Vince Wilfork and Casey Hampton whenever), they are invaluable to a 3-4. In fact, they are THE most vital component of a 3-4 scheme.

 

+1. no NT, no 3-4. doesn't work without one.

[sharper802]

NT stats are meaningless. It is there abitlity to hold the point of attack against two blockers(center and guard). With two ILB's and an OLB that means you have 3 defenders against a tackle and maybe a TE(the SS then would presumably be over the TE). If they NT can get any penetration as many NT's did to the Bills o-line last year it completely destroys the running game. I don't think the NT really has any role in pass defense other than to allow multiple LB blitz packages. They basically just stand there raise there arms knock a few passes down and try to push the pocket back a bit so the QB can't step up to throw and occasionally grab a RB on a draw play.

The great ones have just the right size (not too tall), leverage, and upper body strength to take on two blockers while playing low to the ground. There are very few of those guys and they almost always take years to develop.

[clearwater cadet]

+1. no NT, no 3-4. doesn't work without one.

 

I guess my question is, why do these guys need to be so special. Take a guy like Lonnie Harvey, big guy 6'2' 340-345, pretty athletic. Why can't he just line up over the ball, move forward at the snap, clog up the gap, tie up the center and guard and let the linebacker make the tackle. As long he's got the size/ weight and can move fairly well, why would you need a top 10 pick to do that. It seem a 3-4 nose tackle has a very specific job to perform in a very limited amount of space. I would think these guys are a dime a dozen.

[Stevie Ray]

I guess my question is, why do these guys need to be so special. Take a guy like Lonnie Harvey, big guy 6'2' 340-345, pretty athletic. Why can't he just line up over the ball, move forward at the snap, clog up the gap, tie up the center and guard and let the linebacker make the tackle. As long he's got the size/ weight and can move fairly well, why would you need a top 10 pick to do that. It seem a 3-4 nose tackle has a very specific job to perform in a very limited amount of space. I would think these guys are a dime a dozen.

 

Its more than just taking up space. As a few have already mentioned, a good NT must be able to take on two blockers at once, freeing up the LBs to rush. Its one thing to have the mass, its another to know how to use it and have the functional strength to back it up.

[RealityCheck]

Its more than just taking up space. As a few have already mentioned, a good NT must be able to take on two blockers at once, freeing up the LBs to rush. Its one thing to have the mass, its another to know how to use it and have the functional strength to back it up.

Not to mention doing that for 900 snaps a season for average NFL money.

[robertpaul49]

Also, besides taking up space, they also need to be athletic enough to shed blockers while being double team to stop the run. Pat Williams grew into his roll, but it is hard to find guys that are that big and athletic. It's a matter of genetics. Kind of like left tackles.

[3irty1]

I was just going to say that. the NT is the LT of the defense. Nothing much else to say that hasn't been already said.

[Green Lightning]

I guess my question is, why do these guys need to be so special. Take a guy like Lonnie Harvey, big guy 6'2' 340-345, pretty athletic. Why can't he just line up over the ball, move forward at the snap, clog up the gap, tie up the center and guard and let the linebacker make the tackle. As long he's got the size/ weight and can move fairly well, why would you need a top 10 pick to do that. It seem a 3-4 nose tackle has a very specific job to perform in a very limited amount of space. I would think these guys are a dime a dozen.

 

 

Really? Think of a 340 pound 6'3" guy squatting down close to the ground and firing into two 300 pound-plus OL and have the power and stamina to drive them backwards and keep them occupied so your LB's can make plays. Now do that 800 plus times a season. These guys are special and rare. Someone on this thread said a NT is the LT of the defense....he's dead right.

[Thoner7]

Because its really hard to find 330+ lb athletic humans.

[Mr. ChumChums]

Because its really hard to find 330+ lb athletic humans.

 

Almost quoted from Bill Parcells himself. I think he said something along the lines of "there's only so many athletic 300 lb monsters out there"...or something like that.

[Thurman#1]

I guess my question is, why do these guys need to be so special. Take a guy like Lonnie Harvey, big guy 6'2' 340-345, pretty athletic. Why can't he just line up over the ball, move forward at the snap, clog up the gap, tie up the center and guard and let the linebacker make the tackle. As long he's got the size/ weight and can move fairly well, why would you need a top 10 pick to do that. It seem a 3-4 nose tackle has a very specific job to perform in a very limited amount of space. I would think these guys are a dime a dozen.

