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Posts posted by Alphadawg7
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1 minute ago, NoSaint said:
I remember jeudy ruggs and lamb as the best in that class. I do not recall them being considered generational prospects. We are talking picks 12, 15 and 17.How many Super Bowls did generational talents of Moss, Megatron, Fitzgerald, and Julio win?
And in that draft, Jeudy, Lambn, and Ruggs were considered some of the best WR's to come out in a while and that was considered one of the best WR drafts heading into it in recent times with them being in a class of their own. More importantly, people wanted to mortgage a ton of picks to go get one, even more than we paid for Diggs...which would have been a mistake when none of them were as good as the guys still on the board at our original pick nor as good as Diggs was for us the past 4 years.
Tond Mandarich was considered maybe the greatest prospect of all time of almost any position like he was destined for the HOF. He was not that in the NFL. I can think of a long list of "generational" talents in drafts that either went on to have solid, mediocre, or flat out bust careers. It isn't a sure thing.
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47 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:
I could debate the 49ers traded up in 1985 to get Jerry Rice, granted they were the defending Super Bowl champs. Yet he definitely helped them win 3 Super Bowls. Yet I agree I'm not one that feels we have to trade up. The reason people are clamoring for this draft at appears to have not just the top 3 guys and question marks but you can still get an above average WR if get the 6th or 7th guy off the board.
Good find, and I am aware of this one, but its not really an example for a couple reasons, one of which you already stated.
- As you already said, they were already Super Bowl champions, he was a luxury add to a SB Championship team, not a missing piece.
- All the Niners netted in the trade was a loss of one 2nd round pick. The other compensation was just a swap of third rounders, so slight trade down. It doesn't meet the multiple premium picks criteria.
But yes, he was a cornerstone moving forward, but those Fortyniner teams were stacked on both sides of the ball including what for periods of time were considered the GOAT at QB, WR, and S and a bunch of all time greats on both sides of the ball.
However, a more relevant SF example is when 10 years later Bill Walsh and the Niners traded up to number 10 to draft JJ Stokes, calling him "the next Jerry Rice" and traded away 2 firsts, a 3rd and a 4th rounder to do so just for him to be a bust. In fact, the actual heir to Rice would be none other than Terrell Owens who they acquired in the 3rd round the very next draft without having to trade anything to get him.
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Can't wait to see Diggs after losing to the Bills in the playoffs standing on the field in Buffalo watching the Bills and fans celebrate and then having to watching Josh hoist the Lombardi and SB MVP trophies a few weeks later.
I got nothing personal against Diggs, and wish him continued success when not playing us, but I will enjoy beating him after he lost faith in Buffalo and Josh Allen to get there.
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29 minutes ago, Cray51 said:
I understand what you are trying to say, but every Super Bowl winning team in the last 5 years HAS had a top 10 receiving threat in that season (Kelce, Kupp, Kelce, Evans, Hill)
Difference though is that those teams had better overall rosters because they didn't blow multiple premium picks and insane cap space to get them. And Kelce this year was no where near top 5, he was looking shot a chunk of the year and people were surprised he didn't retire. Not sure Kelce was even top 5 the year before...at his position yes, but he isn't better than 5 of the best receivers in the game. Evans was not on most peoples top 5 list either, nor was Hill when they won, but easily top 10 so that is splitting hairs much like Kelce.
29 minutes ago, Cray51 said:and, no team that has made the Super Bowl in the last 5 seasons has had a little surrounding talent then what the bills have right now without Diggs.
the situation is clear. WR room is lacking talent on this team, and there are 3 high end potential top end #1 WR prospects in this draft.
No one disagrees we need to add a WR, but the talent is rich and deep in this draft. Next year we have a first and 2 second round picks that could really bolster this team, to give them up sets us back elsewhere. So the question is, is the cost to do so offset the loss of assets? And in a draft this good for WR, I don't see it.
Plus...we had a top 5 WR on this team for 4 years straight, arguably top 3 for 2+ of those years and we haven't made it out of 2nd round in 3 straight seasons. So its pretty clear, top 5 WR is not our missing piece or we would have won a SB already.
