I'm Glad Bills Fired John Allaire, strength and conditioning coach

[Red]

i appreciate your background and opinion and ultimately looking to have an informed discussion as we're discussing health, a very important matter. i completely agree that an athlete's training should reflect the specific task(s) he needs to accomplish. that should also be accompanied by an overall health and fitness program (which we all need), which i strongly believe in most cases is way over the top and counterproductive.

 

as far as genetics id say finding your limit is rather simple ... you perform a sound program and at some point you reach your strength, growth and endurance potential. at that point you need to keep training or your improvements will reverse... your body will do what you tell it to do PROVIDED it's within its limitations

 

Joe, THERE IS NOTHING HEALTHY ABOUT BEING A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE!!!!!

 

Tell me what is healthy about playing professional football? What is healthy about getting pounded?

 

This has nothing to do with health.

 

Again, as far as genetics, how do you KNOW when you have reached your 'potential'?

[strive_for_five_guy]

thanks for ridiculously exaggerating what i said, on a very serious health matter. nice work fella. you're obviously sold on over training. i wish you the best of luck in still being able to walk as you age. most marathoners end up old biologically old well before their time and many barely able to walk. and just look at all the fatties busting their butts on stairmasters "week in/week out" before lecturing anyone. weight management is all about calories consumed, you cannot "burn off" fat with cardio from over eating, another huge myth. at most you may be able to generate excess calorie usage of around 250 in an intense workout session which is nothing compared to the calorie intake of over eating. and most people simply increase their calorie intake above and beyond what the burn in a gym anyone, to compensate. working off excess eating ... especially sugars ... would mean coming close to death. something the messengers in ancient greece did all the time at the end of their runs (i.e. the original marathon runners for whom the race was named after.)

 

I'm pretty sure the Bills are NOT running marathons during the week.

 

I get your point, though, MAYBE their Bills are being overworked during the week. Or MAYBE they have a bunch of undersized players. Or MAYBE they have a bunch of athletes less skilled than those on the other teams and get themselves in awkward situations. Regardless, all of this is just pure speculation. But, I think you are very quick to dismiss certain types of recovery workouts that the Bills could do during the week (if they aren't already), such as yoga, stretching, light indoor biking...BREATHING is another very important aspect to athletic performance and by being a "couch potato" for an entire week that aspect of performing on the field goes quickly.

[5 Wide]

i still subscribe to my own theory: sucky players who get dominated physically get put into more physically damaging situations as a matter of course.

 

I 100% agree

 

Marginal players need to play borderline out of control to keep up with more talent. It leads them to be put in compromising positions and injuries occur.

[truth on hold]

I 100% agree

 

Marginal players need to play borderline out of control to keep up with more talent. It leads them to be put in compromising positions and injuries occur.

mitchell, poz, mcgee, butler, wood, mckelvin etc etc are not marginal players that get dominated physically.

[Mike in Syracuse]

mitchell, poz, mcgee, butler, wood, mckelvin etc etc are not marginal players that get dominated physically.

 

There is absolutely NOTHING you can do in a gym that prevents you from breaking your arm or breaking your leg. I didn't see what caused Poz's break but there isn't a training technique or philosophy that would've prevented Wood's injury.

 

A tremendous amount of today's sports injuries are to the connective tissues. I think it's becoming obvious that the human frame can only accommodate a certain amount of musculature. Overdevelop and you're just going to rip up the squishy stuff that holds you together.

 

Bodybuilders don't fit in this equation because other than lifting the weights, they don't do any of the athletic moves that a modern NFL player does.

[truth on hold]

There is absolutely NOTHING you can do in a gym that prevents you from breaking your arm or breaking your leg. I didn't see what caused Poz's break but there isn't a training technique or philosophy that would've prevented Wood's injury.

 

A tremendous amount of today's sports injuries are to the connective tissues. I think it's becoming obvious that the human frame can only accommodate a certain amount of musculature. Overdevelop and you're just going to rip up the squishy stuff that holds you together.

 

Bodybuilders don't fit in this equation because other than lifting the weights, they don't do any of the athletic moves that a modern NFL player does.

thats absolutely wrong. over training loses muscle mass and strength, makes you slower and provides less support for bones. its very dangerous to think otherwise

[4BillsintheBurgh]

I was never really a subscriber into the 'genetic' thing. How does one know when they have reached their genetic 'potential'? Should they just stop, at that mythical place then, as any further training will only serve to be the equivalent of running in mud? How does one find their genetic 'potential'? To me, the genetics argument is an argument made by losers and people trying to sell you something.

