Dr. Trooth Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Don Shula and Mike Holmgren failed as HC/GMs, as well as Parcells with the Jets. It just can't work. So...if Ralph does something stupid like this, it will be a disaster... and especially if it is Shanahan. Shanahan was only succesful when he had a hall of famer at QB... John Elway, for a short time. He was unable to get a conf. championship post Elway with Griese and Jake the Snake, and certainly not with Cutler. He's got much less to work with in Buffalo and he's proven he can't develop a QB into the elite group. Elway was handed to him already an elite. Look folks... I don't know what Ralph is thinking or what direction he's going... and neither does anyone else, especially the media. However, just stepping back and looking at the whole picture, not just one side of the picture or the other, just plugging in a different HC ain't going to make much of a difference. It's no different than dropping a new engine in a car that has a rusted out frame and bad transmission. Ralph has a golden opportunity here... he's canned his coach in mid season, and he must know that Russ Brandon is a complete idiot as a GM. If I were in Ralph's shoes, I'd be hunting for a competent GM and have him signed and in place before the last 4 games. By doing that, the new GM can get a sense of what talent is here, the coaches, the scouting, etc. and whether it is a total rebuilding we're looking at or a retooling. That would lead him to selecting the next HC... and the next HC better be one with at least 6 NFL seasons as an HC, with a winning record.... unless, of course, that GMs name happens to be Bill Polian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I think this is the first post you've written that I actually largely agree with you. the track record is very bad for HC/GMs and that's what the big fish want, and probably the only thing that could get them here. that said I'd be excited if we got Shanahan or Cowher and would just have to hope for the best on the GM side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidas Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Mike Holmgren made the Super Bowl as HC/GM. So did Shanahan. Belichick is doing pretty well this year without Pioli. As a rule I'd agree with you, but that assumes there's a qualified general manager out there which is a big assumption. I'd rather have a Shanahan or Cowher doing both than have someone like Phil Savage in just because we needed another warm body to be our GM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBills Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Mike Holmgren made the Super Bowl as HC/GM. So did Shanahan. Belichick is doing pretty well this year without Pioli. This. Plus Shanahan took Denver to AFC Championship game with Jake Plummer as GM/HC. Parcells took the Jets to AFC Championship game as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Uuh...so between Holmgren, Shannahan, and Bellicheat and their combined 7 Super Bowls in the last 12 years, this model is a failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Uuh...so between Holmgren, Shannahan, and Bellicheat and their combined 7 Super Bowls in the last 12 years, this model is a failure? Yeah, that's a terrible track record alright. And if you believe Adam Schefter, Shanahan doesn't even want total control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fewell733 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Uuh...so between Holmgren, Shannahan, and Bellicheat and their combined 7 Super Bowls in the last 12 years, this model is a failure? Belichick got to 0 superbowls without a GM. Unless you don't count Pioli as a GM. the general trend is that the team is already dominant when the head coach takes over GM duties, at which point the team begins to decline over the next few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonramz Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The eagles have been pretty solid for the past decade having Andy Reid as the HC/GM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plenzmd1 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Belichick got to 0 superbowls without a GM. Unless you don't count Pioli as a GM. the general trend is that the team is already dominant when the head coach takes over GM duties, at which point the team begins to decline over the next few seasons. and to nitpick, i believe Holmgren no longer had GM duties the year they went, but I could be wrong..now, he was playing with most of "his" players, but could concentrate full time on caoching..not worrying about extensions, waiver transactions etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrags Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Shanahan would be GM and in charge of football operations leaving the additional baggage to Russ Brandon (which he does very well) with the marketing, financing. Shanahan is a football guy and I would take him any day of the week over what we have had the last 10 years at GM or HC, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloWings Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Generally, I've seen teams underachieve when the head coach is also the GM....Holmgren in Seattle, even Shanahan in Denver. But think about this - I thought I read somewhere that Jauron had a ton of say in personnel while he was here (which is why we saw plenty of DBs drafted in the early rounds). Clearly, it didn't work in this case, but as others have mentioned, it's not like guys performing both roles have not succeeded at all. I'd more prefer that there's a GM (respected one) who comes in to hire his own people, including the coach, but right now, I'll take a big-name coach that has some clout and knows plenty of people around the league. The football side of this organization is in such disarray, I'll take a change like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Every management model and worked and failed in the past. Jimmy Johnson did a great job with both roles. If you are a coach/gm, you still need quality talent evaluators. As was posted earlier, the coach just has the final say on who is drafted or brought in via free agency. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
