OldTimer1960

Thank you. Why rush to judgement and write him off so early? So bitter people can say they were right? Some other. Bills who people wanted to run out of town include: Aaron Williams and Leodis McKelvin from the current team, Eric Moulds - one of the best WRs they ever had, Pat Williams barely played for his first few years, Steve Tasker had been cut before he got here....

I don't disagree that EJ earned his way to the bench, but I don't think that JW's all22 review should be the basis of any argument. Without reading what JW wrote, how exactly did he confirm what Manuel's read was on any play? Further, how many great NFL QBs, much less young QBs could make even basic reads and throws in the face of constant pressure? I guess that we should all disregard how bad Tom Brady looked last night (and so far this season) because he has been under big pressure. Likewise, I remember Peyton Manning looking lost in the Super Bowl under pressure. It isn't as cut and dried as many want to argue. Offense is a system that depends on: 1. QB makes fast/correct reads and makes accurate throws 2. OL provides time to read defense and get set to make throws, allows WR to run full routes and look for ball 3. WR run proper routes and make correct sight adjustments / catch passes that are within their catch radius - I never hear Calvin Johnson complain that he had to jump or lay-out for a pass. 4. Runs are productive enough to keep the defense off-balance. 5. Avoid penalties and negative plays to stay in manageable down and distance situations. AGAIN FOR EMPHASIS: I am not arguing that EJ should still be starting at this point. However, to lay all the blame at his feet and pretend that all will be well now that the immortal Kyle Orton is starting is a joke - at least in my opinion.

You are right - and neither would Kyle Orton

And we must be delusional to be excited over Chad Henne- err Ryan Fitzpatrick, I mean Kyle Orton

Great, go into 2015 with Kyle Orton - sign me up for my season tix now... The optimism for this move is too much for me.

Have you even seen Orton play? Curb your enthusiasm or be prepared to be let down.

+100 The next time that they block JJWatt will be the first. Note that I am not deflecting blame from EJ, just agreeing that ANY QB that is under constant pressure isn't going to play well. If you don't think so, ask Peyton Manning how things went in the last Super Bowl.

I wanted Manuel to show enough progress to justify that he get this year to learn and develop, however even I could see that he shouldn't be playing. Still, turning to Orton is no great consolation prize. He is a nine year vet who is a career 58% passer who has a slightly positive TD to INT ratio. I expect that he might look good for a game or two, but it will be a mirage - he is a journeyman QB. The Bills will still be at a disadvantage at QB vs 25 or more other teams a that is, Orton might be as good or better than maybe a few other starting QBs.

I understand the frustration with Manuel, believe me I do. However, Manuel still is a bit of an unknown who might have upside. Orton has proven to be a journeyman QB and isn't suddenly going to become a good enough QB to get this team to the playoffs and make a serious run. If this team wanted a veteran who had already reached his ceiling who *might* have been good enough to get the team to the playoffs, then they should have traded for Alex Smith when he was available. Face it, outstanding QBs are hard to find. Even those drafted high in the first round are very hit or miss. Might as well ride with the guy (Manuel) who obviously has physical talent (size, speed, strength, and arm strength) and a good work-ethic to see if he can pull it together. You know for sure what you have with Orton and it isn't good enough in the long-run to get the team past the first round of the playoffs - and that is a BIG if that they could even get that far. Remember, even with Orton in, you still have a very porous OL, a bunch of very inexperienced WRs, an OK TE and an Offensive Coordinator who is still trying to find his way in the NFL.

Manuel and the OL is a bad combination

Buffalo Bills - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory for 54 years - proud tradition

The Bills' special teams were great today. Almost won the game by themselves. Blocked punt, kickoff return TD and good coverage. How about a few of the Danny Crossman haters weigh in tonight?

I think it is pretty early to be judging Gilmore. I thought that he played well as a rookie and then broke his arm last year. He couldn't strength train for what 8-10 weeks and then came back with that huge club on his hand. Why do some want to label guys as busts so early? Sometimes it just takes time and good health for some of these players to really perform well. Many here wanted to run Aaron Williams out of town and it turns out he is pretty damn good. McKelvin also played well last year after a few frustrating years.

And so could have every other team at least twice, several had 3 shots at him. I can guess, though, that it was patently obvious to you that the 5'11" QB that NC State told to take a hike after his Junior season would be a very good NFL QB.

EJ Manuel fake hand off and he Manuel runs for 5 yards.

