CincyBillsFan

And how would that be different then almost every Sunday? I get worked up and yell at the TV most games.

Who is saying "Josh is God"? You throw that out there with no evidence to back it up. Allen takes more criticism then any other Bill and he's the best player on the team. Oh wait, is calling Allen the best player on the team the same as calling him a God? Edmunds had what, ONE thread that attacked him, often unfairly. How many does Allen have right now on 2BD attacking him? I agree that Edmunds wasn't the reason we haven't won a SB. But Allen handed the Bills franchise a golden opportunity to win a SB in 2021 with his lights out play. And over the next 5 years he will do it again, probably a couple of more times and maybe this season.

First, this place is tame because the majority of posters are great and the MODS do keep most of the wack jobs away. The good posters can be critical of Allen but they also share interesting insight and some have a sharp sense of humor. Most importantly they know how to structure their criticisms with the proper context. My pet peeve is the relentless negativism and spite directed at Allen whenever he has a bad game. Hell it's often directed at the guy when he has just an average game. It IS over the top. Second, I don't care what other goofy fan bases do on other message boards. 2BD takes up more then enough of my time. Third, I'm not saying people can't be negative Nellie's and over react and direct spiteful attacks at Allen. Go for it if that's what floats your boat. It's a free country. But why do you guys get upset and want to shut those of us up when we react by defending Allen and trying to place some context around his games & performances? Why are you pretending that this ISN'T a two way street?

Your post got me thinking about Kelly who is the best QB to ever play for the Bills. My recollection was that Kelly was a gunslinger who was often reckless with his passing and at times wildly inconsistent. So I cracked open Sal Maiorana's wonderful book "Relentless" to see how Kelly was game to game during the Bills glory years from 1988 - 1993. What I found was that Kelly could be very "Petermanesque" at times. First a couple of notes: * I didn't look at Kelly's fumbles/rushing production because running the football is a huge part of Allen's game and not Kelly's. Sure Allen has lost a lot more fumbles then Kelly but he's also produced gob smacking rushing production that Kelly can't come close to matching. So I focus on the passing stats here. * I get it's a different era of football but by the late 80's offenses were beginning to dominate the game. But I would suggest that while Allen has benefited by the rule changes that is more then cancelled out by the fact that Kelly was surrounded by future HOF and yearly pro bowlers/all pros on the offense. Kelly had a lot more help on offense then Allen does. So let's call it a wash. From 1988 - 1993 Kelly threw 2 or more INT's in 26 regular season games out of a total of 96 regular season games. That is one multi INT game every four games. This was consistent throughout those 6 regular seasons. Here's a sampling of some of Kelly's really bad regular season games which the Bills often lost but also won a surprisingly large amount of: Bad Completion % (less then 50%) and/or low yardage games: * 8/18 for 115 yrds * 10/23 for 144 yrds * 5/15 for 79 yrds * 11/33 * 7/19 for 93 yrds * 17/35 Lots of INT's not so many TD games: * 3 INT/1TD * 3 INT/1 TD * 3 INT/2 TD * 3 INT/0 TD * 4 INT/1 TD (against the 3 - 8 Pats) * 4 INT/1 TD * 3 INT/0 TD Special note was a 1991 game at home against the Bengals in which Kelly threw 3 INT's in the 1st quarter! He then went on to have a monster game to win, I won't spend much time on the playoffs/Super Bowls as we all know Kelly laid a couple of eggs in those games: 1988 - In 2 playoff games Kelly was 33/63 for 407 yards with 4 INT's & 1 TD. This includes a 14/30, 163 yrd with 3 INT/1 TD AFC championship game. If Allen had back to back playoff games like this today we would be screaming for he Bills to draft a new QB in the off season. 1991 - Kelly was 13/25 for 117 yrds & 2 INT's in the AFC championship game at Rich Stadium. The O did not score a TD. The Bills won 10 - 7 on the back of their D. How many times has Allen sucked and the Bills won on the back of their D? That year also saw Kelly's worst Super Bowl performance where he attempted 58 passes and gained only 275 yards and threw 4 INT's against 2 garbage time TD's. Bottom line Kelly should thank his lucky stars that Social Media and an over abundance of National Football Media exports weren't around during those years.

