NoSaint
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9 minutes ago, Magox said:
Anquan Boldin ran a 4.71 40 time
Here are what scouts, coaches and GM’s said about him before he was drafted:
Here are comments on Boldin from 16 talent evaluators leading up to his 2003 NFL draft:
Scout: Cocky. Catches everything.
Scout II: Tenacious after the catch.
Scout III: Great athletic ability but can’t run. Fits into a power, West Coast-offense. Third round.
Personnel director: Great quickness and RAC (run-after-catch). He looks like Andre Rison on tape. I knew his speed was suspect but his first step quickness is better than most. Excellent hands and a tough, tough guy.
Personnel director II: If he ran a 4.45, he’d be a mid-first rounder.
Wide receiver coach: Can’t run. But put his tapes on and all he does is make plays. Early third round if you need a possession guy.
Offensive coordinator: Like the way he plays. He’s a football player and doesn’t play slow.
Head coach: Good player but he’ll be lucky to go in the first day.
Head coach II: A winner. Didn’t run well but someone’s going to get a steal.
General manager: How many 6-0, 215-pound, 4.65 wide receivers make it? Third round.
General manager II: Second day. Can’t run. Good but not great receiver at Florida State.
General manager III: Just watch the tape. If you loved him in the fall, why hate him this winter based on his workout? Second round. He’s Hines Ward but more physical.
General manager IV: Everyone loves the way he plays. That’s got to account for something. May be the best of all of ‘em after the catch. Makes the first guy miss. Second round.
General manager IV: Bottom of the second round.
General manager VI: If you take him, put him in the slot and disregard his track time. Good player, good athlete. It’s tough to overlook his speed. But when push comes to shove and you start factoring in the football players, you’ve got to take him over some of these projects. I’d rather have him in the third round than reach for a (Taylor) Jacobs in the first.
I don’t think anyone’s saying Coleman couldn’t make an impact but boldin did have nearly double the production in his final year of college and was drafted to compliment an elite WR1
I think that Coleman would probably be a very good fit across from one of those guys.
unfortunately I think it’ll be hard for him to be one of those guys himself
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18 minutes ago, Big Turk said:
Well...this scouting report looks very similar in a lot of areas to Keon Coleman's:
Weaknesses
Play strength might need upgrade against physical cornerbacks.
Press rides on him for early stages of the route.
Has had issues securing catchable throws underneath.
Very average foot quickness and long speed.
Could struggle to knock athletic corners out of route phase.
Below-average separation burst out of breaks.
Drifts into route turns at times.
Lacks stride to open up and find a second gear.
Very little grit in his run blocking.
Anyone care to guess what WR scouting report this was for?
that report has minimal overlap -
7 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:
You don't get put in as punt returner if you don't have some natural athletic ability. The fact that he returned punts for FSU at his body size is a good sign IMO. This guy has football quickness and IQ.
you are a fan of a team that literally put back a punt catcherto speak in that absolute is silly
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2 minutes ago, Sweats said:
For anyone denouncing this pick, how are you so sure that he will be a failure and not work out for us?
Just curious as to why people think it's not a good pick.....
Speed?.......yes, he had the slowest 40, however, he had the fastest gauntlet and pass-arounds at the combine by any WR in the past 2 years
What else you got?
I think there’s a difference between denouncing it and declaring he’s going to be a failure. -
5 minutes ago, Mat68 said:
The big question mark is speed. He doesnt have linear speed like some others have. Im not going to get into game speed or GOS testing. Combine is public and everyone can access. His 10 yard split is above average. It is in line or better than guys that ran 4.4 or better. For route running and majority of concepts he will be fine.
again though, where do you see that on film?if claiming the exception status based on an underlying metric, where are the catches with him creating separation in the 10 yard split window? I think that would be the really interesting piece that would make a lot of people feel better.
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1 minute ago, dave mcbride said:
This report says his comp is Allen Robinson, who also ran a 4.6.
Robinson has had a couple of really big seasons: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RobiAl02.htm
Plenty of guys have been productive.
hell benjamin was productive for a stretch and likely would’ve had a solid career if motivated. gabe Davis isn’t a bum.
put a CB1 on him and it’s going to be a hard day for him unless they can develop his body or some techniques.
let him run around in zone or vs a shaky cb2 and he may feast a bit.
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1 minute ago, BuffaloBillyG said:
Concerns, sure.
Coleman isn't really going to be asked to run in a straight line on a track either. Guys often have a different play speed. But if we want to talk Combine numbers, during the cone drill he was listed at hitting 20.36mph...which was the fastest by any WR in 2 years at the Combine. I'd say that shows he's not exactly Jabba the Hutt running routes.
do you think he’s the fastest running routes?
where does this speed show up as separation on tape?
