Is it Me, or Has This Board...

[DC Tom]

Can you say intellectually inferior?

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It's pronounced just like "Rich in Ohio", isn't it?

[Mickey]

Can you prove they are lieing? So far it's alot of them versus Kerry.  Were they paid by Bush? Your statement reeks of bias. Unless you can prove who's telling the truth I wouldn't be too quick to jump on Kerry's side simply becuase you don't like this president. I personally don't care what happened 35 years ago. I think this controversy benefits Kerry....It keeps our eyes off his voting record.

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Actually, not a single solitary piece of documenatary evidence has surfaced to support their story and further, every document that has been found refutes their story and supports Kerry. All the vets who served on Kerry's boat at the same time Kerry did also support his story. A number of vets involved in those actions have also come forward and verified Kerry's version. Documents have been found and in one case, an audio tape, that shows the lying swifties said one thing back then and quite another now. The official army records which include sworn statements all support Kerry. Further, a number of statements were made by the lying swifties long after the war and long before this election where they were very complimentary with regards to Kerry's service. All that changed once Kerry looked to be the democratic nominee and Bush campaign cash started to flow. IN the last week or two we have had a number of Bush campaign officials resign once their connection to the lying swifties was revealed. Even Dole, when he thought the cameras were off, agreed with McCain's statement that Bush should be ashamed of himself for the kind of tactics used against McCain then and Kerry now (What Bob Dole Really Thinks About Bush.

 

By and large the lying swiftities themselves admit that they have no proof. Most people, if they had no proof, would shut the @#$#@$ up. On the other hand, Kerry's people have abundant proof including all the official reports. I agree with John McCain's opinon of these men, they have dishonored themselves.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

I was attempting to point out to the chef, that the smart lefties will know when their case for Kerry is lost, and will be quieter.  The fanatics, will never cease.  I'll try to use smaller words, and type slower for ya.

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It's NEVER been a case for Kerry for me, it's been a case against Bush.

 

My candidate went out months ago.

[Mickey]

I absolutely disagree.  Both sides have their well informed, calm posters whom I learn a lot from.  And both have their wacked out loudmouths that I avoid.  But in reading the dwindling posts from the left they've got very little to offer to the debate.  Now I don't feel this is a reflection of them personally, it's a reflection of their candidate and their party. 

 

It just appears that the more thoughtout educated posts are coming from people with a more conservative ideal.........NOT REPUBLICANS, conservatives, there is a difference.  Those with a more liberal ideal seem to be more sound bite oriented and more immature.  And that immaturity can be traced to their last Presidential candidate.  What really turned me off Gore was his sighing during the debates.  That, IMO, blew if for him.

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From the other side, all I usually see from the right is a regular refrain of "flip-floppper", "flopenstein", etc. etc. Talk about sound bytes. The lying swifties were quoted here and lauded long before they made it into the mainstream. Then when the proof started coming in that those guys are off the wall stooges, then all I heard from the right on this board was how meaningless it all was. From the same group that made it an issue. That was well before the convention in Boston. "Komrade Kerry" is another one I have seen over and over here. Same with "democrates".

 

I am sure we have screaming looney's enough on our side but you certainly seem blind to your own group. Do you not read Wacka, Boomer/Cpt. Idiot, Gavin, RkFast, stuckincicny, Richio etc.? They almost never post a thought on an honest to goodness issue. Their posts are uniformly negative personal attacks against Kerry. You don't see posts from them along the line of "Kerry's proposal for a prescription drug benefit for veterans is good/bad/flawed/perfection because blah, blah, blah." Instead you hear "He's a flip-flopper", "Kerry lied about his age/medals/service/policies/favorite food/taxes/kids/cars/and pets." "Kerry had botox surgery", "Kerry had an affair", etc. etc. etc. The only thing keeping this board from essentially becoming an echo chamber for an army of parrots is the occasional reach across the divide that is accomplished by some of the more reasonable participants.

 

That, ufortunately, is happening less and less.

 

Take this thread for example. The basic theme is that the left has been a little quiet lately and the conclusion from that unproved, anecdotal piece of pure guesswork, is a list of insults aimed at everyone from the left. Those insults were authored by you and now here you are complaining that people on the left are sound byte oriented and have little to offer. If you do not see the screaming hypocrisy of that there is no point in even attempting to have a dialouge with you.

