transplantbillsfan

And this is why we will never know. You said Taylor not having any family roots makes it so that it's more likely he would leave. I say it makes it so his family becomes more of his team. These are the guys he's grown close to and become friends with over the last two years. And like I said before, in the end will never know, but I remember how I was when I was single and I stayed in my job not for money but for lifestyle. Lack of a family makes settled lot easier to be persuaded by friends and teammates. You think going somewhere else is the way he would prove his mettle. I say staying in Buffalo, finishing what he started and trying to end his career as a successful QB with one team would be the best thing for him, I think leaving Buffalo would have been like tucking his tail between his legs and realizing he failed even if he made more money elsewhere.

Hey... welcome back

You have NFL game pass? I feel like those of us who post here this much might find it worth it Though I'm lucky if I make one game a year, so anyone who forks out the cash to go to several games a year, it's understandable if not

Yeah that's the one. Those shallow crosses and the timing routes were incorporated more under Lynn than Roman. You can rewatch a bunch of the passes to Powell and Tate in particular and Clay more as the year ended after Lynn took over as examples.

Wow Thurm... streetlight, huh? Glad I can just laugh this off and not view it as a petty, offensive, arrogant and pretentious post. To your last question, look at those numbers to "the middle" according to ESPN's splits. Taylor's YPA between the hashmarks is 8.7, not 6.9. Try retracing your steps... your keys are out there. Let's pick this up after you've found all those references to the "middle third" that must just be so incredibly plentiful since, as you point out, it's a thing. So find those quotes that are clearly out there... just one with a coach talking about a QBs passes to... "the.... middle... third... of the field." Here's something from an article about the modern passing game: In footballs earliest days, the forward pass was primarily about surprising the defense or attacking a single, isolated defender locked in man coverage. As defenses got more sophisticated, offenses evolved too, with the largest contribution coming from former San Diego Chargers head coach Sid Gillman, the Father of the Passing Game. Gillman refined passing into a calibrated, organized attack. His insights inform every throw youll see this fall. Realizing that a football field is nothing more than a 53⅓-yard-wide geometric plane, Gillman designed his pass patterns to stretch defenses past their breaking points. His favorite method was to divide the field into five passing lanes and then allocate five receivers horizontally in each one. Against most zones, at least one receiver would be open. Below is an image from one of Gillmans final playbooks with the Philadelphia Eagles. Field division in 5 here... not 3

Thurm, find me a single time an NFL coach has ever referred to the "middle third" of the field and I'll concede. I've seen "between the hash marks" and "inside" or "outside the numbers," all of which we have numbers for to various degrees. You say: As we both know, I've already googled your charts. And for the thousandth time, the charts you're talking about are the wrong charts. The word around the league on Tyrod is that he can't and doesn't throw to the middle of the field. The reason people think that is because when you watch the games you see he doesn't throw to the middle third. Even the coaches last offseason talked about wanting to get Tyrod throwing to the middle of the field. This isn't made up. This is a thing. and then you go on to lump "deep" and "middle third" into this whole thing as though it's clearly implicit in what the coaches say when it's not. So go find a coach talking about "middle third" since, apparently, as you say, this is a thing.

