Leslie (Token) Frazer

[bills_fan_in_raleigh]

Great Rule some teams like Bill, Steelers honor it while Snyder and Paul Allen ignore it

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

It seems like it's done some good in getting some people some opportunities for introductions and conversations. Enough so that it's no longer effective or useful? I still think it could do some more good, and is certainly not doing any harm, so I wouldn't be in an all-fire hurry to toss it aside right now.

Simon I agree with you that the Rooney Rule still has some good it can do and I am quite impressed with it as an approach which avoids the utter stupidity of quota but actually shows that making an affirmative action is a completely different thing than a stupid hiring quota.

 

The keys to me to the Rooney Rule are that it:

 

1. Is a self-mandate by the NFL of equal opportunity rather than mechanistic quota hiring. By mandating that teams make a credible attempt at interviewing candidates from races previously discriminated against it has done an elegant job of not trying to destroy the good ol boy network (which created stupidities like Rich Kotite getting two chances to HC teams to disaster while an HC capable of winning the SB under the right circumstances like Tony Dungy was passed over for years) but forcing diversification of the good old boy network.

 

Under the Rooney Rule a candidate not viewed as a serious HC prospect like Tomlin got an HC job and his team won the SB (whether one gives the Rooney Rule credit for this it did happen under the Rooney Ruke structure and that is just a fact).

 

2. The Rooney Rule is not the only part of what is a comprehensive commitment by the NFL to reverse decades of obvious discrimination against people of color. It really is the minority coaching intern program which has given dozens of men jobs at the lower rungs of coaching which has made many minority candidates members of the good ol boy network which has been the tool of discrimination for years. Its hard to beat back human inconsistencies in behavior but the Rooney Rule and minority internship program have harnessed the good ol boy network into doing positive work rather than simply negative work.

 

3. The heavy fining of DET when they flaunted the Rooney Rule was important to making it work. As numerous minority coaches are now proving what an idiot Jimmy the Greek was when he flat out claimed human beings of minority descent did not have some of the necessary skills to be an HC or baseball manager was a key to getting folks to operate in their own self-interest and hire men like Dungy and Tomlin. It remains to be seen whether the NFL is making a mistake in letting Sea hire Carroll while from my view flaunting the rule (though to me the person really treated badly here is Jim Mora who got only 1 season to right the stupid Seahawk ship and then got tossed overboard for this weeks flavor).

 

Still it is some of the comments seen in this thread that lead me most to question whether the NFL is making a mistake by not fining Sea the way they fined DET. It amazes me to see posts in this thread where people actually site Tony Dungy being a successful HC as evidence the Rooney Rule is unecessary. It was actually specifically Tony Dungy who should have been an HC as much as 3-5 yers sooner than he got the TB job based on the ability he had shown since he retired as an athlete.

 

Particularly in a league where somewhere around 2/3 of the athletes are people of color the fact that pre=Rooney Rule there were only a couple of minority HCs among 30+ positions was a stupidity that simply could not stand in a society which stood for fairness and in a business where so many of the workers are people of color.

 

The Rooney Rule and the whole approach taken by the NFL (in part because after the last CBA guaranteed 60.5% if the total gross receipts to the players argubly making them the majority partner in this endeavor is actually quite cool IMHO.

 

I doubt its utility has passed until we see the racial make-up of the players and the racial make-up of the HCs and GMs to be more similar, Not the same at all but certainly more similar and I do not think that is the case yet.

[JinVA]

I don't know if he was pinned from the get-go but he is somebody they were very interested in well before they hired him.

I haven't had the chance to meet Tomlin yet. Is he as good a dude as he seems to be?

Yes, a very smart and articulate guy, like I said before we're not buddy buddy by any stretch of the imagination we just happen to have several mutual friends and I've had the chance to chat with him here and there.

[Simon]

Yes, a very smart and articulate guy, like I said before we're not buddy buddy by any stretch of the imagination we just happen to have several mutual friends and I've had the chance to chat with him here and there.

Some guys around here are calling him Confucius because he sounds like a wise Chinese philosopher. I've been trying to get them to go with Lao Tse but I just keep getting cracked in the head.