 

I saw this thread started a few days ago and I never went past your post. It was clear that it was yet another insult the left party here at the PPP likely to draw the snickering applause of the typical candidates so I didn't waste my time reading any further. I checked it out today because I saw that blzrul had entered the fray so I wanted to see what creative new insults were tossed at her.

 

If you are truly wondering why there aren't more meaningful exchanges of information and ideas here at the PPP, just re-read your post starting this thread and that should explain it to you.

[Casey D]

From the other side, all I usually see from the right is a regular refrain of "flip-floppper", "flopenstein", etc. etc.  Talk about sound bytes.  The lying swifties were quoted here and lauded long before they made it into the mainstream.  Then when the proof started coming in that those guys are off the wall stooges, then all I heard from the right on this board was how meaningless it all was.  From the same group that made it an issue.  That was well before the convention in Boston.  "Komrade Kerry" is another one I have seen over and over here.  Same with "democrates". 

 

I am sure we have screaming looney's enough on our side but you certainly seem blind to your own group.  Do you not read Wacka, Boomer/Cpt. Idiot, Gavin, RkFast, stuckincicny, Richio etc.?  They almost never post a thought on an honest to goodness issue.  Their posts are uniformly negative personal attacks against Kerry.  You don't see posts from them along the line of "Kerry's proposal for a prescription drug benefit for veterans is good/bad/flawed/perfection because blah, blah, blah."  Instead you hear "He's a flip-flopper", "Kerry lied about his age/medals/service/policies/favorite food/taxes/kids/cars/and pets." "Kerry had botox surgery", "Kerry had an affair", etc. etc. etc.  The only thing keeping this board from essentially becoming an echo chamber for an army of parrots is the occasional reach across the divide that is accomplished by some of the more reasonable participants.

 

That, ufortunately, is happening less and less.

 

Take this thread for example.  The basic theme is that the left has been a little quiet lately and the conclusion from that unproved, anecdotal piece of pure guesswork, is a list of insults aimed at everyone from the left.  Those insults were authored by you and now here you are complaining that people on the left are sound byte oriented and have little to offer.  If you do not see the screaming hypocrisy of that there is no point in even attempting to have a dialouge with you.

 

I saw this thread started a few days ago and I never went past your post.  It was clear that it was yet another insult the left party here at the PPP likely to draw the snickering applause of the typical candidates so I didn't waste my time reading any further.  I checked it out today because I saw that blzrul had entered the fray so I wanted to see what creative new insults were tossed at her.

 

If you are truly wondering why there aren't more meaningful exchanges of information and ideas here at the PPP, just re-read your post starting this thread and that should explain it to you.

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I stopped posting here a while ago because the right wing bias on the board is so strong. And for these true believers, their political views are almost a matter of religion--facts should never get in the way of their viewpoint. And the only reason I post now is how astonishing it is that given their unwavering faith in their political views, they think that somehow the "intellectual superiority" of their views has been proven because they have driven moderates like me away. They fail to understand that no one is so blind as he who will not see--and it is a waste of my time to try and make them understand based on reason, logic and facts. The social conservatism evidenced here has literally no principled underpinnings--it is simply a view that I should get the government to impose my views on other people because I want to impose my beliefs on others. That, to me, is not social, and certainly not conservative in a a classic libertarian sense. So it is time for me to go again, while the SCs "attaboy" each other here...regards, CD

[DC Tom]

I stopped posting here a while ago because the right wing bias on the board is so strong.  And for these true believers, their political views are almost a matter of religion--facts should never get in the way of their viewpoint.  And the only reason I post now is how astonishing it is that given their unwavering faith in their political views, they think that somehow the "intellectual superiority" of their views has been proven because they have driven moderates like me away.  They fail to understand that no one is so blind as he who will not see--and it is a waste of my time to try and make them understand based on reason, logic and facts.  The social conservatism evidenced here has literally no principled underpinnings--it is simply a view that I should get the government to impose my views on other people because I want to impose my beliefs on others.  That, to me, is not social, and certainly not conservative in a a classic libertarian sense.  So it is time for me to go again, while the SCs "attaboy" each other here...regards, CD

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I see a right-wing bias now...but in the recent past it has been left-wing...and right before that, and left before that, etc... It really is, for whatever reason, a cyclical thing.

