The AntiFin

I think this kiss was WAY more sensual... http://www.nfl.com/videos/new-england-patriots/09000d5d804cadbc

It's a pleasure debating you. I have seen the difference, on this board, between "the good" and "the bad/the ugly" -- in this thread alone. Yes, true. I'm definitely not disputing that -- It was a case study, and the stats are all there. I just wonder what the results would have yielded with an average QB (AKA one not named Dilfer). Maybe Big Ben from 2005-2010 -- when his defense was good (then suffered key injuries), and Pittsburgh was cycling through running backs (Bettis retiring; Parker getting injured; Parker flaming out; Mendenhall entering stage left). Everyone judges QBs differently. I happen to judge them by their ability to win games that matter -- like playoff games. And, if I have to go for individual stats, I'd trade YPA and QB rating for TDs vs INTs. Every touchdown scores points for your team (obviously); Every INT gives the other team a chance to score. But to be clear -- "heart" is not a statistic, but in the tough playoff games, it easily could mean the difference between a W and an L. Tony Romo is a great example of that. What a lot of people don't understand that along with "heart" comes "intestinal fortitude." You could have great individual stats, but if you soil yourself when in a big game -- You really aren't that great a QB. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it! I only added this scenario for "elite" QBs (per my previous thread). They're likely calling their own plays, or at least most of them. Let's take Brees from Week 1 -- I believe it was the first game of the year vs. Green Bay on a Thursday. He brought the Saints back almost single-handedly in the final few minutes. GB's defense sealed the deal. (Some might argue it was the Saints' rookie RB who didn't seal the deal). But Brees wins that game outright against Seattle. He wins that game against our Bills. Let's move on to the Week 3, where the Saints played Houston. Payton admits he gave Brees free reign on the final drive: http://www.wwltv.com/sports/black-and-gold/Payton-Brees-called-entire-game-winning-drive-from-the-field-130596483.html. New Orleans' defense is hardly great -- even good -- yet Brees wins because he can win a shootout -- or at least hang in till the bitter end. Brees is fortunate to have lots of weapons around him -- or at least people who are better because he is an elite QB. Rodgers has weapons, too. Manning has fewer. Brady has next to nothing. Exactly. If you'll recall, defense was one of the items I listed as factors that could help an average QB's individual stats -- not the sole item. I suppose that depends on the RB. Is the dominant RB one who only runs, or a RB who can catch, too? Sproles has been instrumental this year in helping Brees' numbers. Even if he just carries the football, my suggestion was that the defense spends extra time focusing on the run -- which tends to open the passing game. The defense is much less likely to blitz, thus giving the QB time to make the accurate throws. I think that for either of us to nail this point home, we'd have to expand the sample to more than five QBs -- of all different varieties. I don't think either of us has the time for that, but that doesn't make a debate like this any less provocative -- at least for us.

BuffOrange, congratulations on "rant of the year." Take a look back at how *you* twisted everything I've written -- and backed up -- to make your own "points." THAT is pathetic. You have been thoroughly annihilated in this thread with facts and stats, and THIS is your last hurrah? Wow. One would think that someone with 5,000+ posts would have the hang of this by now. I don't blame you for being angry. You had your a$$ handed to you by a rookie on this board. It's a good thing you surrendered. It was inevitable. P.S. Don't flatter yourself by thinking people change their screen names just for you. Narcissism is a mental illness. You should have it checked out.

