BADOLBILZ

Yeah keeping Whaley and staff when the coach had no intention of using their info in the draft process was ridiculous. What McDermott's role in that was we simply don't know. Did he not agree with keeping Whaley's staff but just grudgingly played along with The Pegs and then used Beane's Carolina draft info to make all of the selections instead? Seems unlikely. It was likely just another poorly executed transition by the folks at PSE. The dumpster was nuclear in the weeks around the Rex firing and McD hiring so things not making sense was totally in character. It was bizarre to say the least but McBeane gotta' own it. There was some initial denial from some fans that McD was using Carolina info on draft day and that Beane wasn't assured of the GM job in Buffalo.........but I don't think there is anyone left who thinks that the Beane decision wasn't made months before the hiring. You can't use that as an excuse to pass on Mahomes and Watson after the fact.

That is a surreal take. There literally were paths not taken that the Bills had first dibs on that other teams THEN took and have lead them to much greater results. I mean if you told me the moment that Rex was fired that the 2018 Rams, Chargers and Texans would be have 5-7 more wins than the 2018 Bills I would have assumed that the Bills must be drafting #1 overall. Even the Chiefs........they were NOT due for an ascension.......they were due for some decline and re-build after riding Alex Smith and an aging defense as far as they could take them. ALL of those teams.....and the Patriots and Eagles.......... owe a debt of gratitude to the Bills for their choices.

The Pegula's could also have actually tried to create some ALSO much craved continuity and retained Anthony Lynn...........who lead the Bills to their best offensive season in 25 years. He would have brought Gus Bradley........the original DC of the best defense of the 2000's in Seattle............who would have re-installed a 4-3 like McDermott but one that would have IMO been a better fit for guys like Gilmore and Darby........thus not necessitating giving them up for what amounted to Harrison Phillips. The bottom line is that the choices that were made with regard to the HC hire and not drafting a QB when everyone knew it should be the organization's top priority don't look good in retrospect. The Chargers took Lynn and have been a rousing success amid their organizational turmoil.... a legit SB contender. The Chiefs took Mahomes and he threw FIFTY TD pass(!) and were the best team in the AFC for most of last year. Your guy Watson had a historic start to his rookie year and is already a tremendous player........without him Houston probably has changed coaches and is in re-build mode instead of building on a talented roster. The Bills meanwhile, have been greatly outscored by opponents the past two seasons and have been pretty fortunate just to have the same record as they had under Rex. There have been some tremendous low points. The worst defensive 3 game stretch in team history. Peterman. A ton of blowout losses last year. Now hopefully that changes but as it stands they certainly don't look smart for those decisions yet.

Damn I thought you were going to give us a nugget about Norm Pollom or something. Always surprised me that he never became the Bills GM because Ralph was hiring and firing them pretty rapidly. But maybe he felt he was getting too old for the hassle at that point? Or did Ralph kinda' keep him at arms length because he was a Chuck Knox guy? Wasn't OK with long chats on the phone with Ralph maybe? Was he a Modrak-type who didn't like to be around the office in Buffalo enough? Regardless he had an admirable track record leading up the scouting departments in LA and Buffalo and certainly doesn't get enough credit for that 1985 draft. But your take that Kay Stephenson had the most say during that time period lends credibility to what Polian said. Stephenson didn't win but even as a teenager I always viewed him as a sympathetic character in a no-win situation more than as a bad coach so I was inclined to believe Polian. I'd love to see you share more of your details working in the Bills front office. It was decades ago and the key players are all gone so I don't see where the harm is.

Well you went to all this trouble.........at least give us your inside-the-building take on the hierarchy in March of 1985. Was it like this then?: 1. Pollom 2. Stephenson 3. Polian Inarguably(?) the greatest draft class in team history(2 HOF'ers plus Reich) and traded a pick that they knew was going to be used to select a potential franchise QB for a tremendous CB prospect whose career was tragically cut short.........and it all happened with the GM on the sideline.........gotta' be some interesting stories about how that went down.

High and low? The exaggeration is priceless. The Bills are a relatively BAD organization by any north american pro sports measure and it requires no high and low searching to illustrate that. As for your prior inability to separate your happiness from your fandom of a team.........that's a YOU problem. It's good for you that you've found a way to manage that illness(presumably without decapitation tactics) but attacking others for not needing to pretend that "everything is awesome" with an entertainment product is just another YOU problem that you unnecessarily expose others to. You're depression issue with fandom is probably just you being negatively charged so you are likely just going to find a place to continue shift that negativity. You're welcome for the free diagnosis. Perhaps your lack of true interest in the football aspect of being a Bills fan makes the losing less tolerable without playing pretend about the product. Learn more about the game so you can find entertainment and enjoyment even if the results on the field don't provide gratification 10 or more Sundays per year. Follow college football and the draft. As a Mess fan follow ALL of their organizational games every night. The live box score for the Mets and ALL of their minor league affiliates is literally one single click away. Get to know those players. One relatively common trait with most negatively charged apologists is a tepid interest in the details of the product. We all want to enjoy the journey......that's really what matters....some have to pretend everything is great to do that because they don't really care that much about the game........others can appreciate so many other aspects of the product that it's still entertaining if the results aren't there on the field.