29 minutes ago, Cray51 said:in addition, the concern of not being able to field a strong roster if we mortgage picks to move up is in my opinion a controllable risk. One of Beane’s best abilities is to utilize several avenues to field NFL capable talent across the field. One of his big criticisms? Bringing in superstar talent.
does Beane moving up for a top end WR guarantee any success? No, of course not. But if he does move up does it give us more autonomy in selecting the right WR to potentially put us to the promise land? Yes it does.
we will have to see what happens on draft day
Im not gonna throw a fit if we move up and get one of the big 3, all of them would be exciting. But I do not think its a sound investment in a draft that is probably the best WR draft in NFL history. I would rather keep our picks next year and use our 1st and 2nd on 2 WR's doubling our chances than give up 2 firsts and 2 seconds to get one.
Remember Jeudy, Ruggs, and Lamb draft as the big 3 can't miss guys? Only one of them panned out and the best WR in that draft was Jefferson and then Higgins until Lamb made a case finally in year 4 to be the 2nd best WR out of tha draft. No guarantees the big 3 end up being the be best WR's to come out of this draft even. Tons of high ceiling players in it.
23 minutes ago, uticaclub said:I do too. We can’t find a Kelce so we might as well load up on quality WRs
We may have already found a Kelce...you forget about Dalton Kincaid?
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2 minutes ago, FireChans said:
How many WR’s drafted in picks 15 -32 have made the Super Bowl?
do you think there’s any correlation between players drafted by playoff or fringe playing teams and eventually making a Super Bowl vs players drafted by a crappy team not making it?
Not that many, go look for yourself.
And again, I am also talking teams who are good teams making a move to go get a Tyreek Hill, Davante Adams, DeAndre Hopkins, Stefon Diggs who are top tier WR1 and after all they spent to get them and pay them got ZERO Super Bowls. Or a team spending big to trade up and get a Julio Jones. So not, its not a correlation of just bad teams, I am specifically stating teams that have gone and spent big thinking a WR gets them over the hump to ultimately win nothing of importance.
I am happy to be wrong about this, so if you can find even one example of a team that won a Super Bowl after any of the following scenarios, I will glady adjust my 0% success rate and 100% fail rate statements:
- Acquired for top dollar in Free Agency
- Acquired via trade for premium draft capital (like Adams, Hill, Diggs, etc)
- Acquired through an expensive trade up trade in a draft (like a Julio, Watkins, etc)
Find me any example that got a team over the hump to put hardware in their case for going all in on a WR and I will change my tune. Don't even need multiple examples, just asking for one that maybe I missed, which is possible.
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25 minutes ago, uticaclub said:
But they got to the Super Bowl; we had a one conference championship appearance with Diggs, Beasley, Brown & Sanders
Losing 2nd or losing 8th is still losing. Who cares. I want to win.
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4 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:
I keep reading about Julio Jones and the big trade-up to get him for the QB Matt Ryan led Falcons in 2011. The Falcons didn't even get to an SB until 2016, 5 years after that trade, and even then... they lost to the NE Patriots in that game. The Falcons that SB season also had Devonta Freeman at RB in a balanced offense.
After that trade for Julio Jones, Atlanta lost the WildCard game that season and lost in the conference championship to the 49ers after a 13-3 season. The Falcons didn't even make the playoffs with WR Julio Jones in 2013-2014-2015 going 4-12, 6-10 and 8-8.
Lots of folks saying that the reason for the declining years was because of the resources spent on that stud WR. And that HC Mike Smith was canned along the way in 2015, the GM a bit later in 2020.
Let's look at the team that beat the Falcons in that Super Bowl, the NE Patriots. Yes, they had Tom Brady at QB all those SB years. But who else did they have? SB in 2001 with WR Troy Brown. The funny thing with that 2001 season was the only 1000-yard season Troy Brown had in his 15 seasons with NE. They also had WR Randy Moss in 2007-2008-2009 and he had 3 1000-yard seasons in NE and yet they made one SB in 2007 only to lose it and didn't make it in the next two seasons with Moss.
So, I'm thinking that these stud superstar WRs don't always make a team an SB contender. Calvin Johnson, 2007 2015. Megatron, he ever make a SB? Larry Fitzgerald for Arizona 2004-2020. He made it to one SB and lost it. Steve Largent, Seattle 1976-1989 with 8, 1000-yard seasons.
I look at the NE Patriots who run the very same offensive scheme as the current Buffalo Bills (Erhardt-Perkins). So what did they do so well that got them to so many SBs and wins? They usually played great defense with Ole Bill as the HC. They moved the chains with Troy Brown, Wess Welker, and Julian Edelman, and when they went to the red zone they had a big TE in Rob Gronkowski. Buffalo has their "chain movers" in Shakir, Knox, and Dalton Kincade.
