Shaw66

I'm ashamed that I clicked on this thread. Mel Kiper's opinion is based on what, exactly? I give the guy credit for having marketed himself so successfully.

If I recall correctly, in his predraft press conference Beane said his scouts will work over the weekend, submit some stuff on Monday, then go home. As others have said, apparently it's not unusual.

I agree there were a lot of clear statements made by various parties, but I wouldn't call it a dialog. The deal didn't happen for one or more of four reasons: 1. Bills and Steelers couldn't agree on trade terms. 2. Bills and AB couldn't agree on money 3. AB didn't want to come to Buffalo 4. Bills became concerned over character issues. Now, I know AB has said it wasn't that he wouldn't come to Buffalo, but that is not at all the original message we were hearing from him. It seams it isn't 1., because it sure seemed like the deal had gotten past the trade negotiations. But maybe the Raiders came back with a better offer, and the Bills wouldn't match it. But I don't think there's any clarity on how those issues combined to reach the end point where the Bills pulled the plug. Not that it matters all that much. They couldn't make a deal. I don't think that's anything we can ascribe to Beane doing a good job and doing a bad job unless and until we have those kinds of details.

As a wise man said to me yesterday, we've had years of exciting drafts and boring seasons. Wouldn't it be nice to turn that around? If a boring draft is the price of a successful season, I'm prepared to be bored. By the way, I agree. It IS boring.

Beane has been extraordinarily clear that in the first couple of rounds the teams needs will have NOTHING to do with his pick. He doesn't care if the pick falls to the offense or the defense. He is trying to improve the total talent on the team, and you do that by taking the BPA. Having said that, I agree with you that Beane is likely to go offense in the first round, but not for the reason you give. What he has said is that when there's a lot of talent clustered in one position group, lile d line, he is inclined to go away from that group on the assumption that there's so much talent there that he will be able to get good quality at that position group in a later round. So I'd think if he has two guys rated more nor less evenly, he would go with the offensive guy, because defense is deep in the draft.

I really don't think we've heard the full story about how that deal died. Who pulled the plug is different from who made deal ubdoable. I'm not arguing with your take on it. Just saying that I don't think any of us knows the whole story. Beane seemed to comment on it with carefully chosen words.

I don't agree. With this at all. First, McCoy is every bit as much an impact player as any of the five you named. Second, it's a whole new game thus year with the offensive line. No one knows how much better the line will be, but it could be a lot better. If it is, everything on offense changes. If the line is significantly better and if Allen improves, the skill players WILL suffice. Brown and Beasley are solid players and will get the Bills through the season just fine. If the line isn't better or if Allen doesn't improve adding a star receiver won't help. The Bills can either offense or defense in the draft. And if they go offense, it might be a lineman.

I'm having trouble finding interesting things to talk about, so I'm creating my own. This thread actually turned out to be pretty interesting.

Thanks. I didn't know that. Then the notion of a day 2 trade makes more sense. Hmmm. That's an interesting prospect.

Pretty sure I'll be at Jets and at Browns. At Giants is tempting.

That's one of the funniest/scariest thinks I've seen in weeks!!! If they do that, it means they REALLY believe in the process! Well put. I'll meditate tonight to the mantra "boring is good." I think you're right. Maybe nothing until the draft starts, but I think once it starts, Beane has a hard time sitting still.

Actually, I agree with this. It's just boring sitting around with nothing happening, waiting for the draft to start. I think we've seen Beane's appetite in free agency. He'll pay what he did for Morse, and he'll pay what he did for Star, but he's going to be very cautious about writing $20 million checks. AB, he told us, yeah, maybe, but if you aren't a certifiably special talent like AB, he's not too interested. After all, what he means by building through the draft is that he can afford to keep the team well enough stocked with talent by having a lot of players on their first contracts and by spending his money on the cream of the draft crops as they reach free agency. He gets two benefits out of that. One is that he stays out of cap hell. Second, he gets the benefit of the really good players for ten years instead of just five. Clowney's a perfect example. If he fits the Bills' system and process, he's a star for the next five years. Draft the best edge rusher coming out this year (and you're taking him because you've already determined that he fits the system and process), and you've got a star for ten years. Ten is better than five. Still, I'm bored.