I think he will be a fine player, not a bum, but it’s outlier enough that it’s a valid question mark on his upside
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4 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:
Weird. Because I could swear for literally years I've seen posts right here on this forum with people wanting to trade for Mike Williams. Big strong WR. He ran a 4.53, BTW. Not blazing, either.
Now, I'm a person that has screamed for speed myself for years. Get me someone even Allen would have an issue over throwing. So I get it. But I'm willing to, I don't know, let the kid see the practice field and maybe a game or two before I condemn the choice because he doesn't have the skillset I wanted...which is what I see a lot of people doing here.
and 4.53 is “not running fast”4.61 is “running slow”
not everything below 4.4 is created equal and as you get into the 4.6 range and roll in not having a lot of separation on film it’s fair for people to have concerns.
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Just now, SCBills said:
What does that have to do with Franklin?Obviously teams view them as better prospects.
This is a deep WR Draft. It’s how we got Shakir in RD5. Deep draft and teams had questions about how to use him.
right, people are asking why he should’ve gone higher. You said game tape. I pointed out there’s a lot of good tape. That’s all.
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6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:
Just that he’s a really good athlete for one and also that there are short area-movement/quickness and leaping physical skills required to make a basketball team that is historically so good. Very few football players have them; otherwise they’d be on basketball teams. Basketball players are generally better all-around athletes than football players. A lot of people play football because they’re not good enough to make much smaller basketball teams; ask many receivers/corners and they’ll tell you basketball was their number one sport. Anyway, those skills point to a profile that is not remotely close to Kelvin Benjamin. To be fair, the long speed worries me too. But he clearly has some crazy acrobatic skills in tight spaces. A cut above.
heck, benjamin was productive for a stretch. But I agree that Coleman is athletic. I just don’t think he’s shown anything approaching nfl wr1 yet. If we were slotting him behind diggs I’d be happier, for instance. -
21 minutes ago, SCBills said:
Game tape. The guy can play and provides something we still need, which is speed on the outside.
Obviously there’s a reason he’s falling, but some of it could also be how deep this WR draft is. Even a team like the Bills, who came into this draft as WR needy as a team can be, has taken one WR.
Not every team is going to take a WR in the Draft and now guys like him are relying on teams to start double dipping.
do guys like worthy, Mitchell, leggette, Polk, etc… not have game tape? -
14 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:
The thing is, though, gabe davis, kelvin benjamin, and devin funchess aren’t guys who were ever capable of getting a roster spot on an historically elite D1 college basketball squad: https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/keon-coleman-1.html. Something to factor in.
that said: what are you factoring in from that?
sure, it’s an interesting story but he’s not a 6’7 guy that’s going to tight end and is a big body that can box out and go up like gates against a linebacker or safety
is it that he’s quick twitch and interesting off the line and in and out of breaks? If so, why didn’t we see more separation on tape?
he’s a big guy but contested catches are low percentage. That he’s good at a low percentage play is good in the red zone but not a focal point player
10 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:I really can’t wait to come look at this thread in 2 years.
I think he will be just good enough but not great enough that both sides say I told you so -
8 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:
Correct. And there's got to be something there beyond just a mediocre combine that is concerning teams. He's got great advanced stats and proves his skills on the field over multiple seasons.
frankly there are just a lot of guys that pass the eye test on the field this year.
To have the strikes of the lean frame plus combine flub just put him at the back of a crowded group. It’s nothing wildly crazy. -
7 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:
Gabe Davis also didn't fight for contested catches. He didn't fight for the football. That's part of the reason Allen's INT rate when targeting Davis was so much higher than everyone else on the team. It's almost like there's more to the WR position than "run fast".
Right but I think there’s a real concern with “run slow” stillbeing good at contested catches is great. It being because you face 3 times as many because you are not just average but below average speed is a concern in itself. Even being good at contested catches is a lower percentage throw than going to a guy that actually got open
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9 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:
Watching a little of his game now. He reminds me a little bit of Deandre Hopkins, actually. Hopkins ran a 4.57.
yea- Hopkins being drafted off a 1400 yard and 18 TD season though.
heck Coleman had almost all his 600 yards in 3 games ala gabe Davis. He’s a guy that can be neutralized
It’s entirely possible but at his specs, it’s going to be a major challenge. It’s not quite Josh Allen proving wrong math levels but it’s a real ceiling projection
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1 minute ago, Bockeye said:
Second rounders don’t start at all for NFL teams?? Is his a new rule?