 

The REAL issue is that the die-hard zealots on both sides drive the moderates out of any conversation and ultimately away from the board. How can you possibly have any meaningful discussion with someone who's answer to everything is "Kill all Muslims", or "Flight suit! Halliburton!" Zealotry is hardly a right/left wing trait. So now...we have a board where the zealots trade barbs, having driven any non-zealots away. That's the main reason I stopped moderating this board.

[Casey D]

I see a right-wing bias now...but in the recent past it has been left-wing...and right before that, and left before that, etc...  It really is, for whatever reason, a cyclical thing.

 

The REAL issue is that the die-hard zealots on both sides drive the moderates out of any conversation and ultimately away from the board.  How can you possibly have any meaningful discussion with someone who's answer to everything is "Kill all Muslims", or "Flight suit!  Halliburton!"  Zealotry is hardly a right/left wing trait.  So now...we have a board where the zealots trade barbs, having driven any non-zealots away.  That's the main reason I stopped moderating this board.

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Fair enough about zealotry--it does go both ways. It is just generally in America today,however, that the media zealotry comes mostly from the right. O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox News, Michael Savage, Laura Ingraham, Wall Street Journal editorial page, Washington Times, Regnery etc etc, --the market place over the last 10 years has shown that right wing demagogery is profitable. There is little equivalence on the left, with some newer exceptions such as Franken and Moore, who lefties feel are just evening up the score a bit. They are not the big business that the right wing media is.

 

So conservative, nasty demagogery has been in vogue since the mid-1990s, and is very closely reflected here on the board..with the accompanying rudeness and lack of real debate--that is why people like Limbaugh screen their calls, they don't want real debate with real facts, they deliver propaganda and people eat it up and advertisers pay millions... it seems to me the board largely reflects these larger trends...CD

[DC Tom]

Fair enough about zealotry--it does go both ways.  It is just generally in America today,however, that the media zealotry comes mostly from the right.  O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox News, Michael Savage, Laura Ingraham, Wall Street Journal editorial page, Washington Times, Regnery etc etc, --the market place over the last 10 years has shown that right wing demagogery is profitable.  There is little equivalence on the left, with some newer exceptions such as Franken and Moore, who lefties feel are just evening up the score a bit.  They are not the big business that the right wing media is.

 

So conservative, nasty demagogery has been in vogue since the mid-1990s, and is very closely reflected here on the board..with the accompanying rudeness and lack of real debate--that is why people like Limbaugh screen their calls, they don't want real debate with real facts, they deliver propaganda and people eat it up and advertisers pay millions... it seems to me the board largely reflects these larger trends...CD

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I won't disagree about mass-media zealotry...Fox News and the Washington Times, in particular, I find terribly disgusting for their "Don't worry about being accurate, just be first" mentality. (The WSJ I might disagree on as calling "zealous". Certainly conservative, as most financial journals by necessity are. But last I read it, which was a while ago, it wasn't over-zealous in being conservative.)

 

But talking specifically about the board...I see it as being pretty evenly matched overall. IF that's because of Rush, Hannity, Fox, etc., I can accept that the left-wing zealots here are motivated simply by the idea of responding in kind (even though turnabout is NOT fair play.) I don't think that's it, though...honestly, I think this is just an extraordinarliy polarizing administration we have in office right now, and at an extremely difficult time (war, shaky economy, erosion of civil liberties - necessary or not), which makes the arguments much more emotionally charged than they'd otherwise be. From what I've read here, it doesn't seem that the majority of posters on either side are regular disciples of any of the mass media zealots (save the more general ones like Fox or the Washington Times).

[Casey D]

I won't disagree about mass-media zealotry...Fox News and the Washington Times, in particular, I find terribly disgusting for their "Don't worry about being accurate, just be first" mentality.  (The WSJ I might disagree on as calling "zealous".  Certainly conservative, as most financial journals by necessity are.  But last I read it, which was a while ago, it wasn't over-zealous in being conservative.) 