I wasn't and it has no bearing on my point which was that Kay Stephenson kinda' took one for the team by telling the pro personnel director Polian that they shouldn't trade picks for vets even if their jobs were on the line if they didn't start winning right away. Polian didn't say he was in favor of it either but since he was the guy fielding those calls and negotiating pro personnel matters it was his job to present the options so it certainly makes sense. But why do you think Polian had so little power? You are utterly dismissive of him like he was some road scout. As I'm sure you remember the Bills were effectively operating without a GM during the entire draft process so the duo of Bill Polian and Norm Pollam had been assigned all of the GM's football related duties..........specifically the negotiation of trades and contracts.........which history reflects that Polian did the lion's share of. At worst they were the two guys at the top of the personnel department. Getting Bruce Smith signed and what was essentially the "Kosar trade" were significant moves and Polian has generally been seen as instrumental in negotiating those deals but you say he didn't have much pull with Detroit? Wouldn't put it past Polian to lie about those things but I'd like to hear the real story if you have it.

Yeah..........it was implied that Stephenson had the clout to greatly influence if not veto the personnel department. Polian made a very big point of the fact that Stephenson resisted moves to get better quick at the expense of draft picks even though they all felt that their employment with the team was tenuous at best, including Stephenson. Stephenson was fired in early October. So, yes you assumed I was saying something I was not. I agree that there is some revisionism in some of the retrospectives on those Bills teams though.............for example in "The Four Falls of Buffalo" a HUGE stink is made of Chuck Dickerson's comments about the Hogs prior to SB XXVI........it was basically "we lost because of that"....but the bigger story that week was actually Bruce Smith calling out Bills fans as racists because of some hate mail he had received. There was just a sh*tnado around that team prior to some of those SB's. And there was no mention of that or the drunken partying in SB weeks or Darryl Talley getting in a fight with Magic Johnson's body guard prior to SB XXVII whatsoever because it didn't fit the narrative that they were just tragic heroes. Easier to scapegoat a DL coach for them never winning a SB.

1. Polian's own words and I am sure most avid draft fans on here have seen them on "Caught in the Draft: 1985". 2. The "level of clout" aspect assumes that I said Polian had trades lined up and Stephenson nixed them. That's not what I said. What I said is what he said. I guess just watch the show. For a Bills historian it's a must watch......it was pretty much the "foundation" draft of the SB teams with Bruce Smith, Andre Reed, Frank Reich, Derrick Burroughs and a few other good players like Chris Burkett and Hal Garner(Steve Tasker was also selected by Houston in that draft). But it's mostly forgotten that the Bills were also right in the middle of the biggest real-time storyline of that draft: teams jockeying to draft Bernie Kosar and Kosar pulling out of the draft at the last minute using a loophole and Buffalo then trading the top pick in the supplemental draft(relinquishing their 1986 #1) to Cleveland so they could select him.

#3 is the key..........they are the first Bills regime to ever go all-in on a QB on draft day. First time they've ever used their first pick in round one or traded up above their first pick in round one for a QB. Even if they fail miserably otherwise, if Allen emerges as a great QB that should be remembered in the same way that Kay Stephenson should be appreciated for insisting on Bill Polian not trading away the draft picks that built the eventual SB teams to save their jobs when Polian suggested it to him. The rest of your list is just basic "regime that hasn't fallen entirely out of favor yet" talk and is the proverbial "six of one/ half dozen of another" stack of positives(some highly subjective in nature) that nearly every regime has. If Allen turns into a franchise QB I will be patting McBeane on the back long after most of you are giving them the "idiot" treatment that former genius/darlings like Whaley get now.

Yeah that was hilarious how they jumped on that war vet who was giving a former Bill.........who gave outstanding effort and pro bowl production and nothing but love to the fanbase.........the benefit of the doubt regarding dealing with grief and mental illness. What a cool bunch of well adjusted dudes! But they won't be laughing when Ted Williams is regenerated from his decapitated frozen head and he hits .400 again. Especially not Gugnutz cuz Williams will be eligible for free agency immediately and it'll be the Yanks not his Flushing Toilets.