I wouldn’t be shocked if they bring him along in a package role to get his feet weteven Kincaid rolled in slow until the Knox injury
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2 minutes ago, bigduke6 said:
people may look at Coleman as Benjamin, id rather look at him as possibly a Mike Evans. Evans isnt a burner either, but his big body is going to get him in the HoF eventually. ya it may be a stretch, but u cant teach size.
I would rather look at him as that too but that’s not likely to leave you happy.
he’s probably somewhere between gabe and mike Williams
Good enough to give you ammo to tell the haters to be quiet he didn’t bust but not a guy that is a WR1
4 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:I'll tell you what, if Day 3 starts with word that the Bills have traded a bunch of 5ths and next year's 2nd (keeping the pick we got for Diggs) for Courtland Sutton I will feel a whole lot better
I don’t think you even need the 2 for him-
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2 minutes ago, mannc said:
I had a feeling about a month ago that Coleman was going to be our pick, and I’m fine with it. He’s a great athlete, good size, an absolute baller. He’s going to be in the league a long time.
It’s becoming clear that—at least with their premium picks—the Bills want younger players, with no injury history and no character concerns. They are not going to gamble on guys like AD Mitchell or Jermaine Burton…just not who they are as a franchise.
I listed him as a likely target like a month ago too…. But then he kind of fell from my board. Early in the process and with diggs still I thought they’d want a bigger frame guy. When diggs left I started keying on locking in a true WR1 prototype more which I don’t think he has the gifts to be-
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3 minutes ago, racketmaster said:
In the consensus top 15 wrs, the Bills managed to take the one guy I was hoping they would avoid due to lack of speed and separation. He is a contested catch guy which is a hard way to make a living but who knows maybe Coleman can manage to make it work for him in the NFL. He is still young, so many he can learn to become a more savvy route runner in order to gain a little more separation from defenders.
You are really hoping that Brady can scheme space for him but it’ll be tough.
as a wr2 with Kincaid-cook-and a future WR1 it’s easier for him to pull it off.
it’s hard to picture that guy as still productive as a focal point for defensive coordinators though. Gabe Davis as our too slow deep threat that disappeared for weeks but could make plays
We will see if Coleman can run a more complete route tree and have a bit more suddenness in his breaks. Better hands will help but the speed is a potential limiting factor no doubt. There’s no way around acknowledging it as a real concern.
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1 hour ago, BillsFanForever19 said:
*Much* later? Uh, no. Maybe we could have moved down a pick or two. But even that wasn't a guarantee.
When it came to X's with Size that weren't a character question mark (ie Mitchell and Franklin), which is what we were obviously looking for - Coleman and Ja'Lynn Polk was all that was really left.
If you think we could have gotten Coleman "much later" when Ja'Lynn Polk went at Pick 37 - you're just being obtuse because you don't like the pick.
I think it’s hard for any of us to definitely say if he would’ve fallen another 15 spotsI don’t think he’s the guy others were racing to get - but you never really know. You likely would’ve posted identical avout Franklin had we taken him as a counterpoint
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6 hours ago, WMDman said:
I don’t think Franklin is a “dirt bag” I think they’re worried about him not living football so if he gets that big second contract he checks out, almost like Dareus
If that’s it he’s still tremendous value this deep you aren’t taking pick 90 off your board because he will check out after a tremendous first 3-4 years that earn a major pay day
it’s a deep draft at WR. He’s got a slight frame and showed some concerns at the combine. that’s a horrific combo for an early pick, yet alone in a stacked class where AD Mitchell talent is going late in the second
The mock drafters missed on that and overrated him so now it feels like he stands out when in reality he probably needed to be at the back of that second tier of guys that ran through to WR 12 or 15 or wherever it was the next ledge was.
either way a guy or two in that tier was going to go later then expected just with it being so deep and the mocks not having a lot of consensus on the order. From 5 to about 15 we saw darn near every ordering so WR 15 probably saw his name sneak into the first a few times unfairly raising expectations
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RB
edge
CB
WR
maybe a depth linebacker and late safety
wont be shocked by a practice squad qb if we take all the picks. Paying backup qb a lot is tough and if we could get a year or two cheap and possibly flip a young guy it wouldn’t be the worst swing-
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8 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:
Taking DT 4 over a WR with speed is…..
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not my favorite but not totally impracticalit’s the third round and knock on wood they added a heavily involved rotational piece and a big body. If it helps solve the annual over pay of mediocre big guys we can throw those funds at vets in other roles
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Just now, JMM said:
Um....Matt Milano has entered the chat...
fat karlos was too, right?!?-
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Rd 2, Pick 33: WR Keon Coleman, Florida State
in The Stadium Wall
Posted · Edited by NoSaint
Touche- I’ll take my medicine on that one!
though I will say that he also had a ton more production his senior year too
he checked every box but speed. Coleman has the speed flag plus having to develop more.