CincyBillsFan

I disagree. IMO Allen is better then Watson now and that gap will only widen next season. IMO I also consider Rogers, Brady & Wilson to be clearly better then Watson. And I'm curious as to what you would say is Watson's "proven" track record? He's clearly been a very good QB on a decent team during his first 3 seasons but beyond that what has he actually proven?

As long as it wasn't a distraction sure that would be fine. My point was that the best outcome would be for the Bills tom get the deal done this off season.

But Watson was missing Hopkins last season which was huge. And sorry but IMO the 2019 Texans were a much better team then the 2020 Dolphins. Looking back over last season I can't think of a single Bills win that was "lucky". Maybe the first Pats game? I can think of a Bills loss that was pretty damn unlucky though. If you want an example of a lucky Miami win check out the box score for the Dolphins/Rams game. As I posted elsewhere if I was a Dolphins fan that season ending loss to Buffalo would set off alarm bells. To get blown out with a playoff spot on the line and the Bills resting a whole bunch of players would tell me the Miami roster isn't as good as that 10 - 6 record suggests. The Fish could add Watson and he could play well but with a few different bounces of the ball the Dolphins still go 10 - 6. IMO the only place in the AFC East Watson could go that would worry the hell out of me would be NE. And that ain't happening (I hope).

First I came from this with Watson as a top 10, not a top 5 QB. I know opinions differ on this but that's where I am on it. Second, if the cost of acquiring Watson is to high it definitely could be bad for Miami or the Jets. In the case of Miami IF Tua can develop into a decent QB the Dolphins can use the CAP savings and all those draft choices to upgrade their roster at critical positions. If I was a Dolphins fan that season ending loss to Buffalo, with a playoff spot on the line and the Bill's resting a lot of players, would worry me that the Miami roster is not as good as that 10 - 6 record suggested. In the case of the Jets, you're looking at a couple of years to rebuild. Not sure Watson helps you much running for his life throwing the ball to practice squad level skill players. It's a recipe for Watson becoming the AFC's version of Mathew Stafford - gaudy stats and losing record. IMO the best path forward for the Jets is to take a long term approach. Give Darnold 2 more years under a rookie contract while you build the team around him with all that CAP space & draft choices.

This might actually be the best thing for the Bills. I agree that if Watson ends up in NE it's bad news. But the odds of this happening are close to zero. So realistically we're talking about the Jets & Dolphins: * If he ends up with the Jets it's good news as they'll need to give away the farm and their first born son to get him. When surrounded by crap Watson has already shown us he can win 4 games. Well the crap that is the NY Jets is a much bigger pile then Houston. IMO Watson to the Jets is bad for Watson and very bad for the Jets. The Jets have a lot of holes to fill. * If he ends up at Miami I think you would have some of the same issues as you do with the Jets. Sure Miami is better but how real was their 10 - 6 record? They got a lot of breaks to eek out some of those wins. In that last game the Dolphins looked to me like they need a lot of help. I could see Watson going to Miami, playing well and the Dolphins still only winning 9 or 10 games. They're not going to get multiple special teams and defensive TD's every season.

First off I don't think they will trade Watson. My response was that in the event they had no choice landing CMC and 2 first round picks would be excellent. As for CMC how quickly we forget his 2019 season. He is one of only 2 RB's IMO who can carry a team on his back with the other being Henry. In the modern era of football where super talented QB's throw the ball all over the field and desperate D-coordinators try to take away the intermediate & deep ball by allowing the check down pass, CMC could be a game changing player. CMC has never played with a great QB who was a real threat to push the ball down the field. Yet even with defensive coordinators knowing that CMC was the Panthers only viable offensive threat in 2019 he had over 100 catches WHILE rushing for well over 1,000 yards. If you put CMC in the hands of a truly creative offensive coordinator who is operating a robust passing attack he would be close to unstoppable. This is why if there is even the remotest chance the Bills could get CMC they should do it even if meant not signing another free agent. Like Thurman Thomas was the key ingredient to the Bills glory years CMC, Allen & Diggs would be an unstoppable trio who would put the Bills into multiple Super Bowls.

Bingo. It seems that if we say Allen is better then Watson and that Allen is a top 5 QB while Watson is a top 10 QB that somehow we are trashing Watson. I don't get it. Then when we point out why we think Watson is say the 6th or 7th best QB compared to Allen as the 2nd or 3rd best QB they claim we're trashing Watson! I just don't get the passion that these Bills fans have in defending Watson. Like you point out GoBills808, it's not like we're saying Watson sucks. If the Bills still had Tyrod at QB and Allen was playing for the Jets I would be all over Bean doing whatever it took to get Watson.