Yeah it was a just a traditional TBD spearing contest. Funny how everyone suddenly gets spinal stenosis after I challenge them.?

Well if nothing else at least Cripple Creep posted something non-sexual on the football board for a change. ?

Yeah this isn't news but it used to be that the teams needed the press to generate interest and fill seats...........now the press needs the access just to keep their jobs and that's only going to continue to decrease the objectivity of local content. The chummier the local press gets with the team the less real inside info we will get too..........it'll be like that Lakers sh*t this past week...........the details covered up for months and all hitting the fan long after-the-fact.

Do you think he could be selectively ignoring certain story inconsistencies because he like's his sources or how they treat him as opposed to their predecessors? It's human nature. I believe JW has taken issue with the notion that Bills fans can't "afford" TBN subs before. It was him or someone else in the media that was here(so probably him). I'm pretty protective of Bills fans versus non-fans like John so I am standing by the reason for non-subs primarily being that darn insurmountable cost.

Oh ok I thought I made some points that were reasonable but I guess not. In other indisputable factoid news Bills fans don't subscribe to TBN because they can't "afford" it.

It is blasphemous to invoke the Troupacabra without a sacrifice!

Don't forget Danny Crosshairs............his coaching has been a fireable offense nearly every season since he's been a ST coach in the NFL and his seat always comes pre-heated at his next job by his resume........and yet McD held onto him for two years.

You gotta' Billieve!:

I'm not sure anyone who repeats that the team couldn't "afford" a player that they simply "chose" not to pursue more aggressively or sign is being a straight shooter. And saying something like Incognito wasn't pressured to take a pay cut.............eh.........I mean in what world, right? That's the problem in this thread............he wasn't shooting straight he was advancing excuses with irrational answers...........I guess for his sources? It's OK to admit that front offices make a lot of mistakes...............and maybe what ultimately scares fans into buying such irrational takes is the fear that there isn't an entirely coherent plan. For some reason A LOT of people think that all that matters is that there is this master plan in place that is being deftly executed.............and when you aren't winning that requires the making of A LOT of excuses. I don't think there is a 3 year plan in the NFL that actually goes even close to the original design. There is a name for plans that go smoothly.........ONE YEAR plans. What we have here in McBeane are a couple first timers who have been preparing for these jobs for a long time but have spent as much time BUYING time and making a myriad of questionable moves as they have advancing the on-field product. It's not been a grand success to this point and while the LA teams that had less talent/success than Buffalo at the time of McD's hiring have risen to SB contender status the McBeane method has us at the exact same record that Rex did in his two years. My point in it all is that IT'S OK to be skeptical in the absence of success. It is. They don't deserve the benefit of having a pile of excuses advanced for them.

As soon as someone jumps to the "you aren't a real fan" button you can rest assured they are offended.

For some reason there is a faction of people who think that false starts and holding on offense aren't undisciplined penalties but that their defensive versions are. It's simply not the case. The Raiders were the best team in the AFC over a two decade stretch and basically lead the league in penalties every year. They were mostly penalties of aggression and such a small percentage were called that playing that style BENEFITTED them. The Bills don't play that way..........they aren't imposing their will on anyone..........they try to play fundamentally sound field-position football and win the turnover battle and let the chips fall where they may..............which is why being the 5th most penalized yardage team in football was a very poor turn of events. As you said........the excuses for near bottom of the league performance in any significant area are over now.........nobody gets 4 comfortable years to re-build an NFL team. They need to start showing tangible progress. Fortunately there is a lot of room for that. Evening up the woeful point differential of the past two seasons might even help buy him more time if they can't emerge as a contender.

It was pretty much just JW evading detail for things that he said. That's his prerogative but why even go the opinion route if you don't want to expand on it? Just throw it on the pile with the other "they are good and that's all I really gotta' say about that" takes.

JW I apologize if I offended you with my pretty reasonable/debatable responses. Here's a less friendly take..........I absolutely take offense to your misuse the language to IMO slant a take from your sources. I also understand that the landscape for journalists has been changing and there is no financial/career advantage in you giving anything less than maximum benefit of the doubt to the organization you are paid to cover. We "couldn't afford to pay Robert Woods $8M" looks a lot better to the organization than "we were pretty certain he wasn't worth $8M" and then having him go put up 2K yards in his first two years in LA. Originally I thought maybe you were just eased into that mindset by a very media friendly GM.............unfortunately my opinion has changed. It's unfortunate when your local AP rep can't even be objective but I guess that's the way it is. Good day sir!

You gotta' admit his "Only Beyonce Can Judge Me" tat is pretty sweet.