I reformatted your post numerically for me to answer: 1- I think there are very, very few QBs like you refer to. There was a lot of buzz in Seattle this offseason that they were considering drafting a QB early to "light a fire" under Wilson. But regardless, the answer to your question is yes because that's what he is. Taylor survived a coaching and regime change and was kept as the starter despite new coach and GM who often want to bring in "their guy." And say what you want about a weak draft class, but at least 2 NFL teams (including a pretty highly respected Andy Reid) thought 2 QBs were good enough to not just draft in the first round, but pay a hefty price to trade up for them. So I guess yes, because he is. 2- Again, yes. He's looked like an NFL QB the last couple years when out of college he wasn't nearly this NFL ready. 3- I've been through my thoughts on this a number of times here, but I think Taylor wanted to be in Buffalo to "finish what he started" because he's an uber competitive guy. He made that publicly known in a way on locker clean out day that took away some of his negotiating leverage. Taylor told his agent to see what was out there but unless team and offer absolutely WOWed him he wanted to be back in Buffalo. You seriously think Cleveland or the Jets wouldn't have offered Taylor more and given him the starter job? I'd throw Houston and maybe SF in there, too, given their QB situation at that time. But play for the Jets or Browns for more money...? I don't think Taylor wanted that. Everyone says players always follow the money and don't care where they play. I think that's crap. Taylor is a single guy with no family, which I think plays a role here. He's got his parents to help support, but by the end of this year Taylor will have made over $25 million in the span of his career thus far; plenty for him and his parents. If he had a wife and kids I could have seen him being more likely to follow the money. So ultimately, I think he wanted to be in Buffalo. 4- Given what I said above and the situation: yes. Glad you said it's your opinion. I disagree. But we're never going to know for sure.

Round and round and round we go Thurm. The argument you're making to the deep portion of the field is getting ridiculous. Google PFF's passing charts for different QBs and you're trying to bicker about a very tiny handful of passes... because that's all they are. You're right, QBs rarely go deep. And safeties are typically in the middle of the field. That's why, by percentage, the deep middle is the most avoided zone by the vast majority of NFL QBs. Oh sure, there might be random years where a Tom Brady or a Phillip Rivers throws more than normal there by percentage. But that equates to no more than a handful of passes. Google the passing charts I mentioned from PFF, you're going to see Taylor going to the deep middle by percentage more than Brady or Wilson (on at least the ones I found). But even that doesn't matter because it's literally a few passes we're talking about. And if you still so desperately want to argue the ineptitude of Taylor to the deep middle in comparison to his peers, well, be my guest. As for those ESPN splits I included, the Bills were dead last in the NFL in YAC and 30th in the NFL in terms of YAC/reception. Pretty simple logic that the fact that Taylor has the 3rd highest YPA on that list is a damn good sign that he's throwing the ball quite a bit to the deep and intermediate middle in comparison to his peers and pretty darn effectively, as well:flirt:

I'm not going to backtrack anything because that's how I felt after the Pittsburgh game, but I chose my words very particularly (and I remember this) as "Taylor's not good enough for us." I said (and felt) that because I just wanted a flat out Elite QB who could elevate everyone around him and Taylor wasn't that guy and I still don't think he ever will be. Again, I still don't think that. But after that emotional moment and the last couple games of the season and thinking about the crap this team dealt with last year, I think Taylor deserves another year of true evaluation because of all the stuff (particularly coaches and injuries) that visibly affected both his success and the team's success last year. I'm super happy we have those 2 firsts next year... because if Taylor falls on his face, we have some bank to get our guy, finally. You're right. We're going to see. But just taking a step back after an emotional season, last season, to some degree, was a bit of a mulligan for Taylor. Can you refer to the article and my previous posts in the thread on this subject, please? Don't feel like typing it out again.

This post is baffling. First of all... 50?! Name 10... and be sure you include all the "yadda yadda" you probably just glossed over. Second of all... ummm... quickly showed they belong...? While it might not be to Aaron Rodgers's level, I think that's what he's done...

We just all need to be more civil bud. Me included.

I understand, but actually think those timing routes are the very routes Roman should have focused on with Taylor. Lynn incorporated them more and he was pretty good when he ran those plays. Think about it: read the coverages before the ball is snapped, have a plan when it's snapped, 3-step drop and deliver. Less time to think. Maybe less responsibility post snap in terms of how many reads at that point, but isn't that a large part of the WCO? Know where the ball's going when the ball is snapped. Not much time for the second guessing or doubting that seems to get him into the most trouble. 2 examples just off the top of my head are both of his TD passes in the last Miami game last year. Ball out pretty quick on both plays. Little time to think about the congestion with defenders around. 2 TDs, including one that should have been the game winner with less than 90 seconds remaining. Lots of other throws like that that Lynn sprinkled into the offense and Taylor delivered starting in week 3. Not as many as there probably will be in a WCO, but certainly more than in Roman's offense. Lynn's offense was definitely more of the WCO than Roman's in terms of play calling.