 

But talking specifically about the board...I see it as being pretty evenly matched overall.  IF that's because of Rush, Hannity, Fox, etc., I can accept that the left-wing zealots here are motivated simply by the idea of responding in kind (even though turnabout is NOT fair play.)  I don't think that's it, though...honestly, I think this is just an extraordinarliy polarizing administration we have in office right now, and at an extremely difficult time (war, shaky economy, erosion of civil liberties - necessary or not), which makes the arguments much more emotionally charged than they'd otherwise be.  From what I've read here, it doesn't seem that the majority of posters on either side are regular disciples of any of the mass media zealots  (save the more general ones like Fox or the Washington Times).

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That seems right.. and passion is probably better than apathy, even if misguided. But it is still not profitable use of time to try and persuade the unpersuadable. Besides, if you can't do it, I know I can't in light of your moniker at the bottom of your page...lol...CD

[Chef Jim]

Take this thread for example. The basic theme is that the left has been a little quiet lately and the conclusion from that unproved, anecdotal piece of pure guesswork, is a list of insults aimed at everyone from the left. Those insults were authored by you and now here you are complaining that people on the left are sound byte oriented and have little to offer. If you do not see the screaming hypocrisy of that there is no point in even attempting to have a dialouge with you.

 

I saw this thread started a few days ago and I never went past your post. It was clear that it was yet another insult the left party here at the PPP likely to draw the snickering applause of the typical candidates so I didn't waste my time reading any further. I checked it out today because I saw that blzrul had entered the fray so I wanted to see what creative new insults were tossed at her.

 

If you are truly wondering why there aren't more meaningful exchanges of information and ideas here at the PPP, just re-read your post starting this thread and that should explain it to you.

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My original post was in insult to the left?? Wow Mick, time to thicken up that skin a bit. Sorry if you felt that way, didn't mean it as an insult and after re-reading it, it sure didn't sound too insulting. If you were insulted, maybe it hit too close to home...

[Chef Jim]

Now THERE is an important basis for choosing a President.  Not examining records or anything.

 

Gore's sighing WAS exasperating and annoying and I was disgusted and embarrassed for him.  But I certainly didn't base my vote on that any more than I would have Bush's folksy style (as I said at the time, he's gonna aw-shucks his way right to the White House and people are going to be sorry they fell for it).

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Yes, someone who exasperates, annoys, disgusts, and embarrasses me (see we do agree on things ) is an important basis for choosing a President. Could you imagine him in a conference with world leaders and pulling that childish act with someone he didn't agree with? Not me. That's why, at the minute, he lost my vote.

[Mickey]

If you are truly wondering why there aren't more meaningful exchanges of information and ideas here at the PPP, just re-read your post starting this thread and that should explain it to you.

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My original post was in insult to the left?? Wow Mick, time to thicken up that skin a bit. Sorry if you felt that way, didn't mean it as an insult and after re-reading it, it sure didn't sound too insulting. If you were insulted, maybe it hit too close to home...

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Here is what you said about the left on the board:

 

"1. They have nothing to add anymore.

2. They realize their guy is in deep stevestojan.

3. They can't compete.

4. They're all on their way to NY in their best hippy gear to create chaos"

 

 

Lets see now, all you said is that we are a bunch of hippies who can't compete because we are full of sh*t and have nothing else to offer.

 

Gee, now why would I take that as an insult? Is that what you consider to be a cordial invitation to a meaningful exchange of ideas? Is this what you call mature? Look,

[tennesseeboy]

Actually Jim, I've spent the better part of the last two weeks participating in voter registration drives in politically democratic enclaves, working wit a democratic legislative candidate and helping a democratic candidate for congress on an education policy. Time to stop talking and start doing. But you righties really should stay here sitting at your computer and blowing smoke up each others asses!

[Captain America]

Actually Jim, I've spent the better part of the last two weeks participating in voter registration drives in politically democratic enclaves, working wit a democratic legislative candidate and helping a democratic candidate for congress on an education policy.  Time to stop talking and start doing.  But you righties really should stay here sitting at your computer and blowing smoke up each others asses!