And CMC would provide Texan fans with a superstar in exchange for a superstar. It would be a clear sign they aren't tanking. IMO IF the Texans have to trade Watson their best deal is shipping him off to the NFC for CMC and 2 Panther 1st round picks.

We don't need to see anymore from Allen. Those stats that LOVEMESOMEBILLS posted are amazing. If as you suggest we were to wait until halfway through next season Bean would be courting disaster. Let's say Allen tears it up, which is the most likley outcome, all the leverage flows to him. Hell a pissed off Allen might tell Bean to wait until after the season to talk a new contract. The last thing we want to do is follow in the footsteps of Dallas and Zack Prescott. Get the deal done in August. And let's not forget his 2 TD receptions!

As long as the deal is done BEFORE the season starts all is good.

But the contract is almost certainly going to be CAP neutral for the 2021 season. The only way holding off on the contract results in the Bills saving $5 million next season is if Bean asks Allen to take a substantial pay cut. If that happens Allen will be joining Watson in trying to get traded. Given that this contract will likely be structured to be CAP neutral the next two seasons you have to get it done this off season. Allen is only human and if he sees his peers getting big deals over the summer while the Bills don't move on his contract we're playing with fire. But again I have all the confidence in the world that Bean gets it done this summer and Allen, the Bills and the Fans will all be happy with the outcome.

I'm not sure about this either. Even if Allen has plateaued and I believe he hasn't, there's probably going to be a big boost in the CAP after next season. Give some of these owners more money to play with combined with a potentially disgruntled Allen watching Mayfield & Jackson get big time extensions and we might have a problem. I'm very confident that Bean & the Bills will extend Allen's contract this year locking him up for the foreseeable future. I think the contract will be very CAP friendly this coming season and the Bills will get a real hometown discount.

What I saw from Allen in his first playoff game was a young QB that played very well for most of the game but struggled mightily for most of the 4th quarter. But Allen was able to get it together at the end to force the game into OT and he was one missed block from winning the game in OT. Calling out the "hero ball" was a cheap shot IMO. Watson has not been a star in this league from his first season. He showed flashes of greatness and he clearly showed that he could be a franchise QB but IMO he didn't match the early performances of Mahomes and Marino. And the fact that we disagree on this point doesn't make either one of us any more or less knowledgeable about football. It's nothing more then a difference of opinion. A bad playoff game in his second season is in indication to me that Watson was not a superstar his first two years. He as still growing into a top notch QB. And of course the same could be said about Allen. I have no trouble ranking Brady in the top 5 QB's. He just led his team to a Super Bowl championship. And for someone who self proclaims themselves a football expert are you seriously comparing how Allen did versus KC to how Brady did versus KC? You do now that transitive properties do not apply to football.

Fair enough on Allen & Watson. We're not very far apart. For me I consider BOTH who the player played for and how well they play. I will always have more passion talking about Andre Reed or Eric Moulds then I ever will about Jerry Rice. Tom Brady is the greatest QB to ever play the game but I'll never get very excited about that fact given the logo that was on his helmet for so many years. But hey, it's a big diverse world out there and we're all entitled to our own version of fandom.

I compared their first playoff game because you pointed out how "bad" Allen did in his. I think you called it "hero ball". Meanwhile you're telling us that Watson came out of the NFL womb a super star. Well he wasn't a super star in his first playoff game in his 2nd season was he? And I love your passion in defending Watson on a Bills Message Board. I don't get it but hey the passion is impressive. Oh and for the record after this last season I had Allen as my #3 QB and Watson as my #7. So where would you put them? I get you & others disagree with me here but are we really that far apart?

Are you going to tell me that the talent Watson had around him his first couple of years wasn't much better then what Herbert & Burrow had? In my rankings I have Watson at #7 and Allen at #3 - where do you have them? And are we so different that you get pissed off about it? Man it's odd that on a Bills message board you show more passion for Watson then you do for almost any Bills player.

Who is pooping on Watson? Is it because some of us have him as the 6th or 7th best QB in the NFL? That sounds more like constipation then pooping. And given that the title of this thread is Watson vs Allen how the hell are we supposed to debate the point without actually comparing the stats and play of the two QB's? And again for the record, people aren't trashing Watson in saying hat Allen is the better QB now. We agree that Watson is a great QB. We agree that Watson is a top 10 QB. How is this in any way crapping on Watson? Our point is that while Watson is a top 10 QB Allen is now a top 5 QB. And that we would not trade Allen for Watson straight up. Now I would trade Baker Mayfield for Watson straight up but that isn't the title of this thread.