How many QBs rode the bench for 4 years with no opportunity to start before going to another team, winning the starting QB job, and demonstrating from game 1 he belongs as an NFL starting QB? It's fine. We know you don't think Taylor's any good. But this argument you're making isn't very strong simply because what I just said above almost never happens, but it did with Tyrod. So, one thing that almost never happens (and I challenge you to go find all those instances where it did happen if I'm wrong) happened with our own starting QB. Maybe the thing you think has little chance of happening has a decent chance of happening considering he's already doing the unexpected.

Passer Rating, huh? 89.6 > 84.9 So does this mean Taylor "could be a good one" even more than Siemian? Friendly bet Buffalo wins one of them?

A forced one, yes. The mods basically said they were enforcing martial law here to try to get this place completely civil before TC and the season starts. It's okay, though. I deserved it as much as they did. I may not have started it, but I certainly could have taken the high road and not retaliated, but I didn't. I hope I've learned my lesson, at least to some degree

Good thing we started seeing those things happen in Taylor's last couple games. From the Cleveland game: 3-22-BUF 44(3:14) (Shotgun) 5-T.Taylor pass deep middle to 88-M.Goodwin to CLE 33 for 23 yards (58-C.Kirksey). Caught at CLE 36, slanting from left. From the Miami game: 4-7-MIA 7(1:25) (Shotgun) 5-T.Taylor pass short right to 85-C.Clay for 7 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Caught 2 yds. into end zone. The Replay Official reviewed the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. The ruling on the field was confirmed. Let's hope it keeps up Dude, no need to antagonize people. Your premise that all people who supported EJ or were "EJ homers" are now "Tyrod haters" is wrong. I supported and wanted EJ to win that QB competition in 2015. I was also what some considered an "EJ homer," though I think those terms are ridiculous and thrown around too loosely. But now, clearly, I'm a Tyrod supporter or a "Tyrod homer" as some would say. So the premise that all people who supported EJ hate Tyrod is just plain wrong. Crusher and Mary Baulstein or Ryan or whatever postername he was under were in the penalty box with me. If they were in it as long as I was (2 weeks), they should be out by now. Took me 10 years of posting on a Bills message board, but I finally got my first ban and I still feel a little dirty

Whoa whoa whoa... I fully admit to being a former EJ guy who's now a Tyrod guy, and you can ask the former BBMBers because I was still that during that 3 way competition, so I don't buy into whoever had the notion that if you liked EJ, you don't like Tyrod. But you're showing some serious bias here and it's a little revealing. You talk about the preseason games as if that's all the QB competition consisted of, which it didn't. Yes, EJ looked good from our perspective because of all those "wow plays" we all so yearned for in his first couple years. We wanted him to let it loose and he did and it resulted in serious chunk yards and a handful of TDs. We love that as fans, but I doubt those are the plays that win a QB the starting job. Taylor was good in those games too, but in executing more of the NFL passes that are the bread and butter of an NFL offense. Less gaudy numbers, but I doubt the coaches cared about numbers in the preseason. And there's your entire neglect of practice, where coaches do most of their evaluation. Lots of accounts about Taylor playing really well and turning heads that summer. As for EJ... This was the summer of the hospitality tent incident, remember? Good God

It's far from a statistical fact that "he stays in the pocket for about 1 second." That might not be malicious on your part. But it's a pretty wildly hyperbolic statement and might be viewed as trolling.

