Garranimal

Ok wait, can i get an official TSW ruling here.....does college history matter or doesn't it? I mean if we are discussing a great college QB we don't like, his stats don't matter....but in this conversation....its the opposite..... Can we have an official opinion?

So i should take that to mean that Jamies Winston will suck in the NFL?

Ok....so you basically are an ACC guy....because not one of those teams is a decent team other than Florida that year (who drubbed them pretty soundly). The rest are ACC little sisters of the poor....

Great, bring in Tebow! A quick question....what quality teams did he play his senior year? Do tell? You are talking about racking up yards against the ACC....which is like saying I scored with a chick i met in a house of ill-repute (chippewa street?).

Ah, the old "upside" and "highest ceiling" argument.....i love when people talk about bigfoot and nessie!

By the standard, yes....but he is also good and has one of those shiny rings. did he have another college career i am unaware of?

................

At what? Rape? Having your campus police act like the "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" monkeys? Having alumni in the state attorney's office sweep your messed up bi-sexual date rape lifestyle under the rug? Yes, Winston is better at all of those things....I would agree. Manziel was crucified for being a rich brat, Winston was glorified for raping a "skank".....American society as it now exists.

See here is the problem. It isn't just the 8 games and one season....it is the concept that he never showed anything in college that warranted the belief that he could be a franchise QB. What the 8 games have done is just strengthen the concern that what you are seeing is more of the same of what he did at FSU but against real competition.

the dude takes plays off, had some conditioning issues and even had had the HBC questioning his desire to play football....those are questions. Is he a great player, no doubt, might he have some desire and internal drive issues....possibly maybe. With the new rook salary cap, he is worth the risk because teams don't have to give up 50mil+ to take a test drive.

I think a lot of the discussion in this thread makes sense on both sides....but to use Cam Newton as a comparison is not good for EJ at all. Let's not forget that Cam broke or came close to breaking a ton of rookie records for important things like yardage, 300 yard games and TDs. EJ has not even had a 300 yard game yet....so other than being tall, weight and skin color there isn't much in the way of a comparison.

I am trying to figure out how there are not questions about Clowney???? The guy has great plays and then disappears....i think he is a special player, but certainly not an unquestioned #1 overall. And i have a very hard time seeing Manziel dropping to #12....

David Cutcliffe.....he is doing a hell of a lot with very little. ...

And all of those guys were better than EJ....in college....by a lot!

Far better than EJ (against SEC and/or ACC defenses) and he did it week in and week out.

That is absolutely not true. The kids who are invited to the combine are the ones who have shown tangible evidence that they may have skills that translate at the NFL level. Furthermore, every single test given at the combine is intended to give another set of real data points that supposedly correlate to being able to play football in the NFL. If people are claiming that EJ had more upside because of some of these types of numbers....please tell me what those numbers are? I, on the other hand, am arguing that his performance at FSU would not lead anyone to believe he was going to suddenly become a franchise QB at the NFL level. Ultimately, what i am hoping is that the Bills FO hedges their long shot gamble with another QB who grades out more ready for the game played in the NFL today. The Eagles did everything they possibly could to make Mike Vick a success, but they still drafted Nick Foles as insurance. Before EJ Manuel ever became a Buffalo Bill i doubted his ability to play QB in the NFL, the fact that my team drafted him doesn't mean i shut off my intellect and blindly believe he will succeed. So as a fan of the Bills, i hope they draft a player who will become our next franchise QB.....meanwhile, i have seen nothing from EJ that would even begin to change my mind......if that happens....i will admit i was wrong.

Charles Schwab? He could beef up everyone's portfolio.

31-21 them. hiccup!

Very hard to play the what-if game with Rodgers because it is just as possible that had he started from day one, he would have out played favre in short order. They are very different QBs with very different styles and there is no secret that B. Favre wanted no part of helping to groom his replacement. The "sitting on the bench and learning argument" is a red herring in my opinion because there will never be any way to document whether it is better or worse. It didn't matter for Marino, Elway or Kelly. My mind was skeptical when people on this board were starting to fall in love with EJ before the draft. I am still skeptical and have yet to see a reason from college to now why he was drafted as a franchise QB. EJ was not a college stand out.....and has really just given more of the same of what most saw of him at FSU. I can remember sitting with a friend at Doak Campbell who kept screaming (yeah, he is one of those college fans) that if EJ did that "stupid bleeping spin move for a sack one more time, he was going to cut off his donations to FSU". EJ was not particularly held in high regard by the FSU fans themselves......and many feel more than vindicatedt about the fact that J. Winston has come in and done in one season what EJ could never come close to doing.

I was talking more about guys like mayock, mcshay and the hair along with all of the scouting services.

I believe having seen Peyton play several times in college that everyone knew he already had a skill set that translated to the NFL. There wasn't any need to talk about 'upside' as his skills and abilities had been clearly demonstrated in college. People talked about Peyton (and Ryan Leaf) in the same terms they used for Andrew Luck.....he was a largely finished product ready for the next level. There wasn't any talk about long term project or need for development. The point i am making is that EJ has not significantly outplayed Thad and some believe not at all, but his supporters continually trot out the he had the most upside of any QB in the draft....and my point remains.....based on what? Size? Dan McGuire was like 9 ft tall coming out of college....so what? EJ had no buzz around him his entire senior year and then suddenly around the draft, when no real clear sure thing QB prospect emerged, he was defaulted as the best QB in the draft.

No, actually it isn't, because most teams make draft picks based on tangible, measurable results. I have asked before and i will ask again, what is EJ's defining game in college, the Florida game where he was knocked silly and lost huge? That is one defining moment. The Florida game he won in 2011 with 46% completions and 65 total passing yards? In 2011, EJ put up two....count them, two 300 yard games....in college, at FSU.....against the ACC....oh wait, it was one game against the ACC (NC State) and the other against Charleston Southern. By comparison, Jameis Winston had 7 300+ yard games as a freshman.

Ok, i got it....it is just a huge stinking pile of opinion? Correct? Now, who's opinion is the best pile to eat from? Because i can tell you the guys that give their opinions about upside, never ever ever look back or feel bad about being slightly right, slightly wrong....or dead wrong. So you can quote me all of the pre-draft opinions that you want, it still doesn't make "upside" a real thing.....its a media term no different than 'intangibles'....

Talk about a leap of faith.....trusting this organization to make good personnel decisions is like expecting the AD at Tennessee to hire a good coach.

Scouts? Boy Scouts? Eagle Scouts?