You need to work with top athletes more to understand what he is talking about. A person that can bench press 225 lbs 20 times can have very different body types from a musculature standpoint. If those perople are the same height but differ in weight by a sizeable percentage, one of them is not a loser.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

thats absolutely wrong. over training loses muscle mass and strength, makes you slower and provides less support for bones. its very dangerous to think otherwise

So if that's wrong, Wood wouldn't have broken his leg if he wasn't on the practice field during during the season? Because that's where the rubber of your theory meets the road.

[truth on hold]

So if that's wrong, Wood wouldn't have broken his leg if he wasn't on the practice field during during the season? Because that's where the rubber of your theory meets the road.

i have no idea what would have happened to wood, one way or the other. neither do you. but my suspicion as previously stated is the high degree of bills injuries is coming from over training. im looking at the team as a whole, focusing on one injury is too small a sample set to draw conclusions

[Nevergiveup]

i have no idea what would have happened to wood, one way or the other. neither do you. but my suspicion as previously stated is the high degree of bills injuries is coming from over training. im looking at the team as a whole, focusing on one injury is too small a sample set to draw conclusions

 

 

They are not overtraining. I am telling you there is no way a head coach that was as player friendly as Jaroun and ran one of the easiest camps and off-season programs any where would allow his S&C coach to overtrain anyone. Dick's strategy was to go easy on his players to keep them healthy. If it is anything, it is the exact opposite. Please stop with this nonsense.

 

Are there different training techniques that can help with injury prevenetion? Of course, but if you think JT Allaire was not up on the latest you are kiddng yourself. If anything, with a coach as weak as Jaroun, he was not able to get the suport to implement and get compliance with the programs he wanted to install.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

i have no idea what would have happened to wood, one way or the other. neither do you. but my suspicion as previously stated is the high degree of bills injuries is coming from over training. im looking at the team as a whole, focusing on one injury is too small a sample set to draw conclusions

I know that the lateral force applied to his bones broke them and that force was large enough regardless of his training. Period. Basic physics. The only thing that would have helped him is the Bills player who was supposed to be blocking the player who caused the injury would have done his job.

 

What do you define as "over training"? I don't believe teams do very much aereobic training during the season and their overall training is pretty regulated as opposed to during the off season when the players can be on their own.

 

I remember that TO mentioned he could play for more years if he was treated the way Jauron had treated him. Since TO seems to be into training, I think that is also a statement about the level of training going on at OBD.

[5 Wide]

mitchell, poz, mcgee, butler, wood, mckelvin etc etc are not marginal players that get dominated physically.

 

The Marginal players around them can also contribute. I'm just saying that if you are less talented, then you need to play out of control at times to make up for your lack of talent, which may lead to more injuries.

[....lybob]

Over training is an individual issue- effected by genetics, sleep and rest, nutrition, mental stress, general health and so on- in general you'd like strength work outs to be short and very intense 12-20min. - in general you are trying to do three things 1. create an anabolic environment (increasing growth hormone and testosterone) 2. teaching the nervous system how to contract muscle maximumly both individually and in groups. 3. doing controlled damage to muscle fibers then trying to maximize the repair process. The issue usually isn't so simple as more or less but smarter and goal focused- for example a trainer has to know what is going to help a player more- moving his bench from 400 to 425 or increasing his back and hamstring flexibility so he can play a couple of inches lower or losing a little body fat so he can get out of his stance a tenth of a sec faster.

[Billsguy]

I don't know why but the Bills suffer waaaayy to many injuries. S&C coach has to go.

 

All this talk about the strength coach and not one word about the incompetent trainer : Bud Carpenter.

 

An incompetent trainer can put players in a vulnerable position by failing to rehabilitate injuries properly.

 

Why the oversight by everyone on this critical staff position?

 

I hope the new coach brings in a quality trainer.

[truth on hold]

All this talk about the strength coach and not one word about the incompetent trainer : Bud Carpenter.

 

An incompetent trainer can put players in a vulnerable position by failing to rehabilitate injuries properly.

 

Why the oversight by everyone on this critical staff position?

 

I hope the new coach brings in a quality trainer.

could be, i don't really know the difference btw the 2 functions.