We know that Orton is a bottom 1/3 of the league starter (or at least always was) so it isn't like they should be expecting that playing Orton would make them a playoff team. I think it is only good business to have EJ play the whole season - unless he is just truly awful. I may be in the minority, but I was encouraged by his rookie performance. 11 TR and 10 INTS - 4 of those INTS came in the Tampa debacle, so the 9 remaining games he had a TD to int ratio of 11-6 - not too bad for a rookie.

I have been an EJ defender and I still strongly believe it is WAY too early to give up on him. Still, he didn't play well the last two preseason games. I think it is AWFUL how the media has continually bashed him and whipped many fans into an anti-EJ frenzy.

+1 I know that EJ has not looked good in the preseason - nor has the entire offense. But I do believe that he needs some time - at least this year to see whether he can be a good NFL starter. I still believe it is ridiculous to declare after so few games that he is a bust. Those saying it can't wait for the next new QB - and shortly after the next guy gets here, they'll start running him out of town, too.

The point wasn't that EJ Manuel will be as good as Jim Kelly. It was that even HOFer Kelly went through growing pins and improved - hence it isn't unreasonable to expect that EJ Manuel needs on the job time before being finally judged - I don't think that there was any more implied than that.

Wait, in another thread several posted that the OL and QB play are independent. So you meant to say that a good OL can help a QB?

Does anyone remember that the IMMORTAL Jim Kelly threw 14 TDs and 19 INTs in his first year in Buffalo - AFTER 2 years of professional football in the USFL? Kelly was FANTASTIC and a major reason that the team made 4 SBs in a row - but immediately great was not the case.

Yep - Jim Kelly, whom we all immortalize, played 2 professional seasons in the USFL before coming to Buffalo. Yet, when he came to Buffalo in the NFL, he wasn't immediately great. My point is that it is WAY oversimplistic to blame the 2nd year QB for all offensive problems. SEE: SF and Colin Kaepernick in year 3 and RG3 (whom Washington gave up a TON of draft picks for). Neither of those guys are lighting it up this pre-season. It isn't just "pick a QB from college because it is a "new ERA" and most college QBs are NFL ready". BTW, the argument that there is somehow this "new school" of QBs coming out of college are somehow all ready to play in the NFL is nonsense, as far as I can see. Dan Marino dominated as a rookie in 1983, but most other young QBs struggled. Does anyone think that because Andrew Luck was good as a rookie that all rookie QBs should be good without experience?

yet Aaron Rodgers sat behind Brett Farve for 3 or more years and Drew Brees was allowed to leave SD as a FA after 4 years,,, Clearly, if the Packers expected Rogers to be great after 1 year, they'd have cut/traded him. SD didn't like Brees enough to prevent them from drafting Rivers and letting Brees - a likely HOF, go. To be clear, QB IS important and you need advanced knowledge from them. HOWEVER, few 3+ year veterans are going to listen to him. To wish away growing pains is NOT realistic - especially when the receivers are mostly young/inexperienced. Tell me, what receiver - WR or TE does EJ have that is so experienced that he can run the right route given the play call AND the defense' play?

In what organization is the guy who has been there 1 year the supposed leader? The whole premise of the QB must make the team HIS and be responsible for everything is flawed, in my humble opinion. There are zero business organizations where the guy they brought in 1 year ago is expected to be the CEO, or at least be the surrogate CEO. I don't care if they come from Harvard's Business School, no 1 year professional is expected to understand all of the nuances of a business (or an offense) and be put in charge of more experienced co-workers. Most guys who have been there 1 year and been part of that are still trying to find the bathroom and figure out who they talk to for most things... The idea that because Russell Wilson had success with the best defense in the NFL and a dominant running game, therefore any other young QB who hasn't had early success is a bust is ridiculous. As far as "old school vs new school", I'd suggest that a *very* few QBs have always come into the league ready to play. In 1983, Dan Marino nearly set NFL records - yet Steve Young came into the NFL with USFL professional experience and played so poorly for Tampa Bay that he was traded to SF where he eventually turned into an all-time great. JW: Your second year with your first employer - were you personally responsible for how bad that employer's product was? What could you REALLY have done about it? Let's say you were trying to find yourself as a writer/reporter and the Advertising Dept sucked - was that your fault? What could you do about it - write faster? How about if your Editor cut significant things from your writing - would that matter? Let's not over-simplify - a 23 yo is not going to tell older players what to do unless he is *TRUELY* spectacular.

+1 But, but, but the "experts" on WGR say it is all the QB...