I'm sure Allen is oblivious to the reaction as he should be. My point is that the reaction is EXTREME and OVER THE TOP. Obviously after a game like that fans will be pissed and they should be. But just look at all the "Allen sucks" threads on 2BD and the vitriol being poured out in post after post after post for ONE bad performance in the season opener. Frankly, it's psychotic. No one is asking fans to appreciate Allen's sloppy play on Monday night. But what we're seeing here goes way beyond a lack of appreciation.

Why the hell didn't the Eagles go for 2 there?

Yes the Bills can still have a great season. A first game loss has no relation to how the rest of the season will go. Yes Allen is an elite QB. I would have to see him have 4 or 5 games like Monday night through the first half of the season before having serious doubts. For the record I still believe Joe Burrow is an elite QB after his 1st game which was as bad or worse then Allen's. And I would have been a fool to think that Brady was no longer an elite QB after he threw 4 INT's against he Bills and lost the opening game 31 - 0. He then went on to win a Super Bowl.

Okay so what should the Bills do about it? Agreed. But like you said the criticism is off the the charts and over the top. The last three seasons have earned Allen the benefit of doubt when he has a bad game like Monday night. That's all some of us are saying.

Again, who is saying Allen shouldn't be criticized? I sure as hell am not. But there is a point where the criticism is spiteful and over the top and that point is being seen in dozens of posts on a whole bunch of threads. Hell, even on a thread asking folks to "Stop Blaming Josh Allen" a whole bunch of people feel compelled to throw crap at Allen. Isn't there enough threads to meet that need?

Why are you quoting me? I've repeatedly said Allen played terribly and lost the game. But my point was that it's one freaking game and that the piling on here on 2BD and everywhere else is over the top and way to harsh. So are you saying that the criticism of Allen in 2BD has only been "slightly negative"? Or that what we're seeing on 2BD is just "slight criticism"? Judas Priest you said exactly what I've been saying yet you call me out on it?

They're surprisingly sparse on the details to your question given the intensity of their criticism of Allen. My guess is that they know deep down that Allen is more then likely to rebound big time and and go on a run of great games. The sad thing is if he does some of these posters are going to be disappointed.

I believe you would. At least you're backing up your criticism of Allen with the only logical move if your criticism is valid.

I agree. Now I'm with those on 2BD who believe this is not in the cards because the Bills are not stupid and they highly value Allen. Unless something really strange or dumb happens Allen is here for the vast majority of his career. I'm just challenging those that are trashing Allen and painting the guy in such a bleak light to have the courage of their convictions. If I believed the things that some of these posters are saying then I would advocate trading Allen while his value is off the charts. Because GOING BY WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, Allen is the next Jamison Winston or Carson Wentz.

I wasn't shocked. Pissed off was a better description for me. The fact is that the Bills were on the road playing one of the best D's in football. Allen picked a bad night to have a brain fart. But it was one game and reminded me so much of the Pitt opening game loss in 2021. I will be shocked if after this season is over the Bills miss the playoffs and half of Allen's games look like Monday night. At that point we'll have Jamison Winston as our QB. But I think the exact opposite will happen and Allen will have another 40 plus TD and 4,500 plus total yardage season.

What the hell are you talking about? Am I missing something here? Do you or don't you think the criticism of Allen has been over the top and excessive? Do you or don't you think benching Allen when he screws up for a series is a terrible idea? Sorry I'm not willing to join the lynch Allen crowd. It was one freaking game. If it continues we're screwed and there's nothing we can do about it. But my guess is that we might see, at most 1 or 2 more games like this while most of Allen's games this season will be prime examples of elite QB play. Just like we've seen over the last THREE SEASONS.

Yanking Allen after a bad play sitting hm for a series then putting him in again and then repeating when necessary would pretty much ruin any QB. In fact Belicheck tried exactly that last season and how did that go? And I didn't say it would necessarily ruin Allen as a QB. I said it would ruin him as a QB IN BUFFALO. Doing what you're suggesting would sour Allen on the Bills and rightfully so. At that point why not trade him for all you can get. Let him go somewhere else and win a Super Bowl or two. Thankfully the Bills management & coaches are not insane and would not do something like this.

