mannc
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Posts posted by mannc
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I really hope your joking and not being serious....
If serious....learn football .
C'mon John . . .
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I don't understand how you've concluded that his injury wasn't taken into consideration.
Also, can you link to a few of these projections you saw with him all the way at 24? I never once saw him on a big board in the 20's, let a lone a few of him in the mid-20's.
Why is half a rookie season not worth a healthy career for you? That's really the most important point in your post.
I don't think it was adequately taken into consideration because immediately after the news of the injury surfaced, Whaley announced that the Bills weren't a bit concerned about it. He was either lying or downplaying the injury to avoid looking like a fool.
I'm not saying half a rookie season is worth more than a healthy career. I'm saying that a shoulder injury that is going to result in a player having surgery and missing half of his rookie year is going to (or should) affect his value heading into the draft, not that he is undraftable, although reportedly some teams had removed Shaq from their draft boards or at least "red-flagged" him, whatever that means. I think the Bills know that, which is why they were so unforthcoming about the injury after the news came out.
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Did the Bills use a first round pick on a player with a medical question mark? They certainly did. So what? The issue that plagued him was an issue that was correctable by surgery. I'm sure Whaley felt that Lawson could get through the season and then the shoulder issue could be addressed. It didn't work out that way. He had the surgery and he will miss a good portion of the season.
When you make a high draft selection, or any selection for that matter, the priority issue shouldn't be how good is he going to be in his rookie year. The more important issue is what is the player's potential and how good is he going to be for you in the long run. Most draft analysts had Lawson pegged in the top ten range. If he turns out to be a good player a little later rather than sooner then it was not only a good selection but it was also smart selection in that we selected a player ranked higher than where he was selected.
Not the analyses (or mocks) I read. Lawson was generally pegged in the 12-24 range, with some even projecting him outside the first round. So I don't believe it's accurate to say Lawson was picked lower than where he was "ranked". The Bills picked him about where he was projected to go, but those pre-draft "projections" to my knowledge did not factor in his injury, which was not widely known or reported prior to the draft (hence the reaction to Shefter's infamous tweet). The real question is, would you have taken him at 19 knowing he would likely miss the first half of his rookie season? I would answer "no", but others obviously disagree. At a minimum, it should have led to a discounting of his value and it does not appear that the Bills took that into consideration.
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Sorry, but you are forgetting: The Ryan defense is not premised on actually rushing or hitting the passer; it is a complex psychological operation against the opposing QB in which the goal is to confuse, annoy and distract. It is very high-level stuff that only the Ryan twins and Bart Scott truly grasp. It would probably take a 15-year vet like Freeney the better part of a season to absorb even the most basic concepts.Dwight Freeney!
- We will obviously be without Shaq Lawson for the first month, and Hughes is the only other effective rusher on our roster. We desperately need another rusher, and I think Freeney can be our guy! He was the Cardinals leading passrusher as a situational guy and he didn't even play the whole season. We can probably pick him up fairly cheap on a one year deal and play a similar role like he did last year.
- So, brining in Freeney and playing him like what the Cardinals did with him last year makes a lot of sense to me. Hopefully the Bills see it the same way and make signing a rusher opposite Hughes a priority!
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Donald was a guy a lot of us liked a lot coming out of Pitt and thought the Bills might take him with the original first round pick they would have used if not for the Watkins trade. That was a loaded draft.The best player in the NFL last season: @RamsNFL DT Aaron Donald. Full Top 101 list here: http://buff.ly/1rCEHGS
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You're right; not the same as Emoulds's inside tip on Shaq and Cordy, but go back and read BigK's post from August 2 last year. He forecast a big drop off on D due to Rex trying to jam a square peg into a round hole and lack of buy-in from the players, using Dareus as an example. He also predicted an improved offense.I dont view this as the same as the Emoulds drops.....who gives specific in the know information....
nobody....NOBODY could have predicted how inflexible Rex Ryans D schemes were actually going to be to last year's defense......I dont care what anyone says....I still feel that he just got lack of buy in and needed some players to leave so that he can bring his own brand of D to the team
FWIW, the guy also correctly predicted the Bills would use their first three draft picks on defense this year, in an effort to salvage Rex's wreck of a defense. (Actually, they used their first four picks on defense, including the 4th they traded to move up for RR.)
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This is a valid point. Another no. 1 is a lot to invest at WR on a run-heavy team. However, despite the fact that he has not missed that many games, Sammy's health worries me, and the offense was absolutely putrid last year when he was out. If he misses more than a couple games this year, the season is pretty much down the tubes. Our WR corps is NOT a strength. And I think Treadwell and Doctson are going to be really good players. (Not sold on Fuller, though.)Remember that year we took Hardy?
NONE of those wide receivers panned out......even the ones taken in the 1st round.