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Ah then you were in the ghetto or a run down trailer park.However I agree the democrats need all the help they can get

[RkFast]

I always get a real kick out of the grenade throwers who then turn into "victims" the moment it suits them.

[stuckincincy]

Actually Jim, I've spent the better part of the last two weeks participating in voter registration drives in politically democratic enclaves, working wit a democratic legislative candidate and helping a democratic candidate for congress on an education policy.  Time to stop talking and start doing.  But you righties really should stay here sitting at your computer and blowing smoke up each others asses!

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I'm curious as to why you would want to encourage people to vote, who do not already see and understand the value of doing so. How are we served by inducing people to vote who pay no attention to their nation, or the world about them? Do you want such to guide the course of the Nation?

[Mickey]

I'm curious as to why you would want to encourage people to vote, who do not already see and understand the value of doing so. How are we served by inducing people to vote who pay no attention to their nation, or the world about them? Do you want such to guide the course of the Nation?

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Why not voter IQ tests? How about a current events exam issued at the polling place? Just because a voter is registered doesn't mean that he has paid any attention to what is going on let alone has even a vague understanding of the issues. I never figured you for an elitist.

[Gavin in Va Beach]

Why not voter IQ tests?  How about a current events exam issued at the polling place?  Just because a voter is registered doesn't mean that he has paid any attention to what is going on let alone has even a vague understanding of the issues.  I never figured you for an elitist.

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"Lets see now, all you said is that we are a bunch of hippies who can't compete because we are full of sh*t and have nothing else to offer.

 

Gee, now why would I take that as an insult? Is that what you consider to be a cordial invitation to a meaningful exchange of ideas? Is this what you call mature?"

 

[tennesseeboy]

That's the difference between us. I believe that people should register and vote. When we register them we talk about issues. One woman who registered had a son in Iraq. She has bigger stake in this than you or I. Others are worried about health care, the Quebecor plant layoffs, the 67000 jobs lost in Tennessee in the last four years, their inability to pay for health care. They have a stake in the process. The $130 billion war resonates, as does the $472 billion dollar deficit, the proposal to cut back the tax cuts for the rich. You'd be surprised how interested they are after a little discussion other than whether the shrapnel went in an inch, who is picking their nose, or what a flip flop is. Kind of invigorating actually.

 

I'm curious as to why you would want to encourage people to vote, who do not already see and understand the value of doing so. How are we served by inducing people to vote who pay no attention to their nation, or the world about them? Do you want such to guide the course of the Nation?

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[stuckincincy]

Why not voter IQ tests?  How about a current events exam issued at the polling place?  Just because a voter is registered doesn't mean that he has paid any attention to what is going on let alone has even a vague understanding of the issues.  I never figured you for an elitist.

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Not an elitist at all, Mick, not at all. But surely you see this drive to the lowest common denominator. Motor Voter is an example. The time was when people made an effort - a source of pride - to be somewhere where the excercise of voting was available. That people today complain that the simple act of punching out a rectangle in a simple piece of stiff paper (not checking their work) is a task unaccomplishible is a worry.

 

I certainly do not critize citizens for not being up-to-date on the incessant school levy issurs (although I do question why those who suffer not, can vote to raise the taxes of others) or the who-knows?-judicial unchallenged elections. Don't get me started on county DA's (!!!).

 

Got to go. I'd like to re-visit the subject.

[Alaska Darin]

That's the difference between us.  I believe that people should register and vote.  When we register them we talk about issues.  One woman who registered had a son in Iraq.  She has  bigger stake in this than you or I.  Others are worried about health care, the Quebecor plant layoffs, the 67000 jobs lost in Tennessee in the last four years, their inability to pay for health care.  They have a stake in the process.  The $130 billion war resonates, as does the $472 billion dollar deficit, the proposal to cut back the tax cuts for the rich.  You'd be surprised how interested they are after a little discussion other than whether the shrapnel went in an inch, who is picking their nose, or what a flip flop is.  Kind of invigorating actually.

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I don't see it as any different than the rhetoric in your own post. The taxation levels in this country are absolutely criminal. Regardless of which party is in charge, we are paying more than enough to the government - more than the GDP of all but a handful of countries.