I agree, but I think those talks have to happen before the draft starts. If I'm the Seahawks and I think the Bills' second isn't enough but no one else is offering much better and I let the Bills talk to Clark, the Bills may be willing to offer a lot (in part because they think they're making out by getting away with a low-ball draft pick). So Bills offer a lot and Clark says he's take it. This all happens before the draft, but the Bills won't commit until after they pick at 9. Well, that kills the pre-draft market for the Seahawks, because some team that would offer a first for Clark would have to be willing to match, at least, the Bills' offer. But the Bills offer was high BECAUSE they weren't offering a high pick . So I don't see how the mechanics would work to put together that kind of a deal before the draft, and I don't think there's enough time to put it together after the Bills pick at 9. By the way, I've convinced myself that if there IS a deal for one of them, I want Clark. He just seems more likely to settle into the process and commit to it. I haven't seen much of him at all, but he strikes as sort of a souped up version of Hughes, and Hughes has turned into a very effective DE.

I guess I'm missing the point. What's wrong with the system as it is? I don't see the players union objecting to it, because the franchise tag is irrelevant to 99% of the players in the league. Getting rid of the tag just benefits a few guys who are making a lot of money already. And being tagged doesn't hurt them all that much. All they have to do is show up and play, and they get paid a top-five salary, so arguably they're getting paid what they're worth. And if they get tagged a second or third year, they're getting paid more than the highest paid guys in the league. Sure, they aren't getting the big guaranteed payday they'd get if they were free, but they're getting paid a lot. It does kind of suck that you actually have to sit out a year to force your team to let you go, like Bell did. Maybe you could change the tag to say that if a team tags a player, it's a TWO-YEAR tag, first year at the average of the top five at the position, then 20% over the top five in the succeeding year AND both years are guaranteed. So if you get tagged, you know you're getting major dollars (QB would be getting $50 million, guaranteed). That would sweeten it for the players and make it a slightly bigger risk for the owners. I agree with those who don't like the way the NBA works. The owners and the fans should be somewhat secure from their best play holding them hostage. I don't want to spend five years turning Josh Allen into the best QB in football and then just let him walk. The Patriots keep Brady happy. The Pack kept Rodgers happy. Seattle kept Wilson happy. Cousins is the only guy who's left for greener pastures, and the Redskins probably wish they'd let him go a year earlier. I'm not seeing the problem here.

That's a tough deal to make. Really can't do either trade unless you know you can sign the guy to a long-term deal, but I don't think they can talk to the agent without the other team's permission. To get the permission, you'd need to have a trade pretty much agreed to. I don't see Houston or Seattle giving permission for the Bills to talk with the agent, because if the Bills are willing to give the guy a big contract, it hampers Houston and Seattle's ability to talk trades with anyone else for the next week. Maybe there's more behind the scenes talking going on than is permitted, but I get the sense that everyone is pretty good about following those rules. It would be risky for the Bills to give up a second round pick without knowing they can sign the guy long term.

Is Beane sick or something? We need some entertainment here. There's gotta be a Cordy Glenn on the roster he can package with some picks to give himself more to work with. Come on. Time's awastin.

That's funny. There's a part of me that doesn't like his intensity, which leads to him acting out from time to time. At the same time, his intensity is what makes who he is. Not a perfect comparison, but Tiger and Richie Incognito have a bit of the same problem. And, if you believe the reports, McDermott and Beane have it, too. There's a couple of tightly wired guys. I love the story about Beane, who was such a student of basketball that they let him coach the JV team when he was a senior in high school. In the first two minutes of his first game, he got two technicals and was tossed! Gotta love a guy who wants it that bad. Tiger has that.

Thanks. That's a really nice piece. I will tell you, however, that I don't trust all thos feel good stuff. Tiger is great press, so the press always writes nice stuff about him. His horrible behavior on the course was well known to the press but never reported. I would like nothing better than for Tiger to be a new man, because I like my heroes to be good guys. The press, because it's in their interest, are going to tell us he's a new man. Whether he is remains to be seen. In the meantime, what he did is what makes us love watching sports.

We'll see how much home turf matters in the upcoming majors. My expectation is that he will compete seriously in at least some of them. The guy is a great, great golfer, and nothing he does amazes me, including his most recent win.

Thanks for the interesting comments. For the record, I wasn't at all trying to minimize his achievement. It was truly remarkable.

You make a good point about Mack, and given McD's determination to get pressure with the front four, an outstanding edge rusher may be viewed by McBeane as essential to the long-term plan. However, as I've often said, I think McD is a closet Belichick disciple, and Belichick is willing to scheme with his front seven and to get pressure not so much with overwhelming talent in the front four as with the uncertainty of which four or five or six are coming. McD's defense is definitely about scheme, and if he would come on here and talk to us, I would guess that he would say that pressure up the middle is more important than edge pressure. I'd guess that he's thinking if he has a stud DT, he can make the rest work. If he doesn't have a stud tackle, he'll force the QB to deal with the threat of Edmunds shooting an inside gap. All just suspicions on my part.