 

 

The keys to me to the Rooney Rule are that it:

 

1. Is a self-mandate by the NFL of equal opportunity rather than mechanistic quota hiring.

Good post. You get it

[zazie]

Simon I agree with you that the Rooney Rule still has some good it can do and I am quite impressed with it as an approach which avoids the utter stupidity of quota but actually shows that making an affirmative action is a completely different thing than a stupid hiring quota.

 

The keys to me to the Rooney Rule are that it:

 

1. Is a self-mandate by the NFL of equal opportunity rather than mechanistic quota hiring. By mandating that teams make a credible attempt at interviewing candidates from races previously discriminated against it has done an elegant job of not trying to destroy the good ol boy network (which created stupidities like Rich Kotite getting two chances to HC teams to disaster while an HC capable of winning the SB under the right circumstances like Tony Dungy was passed over for years) but forcing diversification of the good old boy network.

 

Under the Rooney Rule a candidate not viewed as a serious HC prospect like Tomlin got an HC job and his team won the SB (whether one gives the Rooney Rule credit for this it did happen under the Rooney Ruke structure and that is just a fact).

 

2. The Rooney Rule is not the only part of what is a comprehensive commitment by the NFL to reverse decades of obvious discrimination against people of color. It really is the minority coaching intern program which has given dozens of men jobs at the lower rungs of coaching which has made many minority candidates members of the good ol boy network which has been the tool of discrimination for years. Its hard to beat back human inconsistencies in behavior but the Rooney Rule and minority internship program have harnessed the good ol boy network into doing positive work rather than simply negative work.

 

3. The heavy fining of DET when they flaunted the Rooney Rule was important to making it work. As numerous minority coaches are now proving what an idiot Jimmy the Greek was when he flat out claimed human beings of minority descent did not have some of the necessary skills to be an HC or baseball manager was a key to getting folks to operate in their own self-interest and hire men like Dungy and Tomlin. It remains to be seen whether the NFL is making a mistake in letting Sea hire Carroll while from my view flaunting the rule (though to me the person really treated badly here is Jim Mora who got only 1 season to right the stupid Seahawk ship and then got tossed overboard for this weeks flavor).

 

Still it is some of the comments seen in this thread that lead me most to question whether the NFL is making a mistake by not fining Sea the way they fined DET. It amazes me to see posts in this thread where people actually site Tony Dungy being a successful HC as evidence the Rooney Rule is unecessary. It was actually specifically Tony Dungy who should have been an HC as much as 3-5 yers sooner than he got the TB job based on the ability he had shown since he retired as an athlete.

 

Particularly in a league where somewhere around 2/3 of the athletes are people of color the fact that pre=Rooney Rule there were only a couple of minority HCs among 30+ positions was a stupidity that simply could not stand in a society which stood for fairness and in a business where so many of the workers are people of color.

 

The Rooney Rule and the whole approach taken by the NFL (in part because after the last CBA guaranteed 60.5% if the total gross receipts to the players argubly making them the majority partner in this endeavor is actually quite cool IMHO.

 

I doubt its utility has passed until we see the racial make-up of the players and the racial make-up of the HCs and GMs to be more similar, Not the same at all but certainly more similar and I do not think that is the case yet.

I think Jimmy assertion was that blacks had been bred to be better athlestes by their slave masters. Somewhat true I am sure but deeply offensive to verbalize.

[cusebob]

No Rooney rule for GMs and I don't believe there are any minorities in those positions.

 

The league is 70-plus percent black. The rule makes a whole lot of sense, as far as I'm concerned.

[Captain Caveman]

No Rooney rule for GMs and I don't believe there are any minorities in those positions.

 

The league is 70-plus percent black. The rule makes a whole lot of sense, as far as I'm concerned.

 

Actually, the rule now applies to front office positions (including GM as well.)

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...9061502806.html

[papazoid]

it is too complicated of a subject to dignify with a simple answer. suffice it to say that it has provided opportunities, advancement and experience to minority candidates who otherwise might not have been considered for head coaching and higher positions of leadership within the NFL. On the flip side it can be viewed as demeaning to minority candidates who feel they are not seriously being considered for the job and are only being interviewed/used to satisfy the rule.

 

minority candidates are free to decide for themselves if they want to go thru the process because they feel they have a legimate shot for the job or simply for the experience of the process itself to better prepare themselves for the next opportunity, or they can simply decline to be interviewed.