Hey, that's what boards like these are for. If we all agreed, it would be quite boring. The difference is that you don't dismiss points as "absurd," and you certainly bring well-thought-out and relevant counters. Thanks for that. Of course, we're talking hypothetically here, as "great" defensive play is more in the eyes of the beholder. The scoreboard doesn't tell the whole story for defenses. Actually, scores are almost exclusively attributed to offenses at first glance, unless it's a total blowout. (That is one way fantasy football is skewed, in my opinion. Three picks that go for six the other way should not count against a defense. But if you look at the final score, it sure seems that way, even though the defense wasn't on the field, and it's the QB's fault). I totally appreciate what you did in terms of research -- But is Dilfer the best example here? Hey, I'm hating on Rivers, sure. But that comparison is just CRUEL! ~ Dilfer is arguably the worst Super Bowl-winning QB ever. (Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler come to mind, too, but Joe Namath tops my list, followed by Dilfer). And, as you pointed out, that team was blessed with a defense that played out of its mind. Top 3 all time. The Ravens racked up more than 1,800 yards on the ground that year. When your defense is that good -- as is your running game -- a QB could be irrelevant by default. Trent had Sharpe, but didn't really need him for much more than a decoy. He was smart enough to know that the only thing he had to do was hand off the football and "not suck" and the Super Bowl was theirs. Actually, he got away with it since midseason, when he took over for Tony Banks. I think you or I could have QB'd that team to victory. I think Dilfer's realization that he didn't have to do much made him a smart QB -- far smarter than QBs who think they ARE the team and have to do everything. I'm not sure I'd judge him by YPA. Again, I see (and admire) what you did in choosing a QB who was surrounded by good/great defenses. But I think Dilfer was more of a "QB" than a QB. Note the quotes -- They had to assign him a position because he was on the field. Because you offered up a player to make your point, I'll do the same. And no, it's not Rivers. Let's go with Terry Bradshaw. Four Super Bowl wins. Two Super Bowl MVPs. A lot of people insist that Bradshaw was a great QB. He's in the Hall. To his credit, Bradshaw showed up for the big games. He led four game-winning playoff TD drives. He won those MVPs for a reason. But was he really a "great" QB? He had a career record of 212 TDs and 210 INTs, and a career QB rating of 70.9. Career YPA: 7.2. How many of those SBs does he win without the Steel Curtain? How many does he get to? Is he in the Hall of Fame? His defenses played well enough for him to win. But what would his individual stats have been with a bad defense? My guess is he would have been run out of the league by 1974. Let's start with bad QBs, limited run support and good defenses. A bad QB goes four and out; defense comes back on -- gets tired -- and eventually no longer is such a good defense. Under this scenario, you're not going to be a QB in this league very long unless you've got negatives of your coach doing something naughty. I think we can agree on that. Mediocre QBs, good run support, and good defenses: This is the meat of my point. I think this depends on what the defense does. If the defense plays out of its mind and scores a TD on every other INT or fumble recovery, then no. They'll run up the score that way, and use the running game much more to eat up the clock. But if the defense continuously recovers fumbles or intercepts passes in the opposing team's red zone -- or even territory -- it gives their QB another chance to punch it in, or run it in -- thus bolstering the QB's individual stats. That scenario has "mid-to-late 2000 Chargers" written all over it. Just so we're clear -- this was the point I was trying to make with Rivers. Truly elite QBs can win with any type of defense and run support. In fact, they elevate the level of play of those around them. (Wes Welker, anyone?) I hate the Pats as much as anyone, but Brady is just sick. His defense is among the worst in the league, and as a result, he has to play catch-up (or "a punch for punch," as I call it) -- which only elite QBs can do. I don't have the numbers in front of me (and they would be tough to track down, as they're subjective), but I remember maybe one year that Manning's Colts had a "good" defense. Manning, Brady, Rodgers, Brees. Those QBs can match TDs with the best of 'em – and they all have proven track records of winning big games. I don’t see any other QB right now in their company – especially the whiny QB who prompted the “absurd” comment.

My 10-year-old nephew respectfully disagrees.

Just like pro wrestling is fake. Doesn't mean it's not entertaining.