[truth on hold]

They are not overtraining. I am telling you there is no way a head coach that was as player friendly as Jaroun and ran one of the easiest camps and off-season programs any where would allow his S&C coach to overtrain anyone. Dick's strategy was to go easy on his players to keep them healthy. If it is anything, it is the exact opposite. Please stop with this nonsense.

 

Are there different training techniques that can help with injury prevenetion? Of course, but if you think JT Allaire was not up on the latest you are kiddng yourself. If anything, with a coach as weak as Jaroun, he was not able to get the suport to implement and get compliance with the programs he wanted to install.

you and i arent in there so we dont really know.

 

but maybe its the "high motor" credo they instilled on players. getting them to go flat out all the time every play. basically given how taxing football is on the body (which is already over training), anything above and beyond whats necessary just makes it worse. i personally cringe every time i see a bill make a long run down the field chasing a guy he'll never catch. that guy will be less effective for upcoming plays when he can actually make a difference. "high motor" "max effort" "hussle" all sounds nice, but in reality it can hurt. play smart sounds better to me

[Thurman#1]

I remember the number of injuries increasing when Wade Philips left and especially when Rusty Jones left. The Bills seemed to always be injured. I also have a vague memory of someone telling me that all strength and conditioning coaches are created equal.

 

On the other hand, I think the whole undersided defense is also part of the problem. Buddy Nix is right on that.

 

 

 

Chicago, Tampa and Indy run the same defense with smaller guys. None of them have anywhere near the amount of injuries we have had the past three years.

[K-9]

All this talk about the strength coach and not one word about the incompetent trainer : Bud Carpenter.

 

An incompetent trainer can put players in a vulnerable position by failing to rehabilitate injuries properly.

 

Why the oversight by everyone on this critical staff position?

 

I hope the new coach brings in a quality trainer.

 

I brought this up recently in another thread on the same inane subject about Allaire, an award winning protege of Rusty Jones. One MUST look at the rehab and injury prevention techniques employed by the training staff. That is THEIR main responsibility, not the S&C staff. I'm with you 100% on this issue. I suggested in that previous thread that one might want to research the different responsbilities of the training and S&C staffs. Never heard back if anyone did. And I refuse to do the homework for them. But until peopla actually DO understand the different responsibilities, then everyone that pins it on Allaire and his staff just doesn't care to know WTF they're talking about.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[Thurman#1]

Hire this guy... http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/...-john-lott.html

 

 

 

I'd never heard of him before, but he sounds great. Let's get him.

 

The Cards have five guys on IR this year. The Bills have 18, unless they've gone up to 19 without me noticing.

[Thurman#1]

thanks for ridiculously exaggerating what i said, on a very serious health matter. nice work fella. you're obviously sold on over training. i wish you the best of luck in still being able to walk as you age. most marathoners end up old biologically old well before their time and many barely able to walk. and just look at all the fatties busting their butts on stairmasters "week in/week out" before lecturing anyone. weight management is all about calories consumed, you cannot "burn off" fat with cardio from over eating, another huge myth. at most you may be able to generate excess calorie usage of around 250 in an intense workout session which is nothing compared to the calorie intake of over eating. and most people simply increase their calorie intake above and beyond what the burn in a gym anyone, to compensate. working off excess eating ... especially sugars ... would mean coming close to death. something the messengers in ancient greece did all the time at the end of their runs (i.e. the original marathon runners for whom the race was named after.)

 

 

 

First, I agree that there's a lot of overtraining going on out there. But you're overstating your case in several areas.

 

I personally know plenty of older marathoners and none of them are having any problem getting around. In fact, they are a lot healthier and sprier than a huge majority of people their age. Look at the case of Johnny Kelley of Boston marathon fame. And there are thousands if not millions of others. I'm sure there are also many who have joint problems, but a lot of that is based on stride problems and training unintelligently.

 

As for your earlier example of a guy who was in a car wreck being told to rest, well, yeah, that works for the ordinary guy. But not so much for the guy who has car wrecks every week, and whose effectiveness in his career is largely based on his raw physical strength and physical gifts. Those weekly car wrecks are made a lot easier to handle if the muscles surrounding and supporting the joints are extremely strong and able to handle the violent impacts.

 

Yeah, rest is extremely important. No, giving up all weight training during the season isn't the way to go.