Shaw66

I think you're ignoring a lot of factors. First, sometimes teams miss on a draft pick. Yes, one would expect that a first round choice would have won a starting spot by the end of his rookie season, and Elam didn't do that. The Bills may have made a mistake in an evaluation of his talent. It happens to teams all the time. The objective is to minimize the bad choices. I'm not saying Elam's a bust - I think he will be fine. If I had to guess, I'd say he'll be the full-time starter before this season ends, but we'll have to see. Second, when your team is good, it's harder for rookies to win starting time Why? Because there's better talent on the team, so the competition to start is tougher. Dane Jackson and Benford wouldn't appear to be tough competition on paper, but obviously they're better than their resumes. Third, just like you can miss on early round picks, you can score on later round picks. That seems to be the case for Benford. Fourth, when your team is good, you draft later, and the sure-fire starter label that goes with first round picks really only applies to the picks in the top half of the round. As you go down through the first round, you begin to find more guys who are not instant starters. That's been true with the Bills first round picks since they got good. Rousseau started but didn't really light it up. Those guys are not that much different from high second round guys, and those guys often are not instant starters. Fifth, trading up is something Beane has done often. Everyone is jumping for joy that he did it for Kincaid, so I wouldn't be too quick to criticize the technique. He also did it for Josh Allen, and that seems to have worked out okay. As for the linebackers, I'll repeat what I said yesterday, in this thread or another. Have you ever known Beane NOT to go after talent when he thinks he has a hole in the lineup? He's clearly gone after edge rushers, receivers, running backs, offensive linemen, corners. If the Bills think they have a hole, Beane fills it. What does that have to do with the middle linebacker position: The Bills don't think they have a hole there. If McDermott wasn't satisfied with Spector, Bernard, Dodson, and Klein, they would have gotten a veteran free agent, or they would have made LB a priority in the draft. They didn't do that, and that tells me that they aren't worried about linebacker.

I don't think they're infallible. But I do think that they have 100, maybe 1,000 times more information than any one of us. McDermott's been doing this for 20 years, every day of every year. He has a DB coach and several assistants who are watching these guys in practice, in games, and rewatching all of it on film. They also have an overall plan for the defense that they don't share with any of us. So, yes, I do think it's much, much more likely that they, collectively, understand which player is best able to do their job. I remember Kyle Williams just laughing off the idea that some guys at PFF could watch film and evaluate his performance. He said it was ridiculous. He said they didn't have the experience, and they didn't even know what his job was on each play.

No, I'm not doing that, but I don't mind if you think so. It's no big deal.

It's not a random anomaly. There's millions of dollars at stake. The networks don't do random. Your first paragraph explains it. There are stories about teams that were of interest to the fans during the offseason. Other than Hamlin, those stories were not about the Bills. The networks know which teams were interesting to the fans, so those are the teams they show. During the season it's different. There the networks fight to get the best teams and the best games. The networks know the Bills should be competing for the title, so they want prime time games with the Bills.

Absolutely. I agree with whoever that coach was who said what he said. To be an elite QB, you must be elite at moving the ball consistently with your arm. Allen was not that last season. The elite QBs - Brady, Peyton, Rodgers, don't have to run to be elite. Rodgers was an effective, opportunistic scrambler, but he wasn't a runner. But they all were great game managers and highly accurate throwers. They had high completion percentages, in part because of accuracy, but in part because they knew the way to win was to get a completion, any completion, on every play. The completion is more important than the yards gained. Allen didn't do that last season. Now, we all can talk about the receivers and the oline, but Brady certainly did not consistently have great receivers, and Rodgers didn't either. And they didn't have consistently great olines, either. What they did do was take the easy completion that the defense gave them, play after play. They made really easy throws a lot of the time. Josh has to learn to do that, play after play. It's great that he's one of the most talented throwers ever, but really that's just a plus, just like his running is. At the core of his job is getting completions. His completion percentage has to go up. Dumb he may be, but he was absolutely right.

It's really simple, and people don't want to accept it. McDermott (and lots of other coaches) say it all the time. The best player plays. It's a competition, in practice, in games, all the time. The current winner of the competition plays. You aren't the winner in the competition because you're a close second but have more potential. Potential doesn't make you better. The guy with potential has every day in practice to show he's better. If he's a close second, like Elam was last season, he gets playing time in games. He gets graded. If his grades are better than the others, he gets more playing time. If they aren't, he doesn't. How much playing time did Ford get because he had more potential? Very little. Why? Because other players were better, and the Bills wanted the best players on the field. Ford kept getting tryouts for the first time, a little playing time here and there, and he never did it. Somehow people think it should be different for Elam. All it really means is that your evaluation of Elam is different from McDermott's. McDermott desperately wants to win, and he has about 100 times more information about Elam than you do. I think if McDermott thought Elam was the best option, he'd put him on the field more.