Here are the stats for Allen & Watson in their fist playoff games. For both QB's their first payoff game was in their 2nd NFL season. Allen: Lost to the Texans in OT 22 - 19 Watson: Lost to the Colts 21 - 7. The score was 21 - 0 until 11 minutes left in the 4th quarter. Allen was 24/46 for 264 yards no TD's & no INT's; had 9 caries for 92 yards with 1 lost fumble; caught 1 pass for 16 yard TD; QB rating = 69.5 Total yards = 372; Total TD's = 1; Total TO's = 1 Watson was 29/49 for 235 yards 1 TD & 1 INT; had 8 - 76 yards; QB rating = 69.7 Total yards = 311; Total TD's = 1; Total TO's = 1 Allen played just as well in his first playoff game as Watson did in his. And Watson did NOT come out of the NFL womb "dominating". Mahomes came out of the NFL womb dominating. So did Burrow & Herbert who both got off to better starts then Watson did and they did it with inferior offensive talent.

On a dedicated Bills message board? I don't expect objectivity when I visit other NFL message boards. Now that doesn't mean I'm a blind partisan of the Bills and I don't view everything Bills related through rose colored glasses. The last 25 years has hardened my football soul quite a bit and I am more then capable of being critical of the Bills. But when it comes to talking about Allen, a guy who is likely to match or even exceed Jim Kelly as the greatest QB in Bills history, I'm going to be an advocate. Particularly on a Bills message board.

I am 100% certain that if next year the Bills go 4 - 12 yet Allen has the most yards & TD passes of his career all sorts of Bills fans on 2BD would be slicing and dicing the stats to show that Allen's numbers were misleading and he didn't really have a good year. The fact remains that stats in garbage time can boost a QB's numbers quite a bit. I believe Matt Stafford has been a beneficiary of this. To suggest that Watson has also benefited from this last season is not unreasonable. Now I'm not blaming Watson for the Texans going 4 - 12. He played well and was not the cause of their bad record I am saying that his numbers were inflated as a result of that bad record. And IMO when it counted with the games on the line Allen was a better QB then Watson. I do wonder whether on an Allen versus Watson thread on a Houston message board there would be as many Texan fans extolling the greatness of Allen as there are Bills fans praising Watson.

That was my thinking to. Watson is better today but not by much and if Burrow & Herbert improve as much as I think they will next year they'll be nipping at Watson's heels and costing their teams a hell of a lot less money. As an aside I fully expect Allen to make another jump next year. He has improved every year since the Senior Bowl so I feel safe in assuming he has at least one more jump left in him. Right now the odds are better that Allen will hit his highest upside then he will stall out where he is now. Last season was not a one year wonder but the continued climb of a young QB from high school to his 3rd year in the NFL. It's really quite extraordinary when you think about the progress Allen has made over that time.

Don't sleep on Joe Burrow. In fact given how cheap they are for the next two to three years I would likely take Herbert or Burrow before I would take Watson. That got me thinking what I would do if I owned a franchise and could pick my QB. First tier = Mahomes or Allen If I couldn't have one of those two: Second Tier = Burrow or Herbert.

I see a lot of question marks here but is there actually a question here?

You listed stats showing that Watson was pushing the ball down the field not that prevent defenses don't enable QB's to do that. The prevent is designed to stop the big over the top plays but often leaves the 10 - 20 yard stuff open. Completing 6 of 7 passes for 75 yards on your way to a late TD will give you a pretty decent yards per attempt. And how is saying Watson is a top 10 QB not being objective? It's not like I'm saying he sucks. I just happen to think that right now Allen is top 5 and Watson is top 10. IMO my top 5 would be: Rogers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady and Wilson. My next 7 would be: Jackson, Watson, Prescott, Herbert, Burrough, Stafford & Mayfield

We'll have to agree to disagree on the impact of Watson facing a lot more prevent coverage contributing to his stats. One thing I've noticed is that while in THEORY prevent defensive schemes force teams to check down their throws in practice you see a lot of 10 - 20 yard strikes. As for Bills fans having a chip on our shoulders with regards to Allen you're damn right we do. And is it a surprise? I've been following the NFL closely for half a century and I can't recall a QB coming into the league getting beat up on as much as Allen has. At times it was brutal and the virulence of it was unwarranted. The question of this thread is who do we think is the better QB and it came from suggestions on other threads that some fans would be willing to trade Allen for Watson straight up. Given this why should those of us who believe Allen is the better QB be gushing over Watson? I think we've been pretty clear we consider Watson a top 10 QB. We've also been clear that we wouldn't trade Allen for Watson and that Allen is the better QB.