This is what I have been saying. The last 20 years, only one SB team had a WR1 taken in the top 15 picks. There has never been any team in NFL history to make a huge investment to acquire a WR via trading for a proven one or trading up to draft one and win a SB. There isn't even a team who signed an expensive one in FA that won a SB.
Making a large investment in a WR via draft picks or free agency spending has a 0% success rate...aka 100% fail rate...in taking a team and getting them over the hump to win a Super Bowl.
Look at what Miami paid for Tyreek Hill who has been arguably the best WR in the NFL (him or Jefferson) the past 2 years and Miami can't even win their division with a 4 game lead late in the season and has 0 playoff wins. Or look at Raiders an Davante Adams. Even NE when they had Moss actually LOST in the Super Bowl, although they didn't invest a lot to get him.
Now go look at the top 5 WR's in the NFL...more often than not, they are not on teams in the Super Bowl, let alone winning it.
This board has had an unhealthy obsession with WR as if not having the best WR's is the reason we lose. We lost in 2020 because we were the worst team on the field in that game. We lost in 2021 because of our defense. We lost in 2022 because we got dominated in the trenches and couldn't run the ball in bad elements. We lost in 2023 because we had no Linebackers and KC abused that mismatch and we couldn't even get Mahomes dirty.
We have never been eliminated because we didn't have enough weapons. Our stable of weapons the last 4 years is better than a lot of Super Bowl winning teams offensive stables. We had a top 5, arguably top 3, WR for the past 4 seasons and we have lost in the 2nd round 3 straight seasons.
I mean, I want a WR early in this draft too, we all do. But this notion we must mortgage the farm to go get one has 0 examples of ever working and weakens a cap strapped team from building the overall roster. I mean next year, we have a first and 2 seconds to keep adding more ammo to this team, and people want to give it away like sticks of gum. Not to mention, this is maybe the best WR draft in history, even less need to make a major move.
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2 minutes ago, uticaclub said:
I think 9ers & Eagles both had elite WRs the last 2 years
And both lost.
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6 minutes ago, Virgil said:
I plan to make that an option when the Bills hit the clock, because the poll takes more than 8 hours. That will give people plenty of time to make their poll selections, while I also garner trade interest. Then, once the poll is done, I can work through the trade offers
But, if you start the poll you won't know what trades would be available to include in the poll. So if you have people get you the offers ahead of time, you can include them at the start of the poll
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50 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:
Ok, np. But since you wrote the bolded, it seems that I wasn't clear enough.
What I mean is that once Bills are on the clock, you wouldn't start the poll immediately, but give all other GMs a chance to send their offers (within an hour or so). If there was any reasonable offer, you would include in the poll.
So the poll would be very specific, something like
- player A
- player B, etc
- trade down with team X (pick 28 for picks Y and Z)
40 minutes ago, Virgil said:Not a bad idea. Depending on how we are progressing in the draft, we can maybe try that.
Or, make the poll with one of the options be a trade back. If we don't a trade back, then we just select the player who got the most votes
Here is what I think you could do to help from it taking too long...in fact, this would result in the poll not taking any longer than before.
Put a message out to all of the managers here right now that if any of them have interest in making a trade up with the Bills for any player they need to submit that BEFORE the Bills are on the clock to the trade committee (Myself and Virgil). So they can start looking and sending them into to me and Virgil now.
They are free to put any stipulations on it as in "We offer picks X and Y for Bills pick 28, but ONLY if player X is there (or multiple players if there is more than 1 they would trade up for)".
If the trade meets the requirements of an approvable trade, we will mark it as an tentatively approved as an option to include in a poll if said players are on the board at 28.
Then when we get to 28, you already have ALL of your trade down offers and we will know which ones are alive and which ones are dead because X player(s) were not there. Once the Bills are on the clock, the trades are locked and there is no pulling out of the deal by the other GM if the trade met all the criteria.
If any trades are alive, you immediately put the TSW poll up with option to select whatever players are in play for us at 28 and include all the trade down offers still alive, if any, as well in the poll.
So the poll is the same poll it always is and will not take any additional time. Who we would take in the trade down is not part of the vote as the rest of the draft still needs to play out until what would be our pick, so no need to include who we might take, people can guess on that themselves when weighing the option to trade back vs who we could take at 28.