Sorry, but go look at Vick's career. His career was over because of age. You act like his best years were his first couple years except they were his first couple years and they weren't. If you're saying that by the time teams saw about 100 games worth of film on tape that was what ended his career because by then he was figured out, that's a stretch. Vick played at a very high level in 2010 with the Eagles. Vick was pretty special. Taylor's not there, but he's definitely closer to the athlete Vick was than pretty much anyone I can think of at QB before or since. Fine, we can disagree about Cam because we clearly do. If Cam didn't have his dual threat ability, he'd be a below average QB. He's just not consistently accurate enough as a passer. All my opinion, of course. And I'm sorry, but I just think your assessment of Taylor is extreme hyperbole.

Those QBs don't last as long, I agree. But they're never part of winning teams? Never? Mike Vick would disagree. And Vick was definitely more of a runner than Tyrod is. Yet, he made the playoffs a few times over the span of his career, which was a 10+ year career, mind you. Vick was a lethal weapon. And if anyone watched the NFL Network special on him, you'd know that his coach actually told him when he'd drop back to pass, if he saw a certain coverage, take off and run. I know there are people who hate to talk about the value of something like that, but that was lethal with Vick. Taylor's not quite the athlete Vick is. But he's probably about as close to the athlete as a runner as anyone in the NFL at QB in a very long time and he's a better passer than Vick is. No, he doesn't have a stronger arm, but Taylor's certainly more of a pocket QB than Vick was. Cam Newton really falls into this category, too. He's certainly a QB who runs better than he passes and he just made the Super Bowl and was the league MVP a couple years ago. I don't expect Taylor to play into his 40s, but if he can improve and become a long term answer, if he's playing when he's 35 at a fairly high level (aka: standard NFL starting QB level) I don't think it'd be reasonable to be too upset to have him as the Bills QB.

Thurm, we've been through this over at BBMB and you're going to completely ignore this because that's what you do, but in order to save some posters from some of your misinformation, I'm going to respond to this with a bunch of stuff I've brought up to you but you ignore. SInce that was on another message board, we wanna make sure we understand why your premise is incomplete and/or inconclusive, because you must analyze other QBs comparatively rather than just taking Taylor's numbers and arbitrarily saying they aren't good enough based on your own personal opinion rather than what other NFL QBs are doing. First, stop with this deep middle obsession of yours. It doesn't matter because NFL QBs go there such a small percentage of the time that that area of the field (20+ yards to the middle) might be the most ignored by NFL QBs. According to just a few of the PFF passing charts I could find, in terms of the deep middle of the field Cam Newton went there 5.9% of the time Tom Brady went there 3.8% of the time Russell Wilson went there 2.5% of the time Tyrod Taylor went there 4.4% of the time QBs rarely throw to the deep middle. Period. ESPN's stats are literally stats to the middle of the field because they're between the hashmarks. And in 2016, Taylor's numbers compared to a bunch of other QBs looked like this: Rodgers: 9.3% of total attempts, 57.9 % completions, 7.5 YPA, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, 67.1 Passer Rating Newton: 10.6% of total attempts, 59.3 % completions, 8.6 YPA, 3 TDs, 1 INTs, 98 Passer Rating Mariota: 10.6% of total attempts, 66.7 % completions, 8.1 YPA, 3 TDs, 1 INTs, 103.6 Passer Rating Carr: 12% of total attempts, 67.2 % completions, 8.6 YPA, 5 TDs, 3 INTs, 100.3 Passer Rating Taylor: 7.3% of total attempts, 78.1 % completions, 8.7 YPA, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 103 Passer Rating Tannehill: 10.3% of total attempts, 70 % completions, 6.3 YPA, 0 TDs, 1 INTs, 76.3 Passer Rating Wilson: 8.4% of total attempts, 65.2 % completions, 7.5 YPA, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 83.9 Passer Rating Cousins: 11.7% of total attempts, 74.6 % completions, 10.4 YPA, 4 TDs, 4 INTs, 102.8 Passer Rating Stafford: 10.8% of total attempts, 70.3 % completions, 7.9 YPA, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, 93.8 Passer Rating Luck: 15.8% of total attempts, 61.6 % completions, 7.4 YPA, 6 TDs, 0 INTs, 107.5 Passer Rating Winston: 9.7% of total attempts, 72.7 % completions, 8.2 YPA, 2 TDs, 1 INTs, 101.5 Passer Rating Ryan: 12.5% of total attempts, 71.6 % completions, 10.3 YPA, 7 TDs, 1 INTs, 133.3 Passer Rating Yeah, those take all passes to the middle, but notice how high his YPA is compared to everyone else... so those aren't just little dumpoffs with a whole bunch of YAC, especially since we know Taylor's WR corps got some of the lowest YAC in the NFL. So that's just over 6 yards worth of passes horizontally across the field in the middle. A football field is 160 feet or 53.333 yards. Your "middle third" obsession is 17.7 yards. We have data on 6.5 of those yards, so you're arguing that all those leftover numbers for Taylor that fall outside the hashmarks but between the numbers fall in the 3.7 yards immediately inside the numbers but not any closer to the hashmarks. You're saying he ignores and doesn't do well about 7 yards immediately outside the hashmarks on both sides, but does just fine inside those hashmarks, which is the most precise middle of the field you can get pretty much, and the rest of his good throws come in the just under 4 yards right before the numbers on both sides. You're arguing that his good passing inside the hashmarks, or exactly to the middle of the field, and just inside the numbers for just under 4 yards (about 3.7 yards) end up skewing his numbers that he has for PFF for the "middle of the field" and that he's absolutely horrible and/or ignores those 7 yards just outside the hashmarks and before those 3.7 yards inside the numbers. 2 questions: Did you chart other QBs to find out how they're doing in those same areas? I hope so, because otherwise the numbers don't mean much. AND Let's say you're right (and we can't really say that until we have some numbers of other QBs for comparison's sake) and Taylor's great inside the hashmarks and just inside the numbers on both sides for about 4 yards but struggles more than other QBs for about the 7 yards inside that. So what?