How do I know? Really? How do I know? How many teams have you been on where the coach played the second best player at some position over the best player at the position? I've been on a lot of teams, and I can't recall the coach EVER playing the second best player. Coaches want to win. Coaches also want the respect of the players; the players know who the best players on the team are, and they lose respect for the coach when the coach doesn't play them. It's true about all teams I've known. Coaches quit when the owner makes them play players who aren't the best at their positions. So, it's simple: The Bills grade their players in detail. They play the best players. Elam is not a regular starter. It follows that Elam doesn't have the best grades at the position. Compare Elam to Cook. Cook didn't play a lot early in the season. Why? Same reason as Elam: He didn't grade out as being good enough to play. He played more as the season progressed. Why? Because he kept working and his grades improved, in practice and in games. Better grades, more playing time. Eventually, his grades got so good that he passed Motor, and the Bills finally concluded they could let Motor go. Cook passed Singletary. Elam hasn't passed Jackson and Benford. It's that simple.

I think should have been precise; thee regular season is different from the preseason. The preseason TV schedule is driven by what the fans think - the fans seem to think the Bills are done, so the networks don't want to show the Bills. I think the regular season is driven more by common sense - the networks know who the good teams are, and the NFL knows who the good teams are, so the Bills got a lot of prime-time slots. I look at the ESPN.com NFL home page most days, and it amazes me how few of the stories are about the Bills. It's because the fans aren't interested in the Bills this off season, so ESPN knows not to cover them much. That will change once the season starts, because I think the Bills will be a force to be reckoned with. When the Bills are dominant in the league, the fans will take notice again. It's what I've always said - the Bills have to earn their coverage. The Giants, the Jets, the Cowboys, they don't have to do anything and they're on the front pages.

It's consistent with how the media always cover the Bills. Until you're viewed by the general public as legitimately good, the Bills don't get covered. The general public believed the Bills were good for exactly one year: from 13 seconds to the loss to the Bengals. Now, the general public has forgotten about the Bills again. The Bills have to win something to become relevant to the general public; until then, the networks aren't interested. It's life in a small market.

That's you talking. That's not McDermott. On this team, as on every other team, your job is to do your job, the whole job, not just part of the job. The players get graded on how well they do the whole job. Elam hasn't played because he doesn't do the whole job as well as the other guys. Simple as that. Even if covering the receiver is the most important part of the job, even if grading is weighted to reflect that, which it probably is, Elam is not grading out better than the other guys. That's why he isn't playing. That's why Epenesa isn't a starter, no matter how good he may have been in college. That's why Cody Ford didn't start. That's why Cook didn't get significant snaps the first half of the last season. Somehow, because you have some love affair going with Elam, you think Elam should start even though he isn't the best at the position. Have you ever known Beane to leave a position of need ignored? Ever? He needed guards this year, and he got them. He need corners last year, and he got them. He need edge rushers starting about three years ago, and he got them, in spades. Beane ALWAYS fills needs. So you know what your list of drafted linebackers, and the list of free agent linebackers signed, means? It means that Beane and McDermott do not think that MLB is a position of need, that they think they have the guys they need to play the position. You actually seem to believe that all the linebackers, other than Milano, suck, and that somehow McDermott and Beane haven't noticed? Don't you see how unrealistic that is? Their linebackers DON'T suck, or they would have gone out and gotten someone.

No, no, no. The Bills are very public about the extent to which they grade people. Every player is graded every day. How they play on the field is graded in minute detail. McDermott has been very clear, over and over, that the guy who plays the best plays, regardless of his draft position. And no, he does NOT play guys in real games so that they can develop. Practice is for developing, games are for winning. So, yes, it may be less apparent to you, but that's just because you're not paying attention. The guy who does the job best plays, period. That's the way it works on almost every team, from pee wees up to the NFL.

Sort of related. But it doesn't change the point. CB2, like every other position, has certain responsibilities. The players are taught what they're supposed to do under various play calls and circumstances. They get graded on how well they execute the job. Elam didn't start because he didn't execute as well as the others in games. Yes, maybe he was best at aspects of man coverage, but the others were better at other aspects of the job. It's very simple.

This is not in nearly large enough font. It needs to be all caps, bold, and big.

Yes. And they get graded against what they were supposed to do. It is a certainty that Elams grades were lower; that's why he didn't play more. Why would anyone have a problem with that?

Don't know if I'd ever seen Phillips interviewed before. This man is so cool. Nothing bothers him. And frank. Says Floyd and Ford are special. Says that's what you need to have a great defense, you need to be loaded. They asked about Rousseau, and he said he's now a grown man. Compared him to Mario Williams. Said he's big and fast. Phillips is clearly excited to be on the field with these guys. Also talks about the difference between Frazier and McD. McD has an edge, which I'd hope would be the difference. He also said McD is more colorful, and I think that meant that his words are more direct. Love it.

Nice story and perfect photo, capturing the moment, even without Josh in the picture. Backup offensive lineman, doing his job in a good-natured way, young girl thrilled to be up close with any of the players, happy to get an autograph, even though she probably doesn't know who 72 is. Then Josh runs by, gives the high five, and the girl goes nuts. Doyle already knows he's NFL chopped liver and didn't need the moment to remind him, but he gets it, waiting patiently for the girl to come back to earth to get her cap back. When she takes the cap to school, she'll show her friends the autograph and tell everyone that while she was getting it, Josh Allen high fived her. If you're a good dad, you'll be sure she knows Doyle's name and understands that he's an important part of the story, too. Great photo. A keeper. Here we go! Love it!