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4 minutes ago, Pete said:
I share the same concerns about Worthy. I have at least 6 WR rated higher. But Bills need speed. Josh has been looking for a younger, faster John Brown. Worthy is also a Punt Returner. With the new rules, returners are even more important. We have a need for returners, and a need for speed. If we draft Worthy, we must draft a tall WR as well IMO
Honestly, if we take Worthy I guarantee the new KO rules helped put them over the top as that absolutely boosts his value and why I have warmed up some to him where I previously had him around 8th or 9th on my WR board just over the size concerns I brought up above.
And if we do take him, I have a feeling Beane may make a move to go get someone like Tez Walker in the third by trading back up there with some of our extra picks.
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14 minutes ago, stinky finger said:
Thereby leaving those also wanting him with Penix envy. 😑
Well played and your screen name makes it better lmao
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Xavier Worthy posted on Instagram yesterday that he was in Buffalo for what appears a pre-draft visit.
Love his speed, but I am concerned about his durability with that slender frame and also concerned how effective he would be in bad weather when speed is negated and play gets a lot more physical.
So not sure how much sense he makes as a WR1 for Buffalo, but I can see why they would have him in for a visit as that speed is nuts.
Seen a lot of Tyreek Hill talk with Worthy, but they really are not at all similar outside straight line speed. Hill is a dawg down field who is physical despite being short, but is very strong. Worthy is very slender, and I am concerned about if he will have the strength to beat press coverage or step up when the weather and elements negate the speed factor late in the season and playoffs in Buffalo.
But he is intriguing with that 4.2 speed.
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8 hours ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:
The Saints have agreed to a trade with Eagles. There are multiple targets still on the board for our positions of need at tackle, cornerback and receiver.
Saints trade pick 14(1100)
Eagles trade pick 21(780) and pick 50(400)
the Eagles and @Logic are on the clock
4 hours ago, Virgil said:Who approved the trade?
It looks fine to me, but @Logic did you sign off on this?
As a reminder, all trades need to be approved first in a PM with myself, Alphadawg7, and both GM's involved in the trade
4 hours ago, Logic said:
I did sign off on it last night, yes sir.
Made sure the values matched and submitted the offer. It was fairly late at night and I headed off to bed. Figured it wouldn't get dealt with/submitted 'til morning. Apologies for the unintentional breach of protocol. I think some wires just got crossed.
I will await your word as to whether I should proceed with making my pick.Trade stands, but since neither @Virgil or myself were notified, a stiff penalty has been enacted. $100 needs to be sent via Venmo to myself by the owners, and then the participating GM's must take @Virgil to Tiffany's Cabaret Gentleman's Club next Wednseday for Lumpy Hump Day daytime happy hour and provide no less than 3 flap dances and 3 rounds of Fireball double shots. Just no, if @Virgil doesn't leave there itchy, sticky, or smelling bad, you didn't do enough and further sanctions may be applied.
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Im all for a red version, but I also wouldn't mind seeing some sick new design on it to make it more than just bringing an old one back. I have seen quite a few bad a** ones over the years people have mocked up.
Do Zomething Different - yup...that was a Zima reference lol
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12 hours ago, uticaclub said:
He has little to no value at this point, better to keep him and see if he turns the corner for us.
Not true, he absolutely has value. You all said nobody would trade for Tyrod and we got the first pick in the 3rd for him.
Personally, I think Elam still has value to the team and could come in a compete to start again with him being healthy, Tre being gone, and Benford coming off injury.
But if we did trade him, he would absolutely have value especially to a team who plays a style of defense that better fits his skill set. He was a first round pick on a team that plays a different style than his strengths were, that won’t kill his value.
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3 hours ago, DJB said:
Found this so I posted it on X.
This doesn’t feel accurate. For example, there is no Ladd McConkey who has publicly stated he’s met with the Bills now multiple times, at least 3 which would put him ahead of several players on this list.- 2
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2 hours ago, Sharky7337 said:
Matt Milano.
The all pro best LB on the roster, whos replacement was already drafted. Would it be crazy for them to trade him now on an attempt to move up? Possibly.
But he has had some availability issues over the years. And the negative is him coming off a knee injury, but otherwise this would be a perfect sell high moment.
If a team was willing, it would be perhaps the best way to move up without sacrificing a boatload of future picks
Discuss
You realize “April Fools” isn’t a month long thing right?- 1
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RIP? F this guy. Rest in paying for your crimes.