You asked for stats on Rivers. I gave you stats on Rivers -- and his supporting cast. You didn't like what you read -- so now you're replying with my lack of stats on Manning? Weak. I believe in stats when they count... You know, games that matter. Showing up for those games makes a QB elite. I never denied that Rivers' individual regular-season stats were good. I pointed out that two HOFers in that offense -- and a stellar defense -- helped pad those numbers. If you don't see that -- wow. If you're just going to throw stuff out without doing research, I'll respond in kind. You're referring to a no-name wide receiver who had a couple of good games -- last year (one year). That's your argument? Really? Do you even read what you type? Go back to your original post in this thread. You wrote that Rivers was surrounded by "crap players" until this year. I would say that makes "this year" relevant. So what's his excuse this year? Yeah, he only scored 24 TDs for the Chargers in 2008 and 2009. He sucked. That didn't help open up the passing game one bit. Quite simple. In your original post, you wrote, "His WR core has always been crap." Therefore, you believe Jackson is "crap." Short memory, huh? Doesn't tell me nearly as much as them letting Brees go. San Diego's front office is a joke, and Jackson has made some unbelievably acrobatic catches all season because Rivers has been so inaccurate. Look at the film if you don't want to look at the stats. That's strange. You're the one who jumped on this thread and called my theory on Rivers "absurd." I obviously hit a nerve. I started posting here to offer my perspective on trading a whole draft for Luck. The OP of that segment actually backed up his arguments, and it was a pleasure debating him. Actually, you seemingly are the one who knows everyone in the world. Remember this from your first response? "My God, you cannot possibly preach 'context' and pretend like Russel and Smith and Eli were as highly touted as Luck when they were coming out. They weren't and making up "second coming can't miss" quotes doesn't make it so." Apparently you know everything everyone in the world said. Manning: To quote from Mel Kiper's column from February 18, 2004: http://proxy.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=1739775. In case you don't have Insider Access, the subtitle reads, "This year's crop of can't-miss prospects is seven deep, while the Bengals, Dolphins and Broncos should be able to fill needs later in the first round." In that column, Kiper states, "The drop-off this year occurs after six or seven players. It looks like the first six picks right now will be QB Eli Manning, WR Larry Fitzgerald, QB Ben Roethlisberger, OT Robert Gallery, TE Kellen Winslow Jr. and S Sean Taylor." Not only is it written, he said it ad nauseum on draft day. Russell: Kiper compared him to John Elway on draft day 2007. YUP. Someone said it. For the record, I can't stand Kiper. He's amusing -- and not in a good way. But I have no problem using his quotes to refute your point that nobody was calling Eli and Russell "can't miss." Hell, I didn't even remember the Russell/Elway comparison till I watched the clip. No. But thanks for establishing the fact that you have a pattern of argumentative posts. For the record, I was pissed that the Steelers took him two spots ahead of where we drafted that year. Now, on the off-chance that you want to debate the ORIGINAL topic of this post -- The Cardinal has one of the best teams in school history this year. On Saturday, they had five rushing scores. I'm not saying Luck stinks. He's a great college football player. I'm sticking to my original point that there is no way I'd trade a whole draft for him. To take it a step further, if he is drafted by the Dolphins, he will suck for many years. If he winds up in Indy -- he'll be okay, but not great. If he goes to a contender, he has the chance to be elite. But I don't think he's worth all of the hype he's getting. I'd be happy to revisit this three years in to his pro career and admit I was wrong -- If I am.

Yesterday? Welcome to puberty.

How about making excuses for him this year? That would be a good start. By your own admission, he has a good team around him this year. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that he has 6 TDs and 7 INTs. I don't blame you for not touching the fact that his wins came against teams that are a combined 6-19. Refute those numbers, please. I just gave you a chance to defend him this year. Go for it. I'll get to the other seven in a bit. I'll go with a pattern of poor playoff performances and this year's numbers. Remember, according to you, this is the only year he's got "decent players" around him. You conveniently forgot that LT and Gates likely will be first-ballot HOFers. You apparently have no concept of the importance of a dominant runner in the passing game. But I digress -- According to you, LT was a "crap player." And according to you, SD's defense -- which through most of Phillips' tenure was "lights out" -- doesn't help a QB win or pad his numbers. I highly recommend you follow your own advice and visit these sites. (I chose NFL.com, but thanks). What will you find? You'll find LT's stats (84 rushing TDs; 9 receiving TDs, 2005-2009). Then, of course, you'd have to man up and admit that a dominant runner like LT could *gasp* open up a passing game for virtually any QB in the NFL. Piggybacking off of that, let's take a look at Gates' stats (68 TDs, 2005-2011). Now, V. Jackson's numbers (31 TDs, 2006-2011). I'm only bringing up Jackson because you said he had "crap players" around him for his entire career, except for this year -- which we've already established is not going very well for him. According to you, LT's play and Jackson's play had nothing to do with Rivers' individual stats. Okaaaaaaaaay... Yup, I haven't posted a single stat here to back up my theory that Rivers is mediocre at best. You're right again! Let's look at Rivers' playoff "facts and stats," shall we? Appearances: 7 Record: 3-4 TDs: 8 INTs: 9 Want more stats? Cool. Let's go over his individual playoff games, shall we? Game 1 (Loss, 24-21 vs. New England): 14-32, 230 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT Game 2 (Win, 17-6 vs. Tennessee): 19-30, 292 YD, 1TD, 1 INT Game 3 (Win, 28-24 vs. Indianapolis): 14-19, 264 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT Game 4 (Loss, 21-12 vs. New England): 19-37, 211 YD, 0 TD, 2 INT Game 5 (Win, 23-17 vs. Indianapolis): 20-36, 217 YD, 0 TD, 1 INT Game 6 (Loss, 35-24 vs. Pittsburgh): 21-35, 308 YD, 3 TD, 1 INT Game 7 (Loss, 17-14 vs. NYJ): 27-40, 298 YD, 1 TD, 2 INT To recap: Three games without a TD. One "excellent" game (against Pittsburgh). The others were "meh." Now, why do I say Rivers has no heart? He doesn't show up when it counts, like Tony Romo. Why do I call Rivers a "punk?" Well, there are no stats to back this up. He's a whiny biatch on the field when things don't go his way. He did it all game yesterday -- whining to the refs. I'll never forget THIS from 2007: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsSpYLU7Ig0 It has become obvious that you don't realize (or that you fail to acknowledge) football is a team sport, and, moreso, that having outstanding positional players can work wonders for a QB's individual statistics. Keep your individual stats -- I want a leader. Rivers is not a leader. Maybe -- just maybe -- he learned a thing or two from Drew Brees while they were both in San Diego. Yeah, THAT Drew Brees. The one with the ring. The one the Chargers tossed aside for Rivers.