 

 

 

How many 350 pound guys who are mostly muscle do you see out there? They're absolutely huge, and they also have to have tremendous strength. They don't just absorb double-team blocks. They're also supposed to move a step or two towards the play while doing so. Can't you see how difficult it might be to move whichever way you feel like while 650 pounds of weight-trained tough guys do their best to stop you from doing so?

[Thurman#1]

Not to mention doing that for 900 snaps a season for average NFL money.

 

 

The good ones do a lot better than average. Wilfork just signed a 5 year $40 mill contract, for instance.

[San Jose Bills Fan]

In my opinion, the people on this board overstate the importance of the 3-4 nose tackle. Yes, very good ones are hard to find. But a 3-4 defense can be effective without a Pro Bowl caliber nose tackle AND a good nose tackle does not assure a good defense.

 

Here are the 3-4 defenses from last year (ranked by yardage) with their nose tackle.

 

1 New York Jets Kris Jenkins (Elite)

2 Green Bay Ryan Pickett (Very good, B.J. Raji plays defensive end)

3 Baltimore Kelly Gregg (Good, Haloti Ngata plays defensive end)

5 Pittsburgh Casey Hampton (Elite)

 

7 Denver Ronald Fields (Average)

9 Dallas Jay Ratliff (Average)

11 New England Vince Wilfork (Elite)

15 San Francisco Aubrayo Franklin (Elite)

16 San Diego Jamaal Williams (Formerly elite nose tackle)

 

22 Miami Jason Ferguson (Formerly elite, re-signed in spite of 8 game suspension)

30 Kansas City Ron Edwards (sub par nose tackle)

31 Cleveland Shaun Rogers (Elite)

 

The top four 3-4 defenses are star-studded at most positions. They also all have good nose tackles.

 

Denver and Dallas had good defenses with average nose tackles.

 

New England, San Francisco and San Diego have Pro Bowl caliber nose tackles but are average defenses.

 

Miami and Cleveland have poor defenses in spite of having excellent nose tackles.

 

Interestingly, only the New York Jets made the final four of the 2009 Playoffs (Conference Championships).

 

If the Bills can get Dan Williams, Terrence Cody or Cam Thomas with their second pick (wherever that ends up being), I'd be happy.

 

But at the #9 position, none of the top nose tackles are worth the pick.

 

As many of you know by now, I would rather draft an elite pass rusher (this is a great year for pass rushers) who can get sacks, strips, and force interceptions than a college nose tackle who may or may not be better than Ron Brace, who the Patriots drafted in the 2nd round last year.

[3irty1]

As many of you know by now, I would rather draft an elite pass rusher (this is a great year for pass rushers) who can get sacks, strips, and force interceptions than a college nose tackle who may or may not be better than Ron Brace, who the Patriots drafted in the 2nd round last year.

 

I agree, though i still call the NT the LT of defense, 3-4 defenses are only good when you have those pass rushers making an impact that the NT is opening for them. Those OLB are the second most important aspect, due to the fact they not only need to be strong enough to get to the QB, but skilled enough in pass protection as well (see Green Bay's Arron Kampman - sack master that was HORRID when moved to OLB)

 

lets face it, the Bills will improve greatly with any pick that is a LT, QB, or Pass rusher. and please, stop saying you want Spiller, he's great but you already have two great backs, I'd love for Green Bay to have two backs as talented as Lynch and Jackson.

[strive_for_five_guy]

How many 350 pound guys who are mostly muscle do you see out there? They're absolutely huge, and they also have to have tremendous strength. They don't just absorb double-team blocks. They're also supposed to move a step or two towards the play while doing so. Can't you see how difficult it might be to move whichever way you feel like while 650 pounds of weight-trained tough guys do their best to stop you from doing so?

 

Disagree. I'm 180 pounds and could EASILY do the same job. NT = piece of cake.

[apuszczalowski]

Why are they hard to find? Because more then half the teams in the league use that type of defence

[San Jose Bills Fan]

Why are they hard to find? Because more then half the teams in the league use that type of defence

Twelve teams used it as their base defense last year.

 

Fifteen teams are expected to use the 3-4 this year.

 

There are 32 teams in the NFL.

 

There are no more than 5 elite NTs in the NFL right now.

[R. Rich]

Jay Ratliff is considered "average"????? Wow.