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26 minutes ago, Virgil said:
While there is debate over what future picks are worth, my math shows that, to get to 6, the Bills would have needed to trade:
2024 - Picks 1, 2, 4, and 4
2025 - Pick 1, 2, and 2
I just don't see that happening in any scenario and I haven't seen anyone in polls or messages that would have been okay with that.
Now, at number 9, where the value is 300 less, maybe.....
That is some Ricky Williams trade grossness ha. I would buy a billboard to fire Beane if he traded that much for a WR...I would be furious if he traded that much to get a QB even unless it was like the greatest QB prospect the world has ever seen.
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4 hours ago, ngbills said:
Bills fans can be pretty embarrassing. It is ridiculous to question Diggs commitment and work ethic. He was one of the hardest workers on this team. He wants to win. Now the story is he is a cancer and sucked and was a problem.
Facts are simple...Diggs is NOT a me first WR Diva who is upset about stats. He is a highly driven competitor who is obsessed with winning a Super Bowl before his time is done. He had his best chances over the past 4 years of his career here and the Bills just kept coming up short. He wears this emotion for winning on his sleeve and his biggest character flaw is caring too much about winning, if you can call that a flaw.
Bottom line, the past 2 seasons waned Diggs faith and confidence that this team was capable of getting over the hump. In fact, it was clear to anyone paying attention the Bills would have to face a mini rebuild/retool this year for cap reasons and have a hefty amount of roster turnover and could initially take a step back before it could try and step back into the championship window.
Diggs, approaching 31, knows his time to help a team win a title is closing. He saw a team like the Texans as an ascending team that has a cheap rookie QB contract and could load up elsewhere to try and win in the short term. For him, that is a more attractive situation.
For the Bills...they are able to shed a big contract of player about to be 31 and go into maybe the best WR draft in history to find a new WR1 to anchor on a rookie deal for the next 4 to 5 years of Allens prime. More importantly, they shed the "cloud" that followed Diggs, his teammates, the staff, etc around here cast by the media always hounding everyone in every interview about Diggs state of happiness, him and Josh relationship, etc all trying to get a click bait story. Furthermore, Josh and Brady no longer have that back of the mind pressure to get Diggs so many targets either. The focus can be on young talent and spreading the ball around and also getting Cook his touches.
This should be seen as a win win by both Diggs and the Bills. Had the Bills waited another year, best they would have gotten is a 4th round pick too. This was a sell high move by the Bills and I think this team will be a better team moving forward offensively and have more fun again. Just like I think Diggs will feel refreshed and fired up at a new opportunity to go get a ring.
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6 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:
Rome would have been the pick there in that situation if a trade back couldn't happen. Most likely would have seen me with Rome and then try and trade up into the backend of 1st or high in round 2 if Penix was there to combine the 2.
So no matter what, this draft was going QB picks 1-3 then MHJ, Nabers, Odunze for picks 4-6. Interesting
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2 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:
With the 4th pick of the NFL Draft, the New York Giants select: MARVIN HARRISON JR, WR, OHIO ST.
Not a QB?
Nope. Here's the thing. We need playmakers. We let Saquon walk. We have a few role players at WR. And we have an aging TE that isn't even sure if he's playing next year. This offense isn't a QB away. Our best playmaker was Motor Singletary.
We liked all of the "Big 3 WRs" on the board but would much rather give up a little extra to dictate who we take rather than have the choice made for us. Our jobs are on the line.
Enter Harrison. Yes, he chose to not workout at the Combine or his Pro Day. But he's been working on being "season ready" in place of the underwear games of an NFL recruits off season. Coming from remarkable NFL WR bloodlines, this explosive WR is ready to hit the ground running (and catching) on Day 1.
@TOboyand the Los Angeles Chargers are on the clock.
Curious...lets say I don't swap 4th and 6th picks with you...and I instead take MHJ at 4 just like you did. So that means Chargers still go Nabers as the board is still the same for them.
What would you have done at 6 in that case? Would you have taken Odunze at 6...McCarthy...or another position all together?
Superstar WR? The Big Three
in The Stadium Wall
Posted · Edited by Alphadawg7
Doesn’t have anything to do with the point of what I said about spending a lot of assets to get a WR. But you know that already cuz we have discussed it multiple times now in multiple threads.
The comment was about just because they are generational talents at WR doesn’t mean it’s worth weakening the roster elsewhere to go get one. And these are unproven “generational talents”.