The bills have put a lot of money into their scouting department......maybe they felt that Lawson even with the shoulder risk would end up being a better player the the WR's that were available?
The strength of this draft was in its D....it has been talked about a LOT prior to the draft.
I really think that people who are upset at our WR core are just not taking into effect how this team generates is points
- Watkins is a bonafied 1
- Woods serves as a number 2 just fine
- Teams that have 2 number 1's intend on THROWING to both those players.....this team is gonna run the ball a lot.....A LOT....as evidenced in the deep stable of RB's.....every single one of them can catch as well
- Clay is a bonafied pass catcher as well
- IMO I think people worry because 7-11 departed....who we basically found on scrap heap...the bills were really smart in resining Hankerson....and they have a couple of under the radar WRs as well
Sure....if Watkins goes down we are hurting.....if Cinci loses their star WR THEY are hurting....etc etc.
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Well, there was a major run on WRs that began two picks after Lawson, but Rex needed a defender who could help his limp D from day 1.The Bills WR situation is a disaster waiting to happen. What WR have you ever heard of that got better AFTER they put a screw in his foot? Not to mention Sammy's getting an injury list as long as a CVS receipt.
And we have nothing else at WR. Robert Woods is just not very good. His catch rate is terrible, he's been ranked behind guys like Hogan and Hankerson in DVOA the past few years, and those guys aren't very good either. If Watkins goes down, which unfortunately is a very real possibility, we're basically boned at WR. All you have to do is take away McCoy and Clay and our passing game is done.
This is easily one of the positions I'm the most worried about this year and I'm disappointed we haven't really addressed it.
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Yes, and last year eball was at the front of the line to rip a poster named Big K, who last August predicted EXACTLY was was going to happen--and why--to the Bills' defense in 2015 under Rex. You could look it up.Didn't you also make an ass of yourself in the thread where he informed us that Cordy Glenn had a kidney removed?........a year before that information came out?
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Where to start. OK, here. With the "If he's cleared to play he's cleared to play" thing.
I was refreshing my memory on Torrell Troup last night (you know, one pick ahead of Gronkowski?). In the linked article, Ty Dunne describes how Troup actually fractured a disc in his back during the final preseason game, sat out 3 weeks, then was "medically cleared" and returned to play 6 games - with a fractured disc, doped up on Toradol - until he simply couldn't bend at the waist and was in constant agony the needle couldn't touch. As reported by Dunne, when asked who wanted him to play, Troup responded: "“The position coach, the head coach, the general manager, everybody but the other players.” Troup wound up needing the following season to continue the recovery from his back surgery and was cut in 2013, now retired.
Dunne reports "An interview request with the Bills’ training staff was turned down by the team. But fresh off the golf course, Nix is asked this question. Troup was in pain. Nobody on the Bills stepped in. Why?
“Everybody has different thresholds of pain,” Nix said, “and nobody knows what kind of pain you’re in except you. Medically, he was cleared to play."
Another poster commented that it's probably a misapprehension that the medical staff "clears" potential draftees medically. Rather, they comment on the severity, prognosis, and risk of the injury and then the GM and coaches take that info and digest it somehow and make a call. When the player is on the team already, that's a call that may or may not be in a player's best long term career interest, that may be influenced by the career trajectory of the GM and coach with or without that player. If it's left to the player, he may want to play because there's always someone behind him.
"If he's cleared to play he's cleared to play." Aaron Williams was cleared to play - and reinjured himself, and needed neck surgery. His playing future is up in the air until he gives and receives hits. Torrell Troup was cleared to play. It ended his career, requiring surgery and a year of extreme pain and disability.
I know, I know, anecdotes. But the judgement is looking questionable somewhere along the lines, at times.
I can't read the name "Torrell Troup" without thinking about how the Bills' vaunted medical staff red-flagged Rob Gronkowski, who the Pats wasted a pick on with the next selection.
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Yes. Or they could have selected a healthy defensive player, like Darron Lee, who has a ton of upside. I can't prove it, but I don't believe any other team in the league would have selected Lawson at 19, knowing there was a good chance he would need surgery before the season started. Another example of the Bills outsmarting the rest of the NFL.Yes because the value was certainly there right? Your sure about that right?
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Haven't you been paying attention?? We needed a first round pick who could help Rex's defense from day one.I mentioned this and did some research about other notable Jones injuries that have occured to other high profile athletes. This injury is far more concerning than a shoulder procedure on a rookie. Sammy is the passing game. From the time table they gave us in which he had the screw put in it sounds like it was done before the draft. Makes me wonder why we didn't take a WR earlier who could have some impact.
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Then it's equally "hardly a stretch" to say that the Bills are the second best team in the division. Right?
Agreed. In my original post I was responding to someone who appeared to be mocking a poster who thought the Jets were the second best team in the division.