Steve Young I really don't know what you think you're responding to that I wrote... seems something's getting lost in translation because you're talking about something totally separate from what I meant in that quote.

Oh good god... Back to your "deep and intermediate middle third" again. I counter your "as I've extensively documented" with "as you've constantly been proven wrong and blithely ignored your own misconceptions" But... ya know... we all need our "deep and intermediate middle third" fix.

Actually, those "dot plots" and analyses of Taylor's throwing success don't show he's better down the sidelines and outside the hashes, they just show that he goes there more. According to PFF, on passes beyond the LOS to the "middle of the field" up to 20 yards beyond the LOS (I think we can all agree it's probably those throws that are 5-15 yards beyond that are mostly the bread and butter of the WCO) Taylor was 82/112 (73.2%) for 839 yards for 7.5 YPA with 4 passing TDs and 0 INTs for a Passer Rating of 106.2. And yeah, those are just numbers, but as I said earlier, go back and rewatch some of the passes in the handful of games right after Roman was let go and Lynn took over. You'll notice Lynn concentrated on incorporating more of these types of plays than Roman did. You'll see more of those "shallow cross" passes the article refers to particularly to Powell and Tate. So it's not that Taylor can't do it, he just wasn't asked to do it much at all under Roman and then a little more under Lynn.

He also had 506 yards rushing and a couple rushing TDs in those games, along with 1 lost fumble. I'd say 3,868 yards and 28 TDs to only 8 turnovers in what doesn't even equal a full season is production most would get behind. And to be fair, Kirby said it was "borderline elite." I don't really agree with that if you consider just his passing numbers, but when you consider his production on the ground, which was just under 258 yards per game, there are only 9 NFL QBs averaging more yards passing per game in NFL history. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_per_g_career.htm Sure, except most of Taylor's production on the ground comes on passing plays, very often making a positive play out of what would have otherwise been a sack.