Jobot and Our Year - It's a very interesting discussion you've been having. It's a question that's torn at me a lot as we all have watched the Bills rebuild and rebuild and rebuild. My personal bias is against the big free agent move. I think that players are rarely worth teams pay for them, and players rarely have the impact that fans imagined they would. I'll admit, however, that there are exceptions. Gilmore, for example, but Belichick is, as always, a special case. The shut down corner is a critical part of Belichick's defense, because Beleichick knows that if he can neutralize the opponent's best receiver, his collection really well-trained good but not great football players can outplay the opponent 10 on 10. So when Belichick writes the big check, it's a very well calculated move. It isn't just that the guy is an impact player; it's because the guy is close to essential to the overall scheme. I'd guess that Belichick looks at Clowney and thinks "well, he'd be nice to have, but that position doesn't drive my defensive philosophy, so I'm not paying big bucks for him." Contrast that decision with a Mario Williams, who was among the very best at his position (arguably a guy whose talent level, compared to others at his position, was similar to Gilmore's at his position) and was, even in Buffalo, something of an impact player. He nevertheless was just a random piece who improved the total talent on the team, but he wasn't the key piece to a scheme that could win only with a player of his caliber at his position. We have a pretty good idea of what Beane thinks: He's filling holes in free agency and building through the draft EXCEPT that when an extraordinary becomes available he will take a long hard look at the guy. He said so after his run at Antonio Brown. Pardon my ignorance about Clark. I really don't know him, but I gather he's ferocious on the edge. And I think I read here somewhere that he's been franchised but the Hawks might deal him, or his contract's coming up or whatever. IF Beane has an interest in doing a deal for an edge rusher, the really big question is whether either or both fit their character model. Are they intense workers, fierce competitors, team players willing to commit to something bigger than themselves? Beane said that from watching AB on the field, they knew he was one of those guys. Are Clark and Clowney? My personal impression about Clowney, which may be unfair, is that he doesn't have the ferocious drive that his teammate Watt has. He has extraordinary ability, but it doesn't seem to me that all of that ability gets dedicated to the team every day, every week, every year. The very little bit I've heard about Clark is that he is the kind of the player McBeane like. But that's all conjecture. Then you have to weigh that against Beane's strong preference to build through the draft. He wants this team to be powerful for years to come, and his plan to do that is to build the talent slowly, not because slow is better than fast, but because if you're constantly upgrading through the draft you can afford, under the cap, to keep your team talented. One of you will disagree, but that's Beane's vision. When he's looking at a draft that apparently offers several opportunities to get an edge rusher in the early rounds, his preference is going to be, I think, to avoid writing a big check for a free agent and stick to his long-term plan. Maybe another way to look at it is whether Clark or Clowney is a difference maker like AB has been. Not whether they have the potential - if Beane is acquiring potential, he's going do that in the draft. Clowney still is potential; I don't think that Clowney has been a difference maker on his team in anything like AB was with the Steelers. I don't know about Clark. Bottom line, speaking from a position of ignorance about the players, I'd guess the most likely outcome is Beane goes after neither, and if he's going to go after either, I'd guess Clark. Personally, my confidence level in Beane is quite high these days. I like what I understand about his strategy and philosophy. My only concern is whether I'll live long enough to see it pay off. Other than that, I'm happy to sit and watch this all unfold. I think, for example, that it's going to be very interesting to see what he does in the draft. I'm am sure that there will be one or more moves or picks that will leave some people dumbfounded. I'll just wait for his post-draft press conference, when he'll tell us what he was thinking. It won't necessarily make the dumbfounded any happier, but it'll give us more information about how he approaches this whole process.

I don't get into these detailed discussions of this for that, but you raise an interesting point. There could be a trade back from 9 and a several trades packaging the day 3 picks. Bills could end up with a late first rounder and about 5 picks in the second third and fourth. I'd be good with that. But that's all dreaming. If they like what they see at 9 there will be no trade.

Well, I didn't see the article, and I think it's pretty hard NOT to understand what Beane is doing. He's been consistently up front about it. However, GMs certainly don't always agree on how to evaluate talent. The Bills are very focused on talent, but their focus is fixed on character issues. Some other teams probably don't evaluate players in the same way. So I can see a GM scratching his head about guys the Bills passed up, because another GM who rates physical ability highly and puts less emphasis on what McBeane value will see the Bills passing on what the other GM thinks is a star. This is the year we begin to see if McDermott's character-first approach translates into wins.

I think that's right. Beane wants the guy who, in their rankings, stands apart from everyone else, and especially apart from the guys who play that position. When he see one of those,he'll trade up. If he sees a bunch of receivers clustered on his board and his pick is coming, he's more likely to trade back.