BTW what's the end game of all the over the top blame being laid on Allen? I get that for the sports media it's clicks, eye balls and controversy. They'll move on in a heart beat and go after the next high profile guy that screws up. But what's the end game for Bills fans in doing this? You don't think Allen isn't fully aware of his shortcomings? How is bashing Allen beyond noting that he had a terrible game accomplish anything? Some Bills "fans" are going after Allen for a lot more then the fact he had a bad game. Is this confirmation of draft night 2018 when some of you said Allen sucked and we blew it by not drafting Rosen? Is this a measure of vindication for your bad take back then? If Allen's struggles Monday night are a sign of a deeper and persistent problem then we're screwed. Welcome to 10 more years of football purgatory. And the way some of you go after Allen you have to believe just that or why post what you do. Okay, fine. I happen to disagree with you but at least have the courage of your convictions. If the things you claim about Allen are true then you should be advocating that the Bills look to trade him. Currently Allen's value is very high, dozens of teams would happily give up their next three years of 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round picks to get him. But all I see is constant carping about a guy whose BODY OF WORK is fantastic placing him as the 2nd best QB to ever wear a Bills uniform. And the best QB to wear a Bills uniform, one Jim Kelly, had games every bit as bad as Allen did Monday night during the SB years. I have no problem with those that criticize Allen after a bad game. But what we're seeing on 2BD is insane.

This is terrible advice. No one is saying Allen shouldn't be criticized for Monday night's performance but the level of criticism is off the carts. As for making him sit for a series, I can't think of a worst thing you could do to a starting QB in the NFL. You want to ruin Allen in Buffalo do exactly as you suggest.

Fine. But there is also keeping things in perspective. The shrill and hysteric response by much of the national media and a lot of Bills fans goes way beyond the simple observation that Allen played poorly and we lost the game as a result.

I disagree. The coaches are forcing Allen to think rather then intuitively react in these situations. Allen is Farve not Brees.

I'll wait until half the season before making a final opinion here. But it will be an interesting experiment to see if Payton can "fix" Wilson.

Given Allen's history and willingness, in fact eagerness to run in similar circumstances in past games convinces me that his failure to take off here was a direct result of the coaches efforts to get him to cut back on his runs. Think about what Sean Payton said to Russel Wilson about running the ball MORE. My guess is if Payton were coach of the Bills he would recognize that the teams best chance to win a Super Bowl was letting Allen be Allen.

I think Kubiak was actually measured in his analysis. He didn't pull any punches but at the same time he didn't ignore the fact that for stretches of this game Allen played very well. And yes Allen made several of his patented elite throws, scrambles and runs. One thing that stood out to me was Allen's decision not to run for the 1st down on the play he launched the deep INT. IMO this is a problem of coaching. In their zeal to cut down on Allen's runs the Bill's brain trust risks compromising one of Allen's great gifts. I want Allen taking that run EVERY time. The coaches need to reinforce that in that situation Allen should tuck the ball and head down the sideline.

I get it and you're right to a point. I don't think any of us are arguing that Allen didn't stink up the place on Monday night. He did. But it was ONE GAME. The national sports media can get back to me after the season and playoffs. And guess what, Allen will probably have another game or two almost as bad as the Jets game. And I find it funny that the national media after one bad game is united in crucifying Allen while they were not nearly as critical of Russell Wilson after he stunk up an entire season. Again there always seems to be an extra dollop of venom directed at Allen from some quarters of the media. As for the comparison to Carson Wentz. Wentz had a spectacular 12 game run. Allen's run, including playoffs, was over the previous 3 full seasons. That's 56 games. Calling Allen "Wentz" is lazy on the part of the media. But then what else do you expect from the Skip Bayless & Nick Wright's of the world.

I don't agree with everything here but a lot of it seems reasonable to me. It is an offensive league and teams run by defensive minded coaches and GM's are falling behind. To a degree Buffalo has been the exception to the rule but it's hard not to think that this is due almost entirely to Allen. Because when Allen is on it doesn't matter who is coaching. But when he's off or just average, which will happen at times, the Bills struggle. I think you see something similar in LA where a defensive minded regime has held the Chargers back. Herbert like Allen is an elite franchise QB. I hate to admit it but the Dolphins have an exceptional offensive minded coach. And their franchise has an offensive minded GM. The difference between Tua with McDaniel and the last guy is night & day. This is why I'm fascinated to see how the season goes for Russell Wilson & the Broncos with Payton as coach. If Wilson returns to form and he had an ok start against the Raiders and Denver has a potent offense then you almost have confirmation that in today's NFL you must have an offensive minded head coach & GM.