BuffOrange, I would LOVE to read your brilliant analysis on Rivers' performance today. He had two good RBs on the field in Mathews and Tolbert. He had his "money guy" Gates back. V-Jax? Check. Even Floyd made an acrobatic catch (which Jackson has been making all year because Rivers' accuracy has been AWFUL. Six touchdowns to seven INTs, if you care to debate that). So, who are you going to blame today? The kicker? The officials? The defense, who scored a TD for him? Go for it. The fact is Rivers' wins this year have come against Minnesota, KC, Miami and Denver. That's quite an accomplishment. I say again -- Rivers is an immature punk who does NOT have the heart to win a championship. He has a big mouth, but nothing to show for it through his eight years in the NFL. What's "absurd" -- other than your overall post, devoid of any facts or stats -- is any type of comparison to Peyton Manning. What an insult to a true, elite NFL QB. Oh, and check out what others are saying about your hero here. They must have watched the same game I did. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/137414-how-good-are-the-jets/

You won't get laid, or your money back. Can't imagine any woman in her right mind getting in the mood after seeing that -- Unless she's hypnotized by the pattern.

We're getting Maybin back?

Allegedly a brain tumor. Wow. http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7127181/jerome-harrison-tumor-which-voided-detroit-lions-philadelphia-eagles-trade-source-says

And you can get really, really lousy ones higher in the draft. We've done it for years!

Again, some very valid points. I think the strategy could work for the right team -- maybe a team that is one or two players away. I just don't think we're that team right now. For a team that hasn't sniffed the playoffs in 11 years, I don't see how this flies. Let's face it, unless "the long run" is measured in days, I don't think Ralph is buying. Chan builds through the draft -- He's not buying. I'm not sure the fans would buy. I'm a patient guy -- I could be persuaded to buy. But there's no indication Ralph is leaving me the team. Again, I completely agree. And I love Fitzmagic. Great story. But I don't believe he's a franchise QB. I think he works for the moment, though. One of these years we're going to get the next Jim Kelly in the draft. I believe Chan and Buddy can find that guy. And we won't have to trade a thing for him. No, what he did last year was nothing short of spectacular. I thought he was a good player last year. After the SB, I thought he was a great player. Seeing him carry that in to this year, the guy could become a legend. And, for those who thought Favre was a "class act" (prior to him becoming a d-bag these past two years) -- Well, he had nothing on Rodgers. Also, regarding GB, they had scrub running backs. Every once in a blue moon a player steps up and carries a team on his shoulders. No question that player was Rodgers last year. Dissecting the situation in Indy, no question that was Manning for 12 years. This is where I hit the proverbial wall. In 2005, Alex Smith was the guy everyone was drooling over -- and of course he went #1 overall. Rodgers went 24th. NOBODY saw this coming from Rodgers. They assumed it would come from Smith. I'm a betting man -- But those stakes are too high for me. If I'm not mistaken, Campbell went a pick later -- And he's pretty much done. If a GM does this and gets "a Rodgers," he's a genius -- provided he's around when he blossoms. If a GM does this and gets "a Smith/Campbell" -- He's fired. Remember, Rodgers wasn't a stud right away -- It took time. (Just ask Favre ) So, I guess my question is this: Do you believe Luck is the next Rodgers? I want you on record. If your answer is yes, point taken. I will say, I think the chances of Trent Edwards being named Super Bowl MVP are greater than the chances of any NFL team trading every draft pick for Luck. I'd put big money on that.

Man, I was having a great day till I read this. Class act; Way too soon. RIP -- And thanks for all the great memories.

It won the Giants a Super Bowl. Literally.