 

The problem that neither party will address, is spending. John Kerry's platform includes almost $2,000,000,000,000.00 in new spending over the next 10 years. Higher taxes on the rich are not going to be enough to fund this largess.

 

Until people start waking up and realizing that the government is screwing us, regardless of who is in charge, the country will grow weaker. We can keep pretending that the bubble economy of the previous 8 years was worthwhile, or we can realize that there are significant problems with our current form of government that a campaign against rich people isn't going to solve.

[_BiB_]

Actually Jim, I've spent the better part of the last two weeks participating in voter registration drives in politically democratic enclaves, working wit a democratic legislative candidate and helping a democratic candidate for congress on an education policy.  Time to stop talking and start doing.  But you righties really should stay here sitting at your computer and blowing smoke up each others asses!

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Hey, Ed takes a stand, and does not back away. Maybe more than the "righties" believe oftentimes. Here, it's drool, from either side.

 

You have to decide who's right.

[Chef Jim]

Here is what you said about the left on the board:

 

"1. They have nothing to add anymore.

2. They realize their guy is in deep stevestojan.

3. They can't compete.

4. They're all on their way to NY in their best hippy gear to create chaos"

Lets see now, all you said is that we are a bunch of hippies who can't compete because we are full of sh*t and have nothing else to offer.

 

Gee, now why would I take that as an insult? Is that what you consider to be a cordial invitation to a meaningful exchange of ideas? Is this what you call mature? Look,

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I said you were full of stevestojan??? You know Mick, I've read my post a few times and can't quite figure out where I wrote that. Calling you a hippy is an insult?? Damn, I was one 30 years ago. I guess you're just easily offended.....sorry.

[RkFast]

This thread really is a hoot. I dont know what's funnier..the biggest bombthrowers crying "IM A VICTIM!" or the rest who lament the fact that this board is not some online facsimile of politics debate at Harvard.

 

Whats REALLY funny and downright sad is that the people who are getting called out as the "scum" of the board like boomer, tb or myself ( I do not recall calling VT a "spermsuit", BTW) are the only ones who are truly HONEST here. See.. at least we dont make any illusions to be something we are not. The rest of you, and you know who you are are being truly pathetic. YOU KNOW DAMN WELL youre as guilty as the above-mentioned in bringing down the discourse here to the level of "Romper Room" on MORE than one occasion. But you bulshit everyone and pat yourselves on the back that youre innocent and above the fray.

 

And thats just lame.

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

This thread really is a hoot. I dont know what's funnier..the biggest bombthrowers crying "IM A VICTIM!" or the rest who lament the fact that this board is not some online facsimile of politics debate at Harvard.

 

Whats REALLY funny and downright sad is that the people who are getting called out as the "scum" of the board like boomer, tb or myself ( I do not recall calling VT a "spermsuit", BTW) are the only ones who are truly HONEST here. See.. at least we dont make any illusions to be something we are not. The rest of you, and you know who you are are being truly pathetic. YOU KNOW DAMN WELL youre as guilty as the above-mentioned in bringing down the discourse here to the level of "Romper Room" on MORE than one occasion. But you bulshit everyone and pat yourselves on the back that youre innocent and above the fray.

 

And thats just lame.

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I remember the topic a few weeks ago when I had posted something, you posted just 'SPERMSUIT!!!', and I lost my cool and said something about writing a leaflet or something. Since then, I don't remember us having any sort of a verbal exchange of anything bad. I just wish that we could keep the damn insults and names to ourselves... we all know that we will have disagreements, but I think it's crazy for others to complain about the names when they themselves use them on many occasions. I admit I have been guilty in the past, but recently I think I have roped in my wily emotions and done a damn fine job. Both sides have their ranters, though. whew!

[RkFast]

VT..."SPERMSUIT" was not an insult directed at you. It was an offshoot reference to "FLIGHTSUIT!!!", which around these parts is shorthand for "Quit with the BS talking points and get with the discussion."

 

No matter..................................

[Guest RabidBillsFanVT]

AHHH, I see. Total misunderstanding. It's cool, though.