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Rather than debate what is technically true: do you think the Jets are a better team than the Bills?
I don't know. They are similar teams. If the Jets sign Fitz and he plays relatively well again, they could easily be the second best team in the division, or if Tyrod continues to improve and the defense steps it up, the Bills might be. Either way, it's hardly a stretch to say that the Jets are the second best team in the division. That was my point.
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Rest assured, that's the way the rest of the world (outside TSW) sees it, too. But in here, it's no big deal, just part of the master plan. If he wasn't injured, we never would have had the opportunity to draft such an amazing player. And don't ever forget: No one has a crystal ball.They are either incompetent or lied about the whole thing and knew this surgery would happen now.
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They were one win away from the playoffs last year, and were in contention to the very end. Yes, their QB situation is a bit of a muddle, but they also drafted a healthy player in the first round who I think will help an already good defense a lot. Not a major stretch to say they are the 2d best team in the East.You think the Jets are 2nd best in the AFC East? That's your reality? OK then.
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I was thinking the exact same thing.Ahh! A post title taken from a quote from the biggest loser in Presidential history. The only Vice President ever forced to resign as part of a plea deal to avoid prison time for bribery, tax evasion, fraud. Who would have become President if he had just not been such a criminal himself, since his Presidential partner was forced to resign to avoid criminal prosecution. A man considered the worst Vice President in history. A strange person to feel is quote worthy. But, considering both he and his crime mate also loudly and constantly blamed others for their negativity and not their own ineptitude and actions, it is rather an appropriate choice for the poster's topic.
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it is reported to be a 4-6 month recovery. Four months puts you into September, six months, into November. And that assumes "recovery" means "Ready to play an NFL game" as opposed to ready to start practicing and getting in shape. So he will certainly miss all of training camp and then be asked to step in and learn the amazing and mysterious Ryan defense, which has proven impossible even for many grizzled NFL veterans to learn. Good luck counting on a major contribution this year from Shaq.Since when is September half the season?
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I think the real question here is, "If it had been known that Lawson would need shoulder surgery that would likely cost him at least half his rookie season, would you still have been in favor of the Bills selecting him at 19?" If not, who would you rather they selected?
I certainly would have opposed the choice and would have selected Lee or Doctson instead. I have a feeling Lee is going to be a beast.
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If you are going to call out other posters, at learn basic English.hyperbowl much?
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After reading the Bills' and Whaley's official statements, I am more convinced that there was no sudden occurrence that caused this supposed change of plans. That story appears to be a smokescreen to deflect blame from a "win now" organization that knowingly used its first pick on a guy who probably will be little use this year. And of course there is the question of why they waited three weeks to have the surgery.
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Well then why wasn't the surgery done the day after the draft? We've now wasted 3 weeks, which will put him out that much longer.So, sure, something happened, but I'm not sure it was a real surprise to #Bills. Better to have surgery now than August.
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Guess what? Some of us want to win NOW. Losing our first round pick, who was supposed to shore up our crap defense from "day 1", is a problem. But now at least Rex and his supporters have a new excuse--and the season doesn't even start for four months.Players get hurt all the time. You draft a guy in the first round hoping he comes out and produces year one, but sometimes that doesn't happen due to poor performance or injury. I'd rather it be the latter than the former. A pre-existing shoulder injury is not a huge concern like the situation with Myles Jack.
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Yeah but the screen that 26CornerBlitz posted says he had an occurrence of the condition last week. Wouldn't that mean that the situation changed?
Pardon my skepticism, but that sounds like political cover being propagated by OBD. I can't imagine how he would have had another "occurrence" in non-contact drills, unless it was just incredibly susceptible to injury in the first place.
The Nattering Nabobs of Negativity
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
This board is all about content. People come here to read new and interesting opinions and information about the Bills (and the NFL in general). There are some incredibly well-informed and articulate contributors here; after a while, you get to know who they are and, if you are like me, you pay much closer attention to what they say because they clearly know what they are talking about and they say it in an interesting way. These posters fall on both sides of the realist/optimist divide, but for me, most are in the former camp. It bothers me to see those posters attacked or mocked because I want them to stick around and keep sharing their opinions.
As McBride said upthread, the Bills are a sick organization and have been for a long time. Although it is nice to finally have owners who are willing do what it takes to win, it's not at all clear that the Pegulas know how to do it. (I know--heresy!). The know-nothing coach reports directly to the owner, and there seems to be no clear, coherent plan in place, probably because there are too many hands on the wheel. The signs of a major turnaround are scarce, even though the team now seems to have a few more talented pieces than it did in the darkest days of the ongoing drought. Many of us still see an organization that is behind the curve in the modern NFL. Until that changes, we will continue to view everything this organization says and does with a skeptical eye. So far, we've been right a lot more than we've been wrong.