 

teams themselves depending on time constraints and/or preference can decide if they want to follow the spirit of the rule or ignore it and accept the penalty in order to hire the candidate that they truly want.

 

Penalties are at the discretion of the Commisioner of the NFL, Roger Goodell. They include financial fines and loss of draft picks.

 

if you are truly interested in a more detailed explanation, please read the following:

 

http://www.acslaw.org/files/Proxmire%20Issue%20Brief.pdf

[spartacus]

worked perfectly in that situation. Steelers identified a couple of in-house guys, who happened to be white. They brought in Tomlin, probably partially per the Rooney Rule, and he blew them away.

 

actually they met the Rooney rule, gave the job to Russ Grimm and infomred he was the new coach.

 

then the NFL "suggested" they put their money where their mouth is and hire a minority since the rule was named after Rooney after all.

[C.Biscuit97]

More whites should be playing wr, rb, and cb! The population ratio reflects discrimination!

 

Our society has sacrificed accountability for accommodation. The Rooney Rule is a joke.

 

Maybe Calvin Johnson is a better WR than Jordy Nelson. Maybe Pete Caroll has earned a spot at the front of line based on performance..

 

 

Seriously??? How ignorant are you? You really think the NFL operates like a old boys network? Why do the same loser head coaches keep getting hired? And your silly point about white playing other positions is beyond stupid because they are given every chance to play. They just aren't as good.

 

The point of the Rooney rule is that black or minority coaches weren't even given the chance to interview. How are you going to find an upcoming and coming without ever interviewing someone.

 

What Seattle did was a joke and it does make the Rooney Rule look silly. But you're completely naive to think this isn't a very benefical rule. And given the track record of success the Rooneys and the hiring of a guy like Tomlin who may not had been interviewed without it, perhaps other teams should foolow their lead.

[DCbillsfan]

Yeah I know, but he was off the radar until the Steelers had their "mandatory" interview with him.

The Rooney rule is named after Rooney who owns the Steelers. He is the one largely responsible for the rule hence the "Rooney Rule". Don't you remember when he was presented the Lombardi Trophy last year and he thanked President Obama for some odd reason after the Steelers won the Super Bowl.

[Thoner7]

I thought it was called the Racist Rule?

 

Requiring something based solely on race... aint that the defintion?

[zazie]

Dungy certainly talks a lot. I thought he would have a graceful retirement, instead is Mike Vick this and Rooney Rule that.

 

Shut up, sit down, already.

[GrudginglyPessimistic]

I thought it was called the Racist Rule?

 

Requiring something based solely on race... aint that the defintion?

 

I think the Rooney Rule when considered by any sane person is all about race and racist practices. It was designed to try to reverse the effects of past racist practices by the NFL which had led to numerous qualified individuals not even getting interviews simply due to their race which does not determine whether they would be a good coach or not.

 

Race was and is now clearly a factor, but now it is used as a factor to assure that qualified applicants of color will at least get interviewed for HC and front office jobs.

 

The implementation of the Rooney Rule has coincided with the hiring of a larger number of applicants of color as HCs (the general guess is that some of this might have happened without RR but also that some of this may well have happened due to RR and a more serious focus by the NFL on this issues as reflected in efforts like their minority coaching intern program).

 

Yes, Virginia, race was an issue then and race remains an issue now (duh)!

 

The neat thing is that the uptick in the # of HCs of color has coincided with an outstanding level of achievement by coaches of color and this has happened without the stupid use of hiring quotas.

 

Most folks of import here seem to be quite happy with the outcome of real world events.

 

I see few reasons in the real world to complain about the Rooney Rule. Hiring of HCs in the NFL seems fairer in conjunction with it being implemented.

[JinVA]

The Rooney rule is named after Rooney who owns the Steelers. He is the one largely responsible for the rule hence the "Rooney Rule". Don't you remember when he was presented the Lombardi Trophy last year and he thanked President Obama for some odd reason after the Steelers won the Super Bowl.

Thanks for the heads up!

[C.Biscuit97]

Dungy certainly talks a lot. I thought he would have a graceful retirement, instead is Mike Vick this and Rooney Rule that.

 

Shut up, sit down, already.

 

 

You realize he works in the media and his job is to give his opinions, right? Yet another brilliant poster by a great poster.