auburnbillsbacker Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Generally, I've seen teams underachieve when the head coach is also the GM....Holmgren in Seattle, even Shanahan in Denver. But think about this - I thought I read somewhere that Jauron had a ton of say in personnel while he was here (which is why we saw plenty of DBs drafted in the early rounds). Clearly, it didn't work in this case, but as others have mentioned, it's not like guys performing both roles have not succeeded at all. I'd more prefer that there's a GM (respected one) who comes in to hire his own people, including the coach, but right now, I'll take a big-name coach that has some clout and knows plenty of people around the league. The football side of this organization is in such disarray, I'll take a change like this. Every coach has a say to some extent, but a lot of Jauron's wishes were ignored. During his first year on the job he really wanted Kyle Williams in the 4th round, but Levy loved Ko Simpson, so he was selected. It worked out that Williams lasted until the 5th, so the bills selected him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 and to nitpick, i believe Holmgren no longer had GM duties the year they went, but I could be wrong..now, he was playing with most of "his" players, but could concentrate full time on caoching..not worrying about extensions, waiver transactions etc. Pretty sure that's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kota Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The Bills should just hire a VP of Football Operations and hire Shanahan to be GM/Coach. I read someplace that one of these coaches who was GM got involved in trivial things like making sure there was enough food or toilet paper in the bathrooms. Hire a VP of Football Operations Hire Shanahan for Coach/GM Hire a Office Manager type to make sure that the needs for training camp, Practice, travel arrangements, etc... are taken care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dog14787 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Don Shula and Mike Holmgren failed as HC/GMs, as well as Parcells with the Jets. It just can't work. So...if Ralph does something stupid like this, it will be a disaster... and especially if it is Shanahan. Shanahan was only succesful when he had a hall of famer at QB... John Elway, for a short time. He was unable to get a conf. championship post Elway with Griese and Jake the Snake, and certainly not with Cutler. He's got much less to work with in Buffalo and he's proven he can't develop a QB into the elite group. Elway was handed to him already an elite. Look folks... I don't know what Ralph is thinking or what direction he's going... and neither does anyone else, especially the media. However, just stepping back and looking at the whole picture, not just one side of the picture or the other, just plugging in a different HC ain't going to make much of a difference. It's no different than dropping a new engine in a car that has a rusted out frame and bad transmission. Ralph has a golden opportunity here... he's canned his coach in mid season, and he must know that Russ Brandon is a complete idiot as a GM. If I were in Ralph's shoes, I'd be hunting for a competent GM and have him signed and in place before the last 4 games. By doing that, the new GM can get a sense of what talent is here, the coaches, the scouting, etc. and whether it is a total rebuilding we're looking at or a retooling. That would lead him to selecting the next HC... and the next HC better be one with at least 6 NFL seasons as an HC, with a winning record.... unless, of course, that GMs name happens to be Bill Polian. Mike Shanahan's run game is the stuff that legends are made out of, the guy flat out knows how to make an offense work and with a good defense, a Mike Shanahan football team is almost unstoppable in my opinion. When is the last time we had a Head coach that has won two Championships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Pretty sure that's correct. and to nitpick, i believe Holmgren no longer had GM duties the year they went, but I could be wrong..now, he was playing with most of "his" players, but could concentrate full time on caoching..not worrying about extensions, waiver transactions etc. Belichick got to 0 superbowls without a GM. Unless you don't count Pioli as a GM. the general trend is that the team is already dominant when the head coach takes over GM duties, at which point the team begins to decline over the next few seasons. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max997 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 its easy to point out the failures when it doesnt work but you didnt even do that Holmgren took the Seahawks to the Super Bowl and Parcells took a bad Jets team and turned them into a playoff contender...and what about Belechick? how long has he been doing it in New England? what about Andy Reid in Philly? they have been competitive for how many years making what, 6 conference championship games Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobillsinytown Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 The key to any consistently successful team is the overall program. It takes a great GM to put together a personnel department that can find good players in each year's draft, regardless of where the team is drafting. Then the team has to have people who can evaluate each year's group of free agents and, most importantly, how each one might fit into the team. Then there has to be a solid coaching staff to develop the players. So in a nutshell there has to be a good program in place. This was a term that Polian used constantly when he was rebuilding the Bills in the 90's. He's instituted the same type of program in Indy. And every year, the Colts always seem to turn low round draft picks into quality players, and plug in free agents to compliment what they have. Same with the Steelers, Patriots, etc. I also think the two critical areas on the field are O-Line and defensive front seven. Comparing the Bills of the 90's and the Bills of this decade shows that the 90's team had a great program in place. They routinely turned low round picks into starters and quality players along the O-line and front seven. This decade? It's hard to really name anyone that wouldn't be subject to debate. Program first, then everything follows from that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Cold Bruschi Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 see Belichick, Bill; Reid, Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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