Well, I never once looked at this thread during its short happy life, but I happened to look at it when Warcoded brought it back. Actually, I was disappointed with the Robin Williams clip; I was hoping actually to hear from people who joined this parade with Josh. They must have a really interesting perspective on the Bills and all of us junkies who've been living this life for a few decades. I often tell this story here, and I won't repeat all of it here, but I saw the Bills in Fenway Park in 1967. There was on section in the stadium that was full of Bills fans, and they were really rowdy. So, I left my seat and walked over to where the Bills fans were. The reason they were so rowdy was that they got on the train in Buffalo at midnight, drank all the way to Boston, and then went directly to the game. Sometimes on the Buffalo Bills message board I would think we're all still on that train (sort of like a Bills-fan Snowpiercer), drunk beyond belief, yelling at each other. Sometimes lately here it's gotten a little like that, but never quite so bad. I think fan forums have a personality, and the personality keeps changing over time, as the people change, as their points of view change, as the fortunes of the team change. It's unreasonable to expect it to be the same every week, let alone every year. This off season was particularly bad, because I agree Bills fans are better losers than winners. Bills fans were more realistic about the players on the team when the team was losing. Nobody's point of view here was the Bills just need one more player and Tyrod will take us to the Super Bowl. People understood who Tyrod was. There are plenty of people here who have proclaimed Josh to be a god, and they are amazingly angry that Beane and McDermott have disrespected Josh by not acquiring 25 of the 50 best players in the league to assist him as he climbs Mr. Olympus. That are others who think Beane and McDermott are gods too, and they can't understand how anyone could complain about anything they do. There are still others who think Beane and McDermott are hacks and should be put on their own train somewhere. I've been waiting for training camp to start so that all of that off-season noise would stop, but surprisingly it hasn't. Threads about a day in training camp turn into long-winded debates about why Beane didn't acquire a better backup right tackle. Really? Can't we just watch the team as it begins to get ready for the season, watch the progress of the new guys, be amazed, again, at some of the balls Josh throws and some of the catches Stefon makes, and be excited about what's to come? I guess not. Anyway, it'll change, so I don't worry too much about it, especially because the worst days hear are not close to even average days on the BBMB. It's 25 years and counting for this forum, and if we have to put up with some whining once in a while, so be it.

All of the above. The GM brings in talent to compete for roster spots, including PS spots. They drafted Torrence with an expectation that he'd start, but the real bottom line is that he was brought in to compete. If Shell wins the starting job outright, so be it. If he's the backup to Brown, so be it. If he's the second back up tackle behind Quess, so be it. I don't think they expected one outcome or another - they just brought in talent to compete.

I agree. Quess is a journeyman right tackle. You know what you're getting. By comparison, Brown is an adventure. He'll make some plays for you, but then he'll disappoint. Quess's consistency is worth something.

My recollection is that what Beane said, in so many words, they'd like him to be an answer in the middle, and they might look at him a bit there, but that primarily he'd start outside and learn the game. If he'd turned out to be some kind of savant in OTAs, we might be seeing him in the middle now, but that isn't what was expected. What I understood Beane to be saying was that the guy could be a factor in the middle at some time, but probably not right away. That is exactly what we're seeing.

Yes, if this is the latest in endless problems with his back, it's much better to start working his replacement into the first unit now. Much better.

Got you. Thanks for the explanation. I've been in plenty of those discussions. It's funny for all of us to have these discussions on the fly as we're seeing info from the early days of training camp. Fact is, it seems that if we'd just waited until the end of practice today, we'd all be saying it looks like Elam is starting to win the job. Reality is, none of us knows.

He gets reps every day in training camp. Every day. First team reps and second team reps. It's exactly the same as JV football in high school, varsity, college. The best players get the first team reps, because the coach wants the first team to play together. Coaches essentially never play the second best guy to give him reps. That would be like saying sit Davis and give Shorter the first team reps. Coaches don't do that. When Shorter shows he may be better than another guy, he'll start sharing reps with that guy. That is exactly where Elam is. You don't play because you have potential. You play when you do your job better than the guy ahead of you.

How hard is this to understand? They aren't sitting him to make a point. CB2 is a job, and someone is doing the job better than Elam. And he isn't sitting. He's playing, but just not full time.

That's very much what I see. Frankly, I think it also carries over from rookie camp and OTAs. The Bills knew before they got to St. John Fisher that Torrence would get these early first-team reps. Everyone is being evaluated every day in every imaginable way. It's also why we see rookies working their way into playing time as the season progresses. Cook was a good example. I, along with a lot of people, was disappointed that he wasn't in the regular rotation from day 1. I was disappointed because I wanted to see him, but also because I knew it meant that he wasn't yet doing some things the staff needed to see before they were willing to give him significant snaps. As the season progressed he got over the hump, earned some reps, and by the end of the season he was looking like the back the Bills hoped they were getting. Elam's been even slower; I hope he makes it. I'm happy to see Torrence getting these early reps, because it is/was a position of great need.