Got it. That's why I brought up Eli and Alex. So at least we're closer to "apples to apples." By "MEH" I mean mediocre. I don't think anyone can argue that he's not inconsistent. You never know which Eli you're going to get on any given Sunday. For better or worse, I have a lot of friends who are Giants fans. Most think he's average, and they're right. Eli is better than Alex, without question. But he is not an "elite" QB in this league, IMO. I'll take Brady, Rodgers, Brees, P. Manning, Rivers over Eli any day. Jury's still out on Vick (as a passer), Newton, Stafford, Bradford -- But I'd wager three of the four end up with better numbers/careers than Eli when all is said and done. For every question, there was praise. This happens every year -- with every prospect. Let's revisit this in the weeks leading up to draft day. You'll hear plenty -- as well as accolades. You'll likely hear BOTH from the SAME "expert" in a three-month span, so that talking head can say he was "right" one way or the other. Happens all the time. Look, I don't disagree with your assessment of Luck. He's a heckuva college QB. But you said it yourself -- It all depends on the situation he falls in to. Meaning you'd trade every draft pick of 2012 for Luck if he were somewhere between Eli and Peyton? That would be a Phillip Rivers type. That's where we disagree -- and there's nothing wrong with differing opinions. This team is vastly improved over last year, but this team, right now, does not win with "Phillip Rivers" at QB. Far too many holes, still. We need that draft.

Context, please. Some of us were talking about giving up an entire draft for a No.1 one overall, so Russell and Leaf (#2 overall) came up. But I'll bite. I give you Alex Smith and Eli Manning -- both No. 1 overall picks. I don't recall either being a "huge headcase" or "lazy as anything." They both allegedly were "the second coming," and -- well, judge their pro careers for yourself. Smith: Went 21-1 as a starter at Utah and scored a 40 on the Wonderlic and had a GPA of 3.75. He was dubbed a "can't miss prospect" by many. Before the draft, I can't tell you how many times I heard the words "sure thing" associated with Smith. Manning: A simple search didn't yield his complete college record, but he "tied 45 single-game, season and career records" at Ole Miss. In other words, not too shabby. He scored a 39 on the Wonderlic and had a GPA > 3.4. His pedigree speaks for itself. Both players are "MEH," but I'll give Manning credit for being on a team that won the Super Bowl. (I give the same credit to Trent Dilfer). I'm also not going to "find the obvious knock on him." And I'm not saying Luck couldn't be the next Joe Montana. As you point out, he could very well end up on a bad team (as most #1 overall picks do) and then it would be up to him whether he's the next Peyton Manning -- or the next Alex Smith. We likely won't know which for years.

No way. Andrew Luck could be a god, but if he doesn't have the likes of Wood and Levitre protecting him or Lee and Stevie to throw to, he's just a tackling dummy. Montana, Kelly, Elway, Marino -- same deal. Dilfer showed us that a very mediocre QB can win a Super Bowl. I guess my "argument" is that I wouldn't sacrifice a team for one player. I wouldn't even sacrifice the Bills' 2011 draft for Rogers. Our defense is horrible despite some nice picks. Imagine what it would be like without them. Rodgers couldn't win that type of shootout week in and week out. I have to say, though, I really like your style of posting. You research stats, make valid points and offer an interesting perspective.

I've gotta go with the '95 AND '96 Jets under Rich Kotite. For as much as we b*tch about Lil' Donte being picked 8th overall, Kotite and co. had Warren Sapp sitting right there at #9 in the 1995 draft and the Jets took... ...Kyle Brady. Kotite ended with a 4-28 record for the two years.

I don't disagree -- IF you're 100% sure that what you're getting is a "sure thing," which as we all know is impossible. For every Rodgers and Manning there's a Leaf and Russell. Rodgers was hardly a sure thing when GB drafted him. The knock on Peyton was that he never won big games (yes, he since has proved that wrong). Personal statistics aside, I (personally) don't believe Rivers is in the same league as the other two. I don't believe he'll ever win a championship even though he's got all the talent around him to do so. I'd be interested to know how many on this board would be comfortable trading all of our 2012 picks for a young Phillip Rivers. Which reminds me -- Didn't Eli go #1 that year? Even better -- Who would trade all of our 2012 draft picks for a young Eli Manning?

Mike Ditka posts in our forums!

Can't blame this one on Al's senility, I guess. Who the hell is calling the shots over there?

Quite possible. They're playing for their head coach's future tonight. Could be another wild Monday night Jets/Blowfish game, with Miami squeaking one out for a change.